Benefits not the same if purchase a resale...is this true?

[bobbiwoz]

I don't think any of this is going to happen.

However, people have always said that using points within the system is the best use of points. I'm surprised at how many people are alarmed at the loss of doing something that mostly wasn't considered worthwhile. Maybe that will cause the loss of retail prices and that's whats causing the outcry.

Many many people were amazed that the price of DCL's Dream vacations were so low, reasonable and posted that here. I took a look and agreed at the cost, but we didn't book using points. I think they just got too many bookings for the system to handle.

 

[tjkraz]

Well, they say it is strictly a cruise availability problem. I suspect there is a DVC component as well. DVC has to pay DCL cash for the cruises, and if they are having trouble renting rooms due to the economic situation, they have to get the money from somewhere. I'm not entirely convinced that the timing of the "lack of availability" matching perfectly with Disney's fiscal year is a total coincidence!

The motivation for cutting off DCL reservations is neither here nor there.

Fact is that demand outpaces supply. So DVC isn't hurting DCL by excluding resale buyers. DVC still has a large enough market to fill all of the cabins it wishes to fill.

Yep, but we both know that with 'outcrys' the relationship between decible level and numbers of people affected is not always 1:1. The people most affected are the ones most inclined to keep the thread going.

I agree that we certainly aren't getting an accurate picture. But it at least demonstrates that there IS demand among membership for all of those non-DVC resorts that many of us have disregarded over the years.

Buyers aren't going to pay a huge premium for direct points just to have access to these destinations, but it does give the sales staff just a little more ammunition to sway decisions.

Not all the points deposited are, in fact, used in exchanges. Sometimes people deposit and then can't get what they want when they want it, and the points go unused and expire. That is particularly common, I suspect, when the deposits are made because the DVC owner missed their banking deadline and had no other option but to lose the points. To the degree that you reduce that kind of breakage, you will reduce the availability for other owners trying to exchange out.

I still don't see your point. I agree that DVC members may not always get what they want from RCI. But once their points are deposited, room(s) are given to RCI so some non-DVC member will benefit.

I don't see where reducing DVC volumes through RCI negatively impacts other members. MY ability to secure a desired room through RCI has no bearing on whether YOU choose (or are permitted) to use RCI.

I think most members would probably rethink possible add-ons knowing that if they need to sell for whatever reason they most probably won't get a reasonable price back.

Some individuals may reconsider but I'm not sure how significant that number will be. Thinking back to the days when I was contemplating my first purchase, I was primarily concerned with the here and now.

Making assumptions about the value of a contract years or decades down the road is an inexact science to begin with.

I guess if I had known about this change, I would purchase most of my points resale for a huge discount than purchasing direct from disney.
Because:
1. We mainly use on DVC property (ok, we've been members for 10 years and only have 1 occassion to use points outside of DVC... at Paradise Pier).
2. Chances of getting reasonable price for resale is better when you buy resale in the first place.

Well, this concept of a pending "huge" drop in resale prices is sort of a self-regulating thing.If you are right and buying decisions will not be particularly swayed by this rumored change, then resale prices will not be impacted either.

DVC would get some additional sales, resale prices would be largely unchanged and members booking cruises would have less competition for the limited availability. Win-win.

I disagree..... it could cost them a lot of business.

I just bought my first resale contract with the intent of using at BWV in 2011 and Aulani in 2012 for a special anniversary. Somebody has brought up that Aulani might be impossible to get at the 7 month mark. I know I can trade 160 points to stay in Hawaii. Had this been announced sooner, I would have just payed my cash for both trips.

First, no resort will be "impossible" to get at 7 months--particularly not one with 500 DVC villas. The only way for a resort to be unavailable at 7 months is for 100% of its owners to fully book the property more than a half-year in advance. Not gonna happen.

Also, you can bet that all of the Hawaii destinations will be removed from RCI once Aulani opens. So that isn't really an option.

 

[mouseaider]

So someone else would have bought your BWV points, and Disney would have your cash. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Nope..... part of it. We've been considering DVC since out tour in 2007 but it didn't make sense to us then. We didn't want to finance and we've saved some money in the meantime so we could pay cash. I bought resale because of BWV location.

As you well know, when you join DVC you are expecting to spend your future vacation $$ with them for a long time to come. They are getting more of my $$ !

I would have stayed at a Mod in January for a much shorter period of time...... and someplace else in Hawaii.... not Aulani. It was a part of our buying into DVC decision.

 

[JimMIA]

Perhaps that is exactly what is happening . Perhaps the "some kind of VIP program" to which you refer will say that directly purchased points can be used for exchanges with DCL, ABD, RCI, etc., while points bought from non-Disney sources cannot. And if someone has a lot of points obtained via the resale markets, then they can pay a fee to convert them to "VIP" status.

Sure, could be. But my main point in that post was that DCL, ABD, and RCI are probably the three least beneficial things they could offer. They'd be better off leaving those alone and creating new incentives to buy direct.

I wonder if the Disney resellers, like TSS, are alerting their customers to a possible change in the value of Disney points bought on the resale market?

Boy, I hope NOT! Can you imagine the panic if the resellers responded to every Disney rumor???

I suppose a reseller could take the stance that since nothing has officially changed, then there is nothing that has to be legally disclosed to buyers.

Or the stance that if there is nothing to disclose, there is nothing to disclose.

But if I was in the market for buying a resale contract, I would definitely hold off buying until I had a better feel for what is happening.

If I were going to leap one way or the other without knowing, I'd buy resale now. I think the likelihood that they grandfather all existing owners is much greater than trying to seperate the wheat from the chaff and angering a huge percentage of their members.

 

[cseca]

...

Well, this concept of a pending "huge" drop in resale prices is sort of a self-regulating thing.If you are right and buying decisions will not be particularly swayed by this rumored change, then resale prices will not be impacted either.

DVC would get some additional sales, resale prices would be largely unchanged and members booking cruises would have less competition for the limited availability. Win-win.

...

I'm crossing my fingers and toes!

 

[mouseaider]

First, no resort will be "impossible" to get at 7 months--particularly not one with 500 DVC villas. The only way for a resort to be unavailable at 7 months is for 100% of its owners to fully book the property more than a half-year in advance. Not gonna happen.

That's nice to hear. Your opinion means a lot to me.

 

[Simba's Mom]

OK, I'm going to throw out some more speculation. I'm wondering if DVC is thinking of getting into the resale market itself and buying out TTS. Paralleling this with Mears. Mears was making a nice little business charging people to shuttle them to WDW. Disney didn't like that some one else was making money off Disney, so they decided to do it themselves. Many, if not all, the DME buses are now formerly Mears. Similarly, in the late 80s-early 90s, Disney built lots of new hotels because they noticed all these hotels around WDW making money off Disney. So maybe they're (DVC) setting themselves up to both buy and sell points, effectively not doing good things to TTS. Just speculation!

 

[lark]

OK, I'm going to throw out some more speculation. I'm wondering if DVC is thinking of getting into the resale market itself and buying out TTS.

I don't know about buying out TTS, but disney hates competition and work hard to undermine. I would expect that anyone earning 15 percent off a product that disney also sells directly would make them take notice. I expect that they would love to figure out a way to capture some money when owners dispose of their timeshares. I think so long as they are also selling new units directly, though, most models would involve them competing with themselves. ROFR, charging for people to upgrade their points for an added 10 years of use, and now possibly creating tiers between resale and direct points seem more likely to me than disney actually getting into the resale business.

Fundamentally, I think ROFR is really a means of getting in the resale business anyway -- it's essentially serving as the middleman between owners who want to sell and new owners who want to buy. Unfortunately for disney, it costs a ton of cash. But, at the end of the day, I think there are probably people within disney for whom figuring out a way to capture some of that 15 percent is an obsession.

 

[wdrl]

Sure, could be. But my main point in that post was that DCL, ABD, and RCI are probably the three least beneficial things they could offer. They'd be better off leaving those alone and creating new incentives to buy direct.

I agree. It didn't take me long to figure out that exchanging my points for DCL, ABD, or RCI was not the best way to use my points. But those exchanges look good and sound good when a prospective buyer takes his or her first look at the program. I remember the first time when I stopped by a DVC kiosk. I hadn't talked to the DVC rep for more than 3 minutes before he let me know that my DVC points could be used for a cruise, skiing in Colorado, or even Disneyland Paris.

Basically, I'm hesitant to see any type of a tiered or VIP program being established. My fear is that, no matter how many points I have, I will always be just a few points short of the really good level.

 

[gkrykewy]

As you well know, when you join DVC you are expecting to spend your future vacation $$ with them for a long time to come. They are getting more of my $$ !

Right, but my point was that if you didn't buy those BWV points, someone else would, and their money for the length of the DVC contract is just as good as yours.

FWIW, I agree with tjkraz -- there's absolutely to reason to think Aulani will have particular issues at 7 months outside of the peak of the peak periods. I'm not sure how that talk got started around here, but it's frankly silly - something a guide would say to promote Aulani add-ons.

 

[JimMIA]

I still don't see your point. I agree that DVC members may not always get what they want from RCI. But once their points are deposited, room(s) are given to RCI so some non-DVC member will benefit.

I'm not explaining it very well.

I'm starting with the assumption that where someone purchases their DVC points has absolutely nothing to do with their likelihood of depositing to RCI. Therefore, the more owners in the pool, the more deposits you will have.

I also know that some percentage of deposited points will not be used and will expire. Those points form a bit of a cushion in RCI availability. If you reduce the size of the cushion everybody has fewer choices.

I don't see where reducing DVC volumes through RCI negatively impacts other members. MY ability to secure a desired room through RCI has no bearing on whether YOU choose (or are permitted) to use RCI.

Your ability is also dependant on RCI availability. It is not a given that all the participating RCI resorts would continue to participate if the inflow of DVC availability was significantly reduced. They don't have very many participating resorts as it is.

 

[Brian Noble]

I'll start by saying that I don't believe for a second that any resale/retail distinction is coming anytime soon. This is completely born out of a sales-fever dream by some "guide".

I disagree..... it could cost them a lot of business.

I just bought my first resale contract with the intent of using at BWV in 2011 and Aulani in 2012 for a special anniversary. Somebody has brought up that Aulani might be impossible to get at the 7 month mark. I know I can trade 160 points to stay in Hawaii. Had this been announced sooner, I would have just payed my cash for both trips.

This wouldn't take away anything from Disney. Disney gets nothing if you buy resale. Zip. Zero. Nada. Sure, you'd be paying dues, but if the Member doesn't sell to you, *that Member* has to pay dues. And, until that Member sells, the Member is likely to use those points for *something*---and that something eventually puts "heads in beds" in a DVC resort.

Resale has zero value to the company, except (indirectly) as a story to tell the prospective purchaser who doesn't want to own for the duration of the contract for some reason. That's pretty marginal.

don't think anyone would expect DVC to grandfather all existing owners into a new VIP program. When I talk about grandfathering, I'm saying I don't think they would take away benefits from longtime members who happened to buy resale. Or folks like us, who bought first resale and later direct -- what do you do with us? And there are a LOT OF US!

I agree that some "new" benefit is the most likely. However, it is *certainly* possible that distinctions can be made, made retroactively, and apply on a fine grain basis even to individual owners with a mix of point sources. Disney already knows where points came from---it would not be hard to change the booking management software to take that into account. Many other systems (with even less-capable IT departments and larger ownership bases) already have done this.

Now, while I think this particular rumor sounds like major BS, I do expect that, someday, in some way, Disney will eventually adopt some policies that favor developer purchases. The market just speaks too loudly on this question. Almost every "major" timeshare developer has, at some point, taken steps to devalue the product on the secondary market. Starwood doesn't transfer points at newer resorts, and you can't use resales to generate points for their hotel affinity program. Wyndham has the VIP and PlusPartners programs. WorldMark has TravelShare. BlueGreen reserves their tiered recognition program to new sales or resales only through an approved reseller with a floor on price. Marriott's new points program requires a re-enrollment fee (around $2-$3K) on a points resale, and you *can't* enroll resale weeks. Diamond doesn't transfer points membership on resale at all---you revert to the base ownership that was placed in The Club.

The only exception I can think of is Hilton. I suspect that's partly because Hilton's timeshare system is rather small, and so resale just isn't a big issue for them.

You might think ROFR is all they need. But, it's not. ROFR doesn't establish the price---the free market does. And, we've seen this---even when DVC was actively ROFRing deeds back in 2009, prices were still collapsing. ROFR only allows Disney to buy inventory without having to competitively bid for it, and in an efficient market, that actually *depresses* resale prices slightly. And, with several well-known brokers and a transparent resale ecosystem, DVC is about as efficient as it gets when it comes to timeshare resale markets. And, as the Membership grows, more and more inventory will come available for resale. Unless the population of potential resale buyers also increases, resale prices *must* go down.

Basically, I'm hesitant to see any type of a tiered or VIP program being established. My fear is that, no matter how many points I have, I will always be just a few points short of the really good level.

If a loyalty recognition program comes to pass, I don't think you should fear this so much as expect it. This is *precisely* the point behind such systems.

 

[gkrykewy]

I'll start by saying that I don't believe for a second that any resale/retail distinction is coming anytime soon. This is completely born out of a sales-fever dream by some "guide".

I thought it was three guides?

 

[Brian Noble]

It is not a given that all the participating RCI resorts would continue to participate if the inflow of DVC availability was significantly reduced. They don't have very many participating resorts as it is.

I think you have this backwards. The "participating" resorts (i.e. the ones that DVC Members can exchange into) are chosen by DVC, not RCI. The set of RCI affiliated resorts is much larger. What's more, you don't need to own at a "participating" resort to exchange *into* DVC. You just need sufficient trade power/enough points.

RCI resort affiliation is determined initially by the resort developer, so it depends more on the deal the developer gets than it does any tangible benefits to individual owners. Wholesale changes generally don't happen, but when they do, again they are done by the developer while still in control of the BOD, and again that party doesn't always have the owners' best interests in mind.

Going forward, resorts that are owner-managed can choose to affiliate with a new exchange system, but they generally *don't* remove existing affiliations. I own at an owner-managed resort that is dual-affiliated with both Interval and RCI.

 

[Anjelica]

I thought it was three guides?

I read it as three different guides as well. If it was one I would say someone has lost their mind but now you have three different guides with "similar" stories. It makes me think something is going on - but what exactly has yet to be determined.

 

[mouseaider]

I agree with tjkraz -- there's absolutely to reason to think Aulani will have particular issues at 7 months outside of the peak of the peak periods. I'm not sure how that talk got started around here, but it's frankly silly - something a guide would say to promote Aulani add-ons.

Thanks .... you guys are making me feel better about this. I don't need my wife upset at me any more than she usually is !

 

[gkrykewy]

Thanks .... you guys are making me feel better about this. I don't need my wife upset at me any more than she usually is !

As always, best to call right at 7 months! For the record, I was able to easily book a week at GCV at 7 months for halloweentime, and that's 50 units compared to 500 at Aulani.

 

[Brian Noble]

I thought it was three guides?

One of the interesting things about timeshare salesmen: as soon as one of them finds a line that gets around some potential mark's objection, they tend to share that line with others on the sales staff to "help them out."

"Yeah, I had one with the hook all the way set, and was about to reel him in. He was really excited about cruising---that was what turned the corner---when he brought up resale. 'Well, you know, I've heard that soon you won't be able to use resale points for cruise bookings. That's not public yet, but it's coming.' Ten minutes later, I had the sale. You might want to try that if you run into another one of those resale nuts."

This one just has all the hallmarks of a sales-floor BS job. The "secret meeting" shtick is a dead giveaway.

I could be wrong---it wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last---but this one doesn't pass the sniff test.

Edited to add: I'll also bet you a mickeybar that several of the Guides read these boards. You can imagine that a Guide wouldn't mind forwarding along some FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) with regards to resales.

 

[nytimez]

OK, I'm going to throw out some more speculation. I'm wondering if DVC is thinking of getting into the resale market itself and buying out TTS. Paralleling this with Mears. Mears was making a nice little business charging people to shuttle them to WDW. Disney didn't like that some one else was making money off Disney, so they decided to do it themselves. Many, if not all, the DME buses are now formerly Mears. Similarly, in the late 80s-early 90s, Disney built lots of new hotels because they noticed all these hotels around WDW making money off Disney. So maybe they're (DVC) setting themselves up to both buy and sell points, effectively not doing good things to TTS. Just speculation!

I though DME is run by Mears. Did I miss something?

 

[mouseaider]

As always, best to call right at 7 months! For the record, I was able to easily book a week at GCV at 7 months for halloweentime, and that's 50 units compared to 500 at Aulani.

Thanks for the advice. I knew that, but I'm trying to push the post count on this thread over 400 by tomorrow for Charlie.