Behavior Challenge Thread

[bookwormde]

Mechurchlady

Yes and we have to have a room where you are another planet where all innate social standards are not considered valid and you have to figure the “new ones” without this reference. And also where speech is totally literal, most input is high speed visual and strict logic prevails.

bookwormde

 

[C&G'sMama]

DDM,

I'm sorry to hear about your school. Me and DP are huge boat rockers. Not for the sake of rocking the boat, but we had some huge issues when DD was in 1st grade. There were 3 different classroom teachers plus several substitutes. Parents were never informed about what was going on including the false report cards our kids recieved (we parents figured that one when comparing our kids cards, because there were things that didn't make sense). There were also all kinds of procedures not being followed. We went to the district. They tried the race card (which our district will do no matter what ethnicity you are, it's one of their tools). Only it back fired when they found out that other parents in our group were white, AA, Hispanic, bi-racial couple etc. So then they implied we had too much money (that's funny huh) until again, we showed we ran the gammut and on it went. Little by little the other parents gave up and pulled their kids out of the school and sent them elsewhere. We hung on for almost 2 years but gave up. But we had somewhere to go. This is when we originally were going to homeschool. But then DD's number came up in a Charter School.

But if you don't have any other options I understand how you are in a pickle. I guess I wouldn't have seen your request to have him portray a man unusual given the circumstances. But it sounds like you've come up with a good solution.

Good Luck.

 

[Brightsy]

Re: The homework thing.
I tried to let the kids unwind first after school and then do homework, for us it didn't work. My older sons meds wear off an hour or so after he gets home and for him homework is more easily finished on the meds.
So it's become our routine now to do homework pretty much as soon as they walk in the door. They get a snack and a drink at the dining table while they work. I stay nearby, in the case of my youngest I go over the directions on his homework and ensure he uses his best writing. (Otherwise it's a mess.) He's in a self-contained 1st/2nd grade classroom and usually only has one or maybe two short worksheets a day to do. He's usually done in 5 minutes. My older son is in the 4th grade and somedays has lots of work and others not so much or any at all. They both walk in the door, get their stuff out and get to work. Then they have about another 45 minutes or so (for a total of an hour once they cross the threshold) where they can do what they want so long as it doesn't involve the computer or tv or handheld games (unless they have homework invloving said items). They can play w/ legos, play w/ friends outside, read, write, do artsy stuff, work on their Cub Scout stuff, cook w/ mommy, whatever. After the hours up they can fiddle w/ the computer or watch TV until dinner time. After dinner we usually play a game as a family, or watch TV together. Sometimes my older DS and I or my DH will play on the computer together... it seems to work for us, and they seem pretty ok with things.

 

[BeckyScott]

I think the Late To School ride would work best if the kids were in charge. Of course, they think squealing into school is funny, so it wouldn't be an effective lesson. Maybe work out better as a computer game, something like Diner Dash, every level add more kids and more to do... However, I am quite intrigued by ChurchLady's dunking booth, now that is something I could really get into. I have a list of potential "guests".

DisDreamin, reading about your DS watching videos, I thought about my DS who is a big fan of Wii Music. You can play an instrument or you can conduct. He likes to conduct. (I don't know if there's a French Horn, I never looked) It's one of the only Wii games that he can play by himself. It's nice, cause he's learning too, there is some classical music on there which he can now identify the piece and the composer. I'm sure that will come in handy later.

Gosh, I am worn out this morning, it's beyond coffee. It's been a busy week. And I hear thunder outside. Ugh. I don't even wanna look out the window.

 

[Mel6197]

Kira is 11 and Autistic

She has Self Control issues, when she is upset she BLASTS out, and 2 seconds later, she is calm again

So our BIGGEST Problem with her behaviors is Babys or Kids crying. She cant CANT handle the sound, it hurts her ears, she lashes out at any kid crying by insulting them yelling at them,

It starts off with Kira scanning the area, looking for problem children, She spots one and her eyes LOCK like they are on Prey.
As the child escalates, she then will SCREAM at the kid to shut up

For example.
CRT last year, You all know how small that place is. We walk in, nice nice.. 4 year old starts SCREAMING crying with a temper, Kira at the TOP of her very big lungs, (she looks like she is 15) Screams at this kid to SHUT UP.. Lets put it this way, the mom ran off before I could explain, and the ENTIRE place turned and looked at us..

Same thing on the Bus.

I have Headphones that Help, but she is gettin much worse with this as she gets older..

 

[mechurchlady]

Mel6197 big hugs and chocolates for you.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2542921
REad about the boy in that article

Your daughter had sensory issues and needs retraining on how to handle the noise that bothers her. First is to reduce sensory overload and second is training so that when she is overwhelmed she does not act out. She is like a person who once was bit by a dog and now hides from dogs. She sees babies and instinctively will go into her screaming fit. You have to stop it with training and getting clinicians who know about SID/SPD and other sensory issues.

Also testing of hearing is needed. Also testing of babies crying but not visible. Does she scream at the sound of a baby softly crying or is it just loud screaming that hurts her. If she watches television and screams when a baby cries off stage then it is the sound. If a baby cries off stage and she does not react then she may have developed a fear reaction to seeing babies and little kids because of past hurts.

It is a lot of detective work to have a neurovariant kid especially autistism and Sensory Integration Disorder.

Hugs and Chocolates
Laurie

 

[DisDreaminMom]

Wow, I don't even know how I would deal with this. I mean, what can you do? You need some very intense concerted behavior modification and SOON! Can you imagine what will happen with that as she gets older? Have you considered some training for her on this?

I would attack this problem like a dog or horse being reactive. Is there anyone like a therapist who can help you "desensitize" her? Does she even know she's doing it? Can she think through an alternate behavior that she can substitute for personally admonishing the culprit? Can you see it coming and head it off? I think it would make going anywhere except the morgue a possible crisis.

Tell us more about what she does, if she is even aware of the issue, and maybe we can brainstorm. I worry for you and her- new laws have been passed that make this type of behavior legally "assault". I really feel for you. What a pickle.

A new friend just moved here from another country and has a 9 year old son with seizures and behavior problems. After a week at the new school here in KY, the principal called her and told her that her son "poked a child with a pencil" and now the other kid's lawyer father was threatening a lawsuit against the school and the family. It didn't even draw blood, he was just trying to get his attention. And since the child has an out of country IEP, it doesn't count and the school system will not make any modifications or special actions until the mom can get her son in the "earliest" appointment with a doctor at the local university to again diagnose him next month. Until then, he's just a thug kid attacking everyone.

I'm past rocking the boat. If Obama is so into Charter Schools, then I want to start one myself. It would be for Aspie kids and those that are either highly intelligent or have parents that are. We would be outside as much as possible (with fans and tents if necessary), kids would physically have to work out math problems, teachers would all have Master's degrees, music, dance, and astro physics would be compulsory from Pre-K on. Time out would involve a recliner and classical music or a few minutes in the barn with some fluffy bunnies and adult supervision. We would have a line of fence posts with every size and tone bell hung on it and kids would be allowed time to ring the bells. Fans would be everywhere. All lights have dimmers, each room has brighter and lower lit areas. Each kid would pick a personal project and work on it for the semester. Trips would be to the planetarium, downtown tour of architecture, University library, and IKEA. It would be like Montessori on steroids. I bet I could make it a success with less money than a regular public school requires. (Our local artsy-farsty montessori is over $10K a year and they allow NO behavior issues whatsoever- would not even talk to me about DS when they found out he was Aspie- and the funny thing is that Montessori is the best model for our kids except they need the Executive Function added back into it).

Becky, my school would have a uniform that was designed by you, tagless, waistband buttonless, and totally soft. Our fundraisers would be clothing sales, GF baked goods, and a dairy/organic egg co-op. Kids would be in charge of marketing, business model, labor, etc. HOW MUCH FUN WOULD THAT BE?

 

[BeckyScott]

So if I design the uniforms, I get free tuition, right?

All the kids from kg on would have their own laptop with wi-fi, and everything transcribed onto that (for their benefit and also so the parents would know what was going on) and their homework done that way if they prefer.

Annual spelling bee, which would be like the best spelling bee ever in the United States.

Professional sabbaticals, where professionals in technical industries could come teach for a semester on the subject of their specialty.

The school cafeteria would have 4 choices every day- gf/cf, Feingold, everything mushy, and everything crispy. And a personal note, we'd need to have both curly fries and straight fries available, because they are not interchangable. We'd need some really rockin' cafeteria ladies, but if you pay them what they deserve...

My DH is gone a lot, too. I get them up and out and do all homework, etc. He puts them to bed every once in a while. I feel bad asking him to do much. He's tired and his is not the safest job. Being tired is too much of a liability. I used to get miffed about it, but I like eating and paying bills, so I got over it. Plus, he's willing and able to be the heavy in our house (wait 'till your father gets home!) and that is worth so much these days.

I really do think we're living parallel lives, almost to the point of freaky.

Mel, it sounds like your daughter is almost looking for the opportunity? I can't really tell by your post. I know my oldest DS (also 11) has what I call a very short fuse. And he's starting puberty and it has gotten worse. It's not sensory for him though, because he will put up with it from younger children, but not from his brother. Or, he will put up with it when he's out in public because he's learned the social norm, but won't at home because he doesn't feel pressured to conform here. Something like that. I think there is specific therapy to help de-sensitize, I can't remember what it's called. Have you tried just asking her (when she's calm) why she screams? She might not be able to tell you, but then again she might come up with an answer that will help you toward helping her.

 

[mechurchlady]

I at times think like the dog trainer around kids, lol. Basically it is the same principal. No choke chain but reward and encourage good behavior works. For every problem child there are sources for the behavior.

I instinctively arch my back if someone touches it. That is a learned behavior that is defensive to protect the damaged back. That is why something early on like sensitivity caused to her instinctively react to kids.

I send all of you Chocolates and hugs.
Will there be programs for us adults?

Can I live at your school? Will you take mom, please.

Laurie

 

[bookwormde]

Mel6197

Welcome

The current theory about compulsivity is that the vast majority of actions by neurotypicals as part of there process before becoming action are filtered through the portion of the mind that has developed from the innate societal social skills genetics. For spectrum individuals this simply does not exist and is only filtered by intellectual portion of the brain. There have been some very convincing studies done with brain scans to support this. Repetitive imprinting of intellectual societal social skills seems to be the only effective way to reduce “impulsivity”. There are good indications that this is part of the reason why spectrum individual are able to develop innovative ideas because the thought process is not “limited” by this same filter (along with the overall non liner/ non discriminatory EF system).

I do not know if your child will tolerate sound limiting devices like earplugs and headphones but this can be quite effective if they are always available and are practiced with. One good thing is that wearing headphones around had become very socially acceptable.

 

[C&G'sMama]

Dis Dreamin'

Not a bad idea. I know you're tongue in cheek (sort of) but that's the beauty of Charter Schools. They can be whatever the people who write the charter want it to be as long as the kids perform better than those in their home district. And the beauty is, no tuition. The money from the home district follos the children. It gives the local schools competition. They aren't limited by union rules. Yes, the kids have to meet state standards but they can do things more unconventionally. There's one here that's connected to the Local Museum and Science Center and uses the expeditionary model of learning. It's very cool and very hard to get into.

But any way...

Can I sign up? Maybe we could have an interstate charter school. Part of the charter would require at least 2 field trips to Disney World a year. The kids could be imagineers for a day. They could develop "Spectrum Land". Could you imagine what that would look like? It would be so cool.

Maybe some days the states and schools will realize all our kids don't fit into the same box.

 

[Mel6197]

Ive worked with OT and Making her listen to Babies crying.. We have been working on it for over a year, and Nada.

When she sees a baby on TV, she Mutes, and changes the channel,
I ask her when she is calm why she freaks out, she says becuase it hurts her ears, I tell her well is screaming at a baby going to make it stop, she says No it wont, it will make him cry more, She really understands what and why her reactions are wrong, she just cant control herself,

If we are out in a big area, Like a store, She does tell me lets walk away, (okay she more like PULLS me)
But when we are in confined spaces, Buses, Checkout lines, (no escape) she freaks, 99% of the time its a verbal assualt. (put a sock in it) (shut up) etc..
Ear Muff are what I use while we are in Disneyworld, and stuck on the bus, and she does fine, and I know the ear muffs to block the sound at all, Just her comfort level, and she can handle it better.

But sometimes those crying babies sneak up on you. She really reminds me of a dog that is about to attack (Verbally) She locks her eyes on them, even if I try to block her vision, and physically turn her face she pushes right back into starring them down.

Kira is not on Any Meds, I really hate to do it, She is on the high honor roll of the middle school and she does well,
But at 5'8 180lbs I think it might be time to do something else..

 

[BeckyScott]

Okay, how do I teach empathy? Does anyone know any specific curriculum, maybe?

This is what happened last night. In a nutshell. I have been feeling yucky for the past week. I finally went to the dr yesterday afternoon (so the kids were with me) and she said it is a bad UTI and I got some scripts. Okay. But I've been nauseous and my digestive system has been out of whack for about a week.

So then we go home. Last week, and the week before, oldest DS had requested cans of chicken noodle soup from the grocery store. He's eaten a few, I've eaten a few. Well yesterday at lunch-time I was completely nauseous and feeling awful and I ate the last can of chicken noodle soup. I looked thru the pantry, briefly, trying to find something to eat that I thought I could keep down, etc, and that was the only thing I spotted. (I'm sure I'm not the only one that's done this, chicken noodle soup is good "sick food") Dinner rolls around, and DS wants chicken noodle soup and it's gone. And I explained that I wasn't feeling well and my stomach is really bad and that was the only thing in the pantry that I could eat.

What I encountered was a serious lack of empathy situation. He was mad, mad, mad. It was his soup. I could have eaten something else. Mad.

Okay, I know the "not fair bug" is in play, I get that. I took his soup. Not fair. However, seriously, I'm sick. I wasn't being vindictive.

He asked me how I'd feel if he ate something I'd bought for myself. Well, to begin with, he does that all the time. But I told him, if he was sick and needed to eat "my" food, something special I'd bought for myself, that I would let him and I wouldn't be mad. And that we needed to work on thinking about how other people feel, that other people have feelings, etc. It was a fairly long and fairly awful conversation and I totally hit a brick wall.

This is a recurrent issue, I know I've posted about it plenty, and it's probably the single biggest "symptom" that DS has, as far as the spectrum goes. To say it's frustrating is an understatement. This past week has been really bad that way, I don't feel good so I've asked the boys several times to chill out, to get along, mommy is feeling very bad and she can't handle screaming and arguing, and it's gotten me nowhere.

I don't know how to even approach this. I can talk to the SpEd teacher and ask her to help me out. But. I mean, I "get" that the lack of empathy is part of the package with the spectrum and I that I need to respect the non-neuro-typical-ness of it all, and that I shouldn't try to change the way they are. Etc etc. But we're over the line here. I don't want to be graphic, but your mom is sitting on the toilet in pain, on the verge of tears, driving you home very quickly because she's afraid she's gonna puke, and you're pissed because she ate your soup. We gotta work on that, I'll put up with a lot but that's beyond.

 

[bookwormde]

Becky


I am not sure if at the core you are dealing with an empathy issue, but more a “rule” based issue that has to be gotten past before he can ”engage” empathy. Remember our children are very strict logic/rule based until we teach and practice the “gray” areas which are driven by complex social standards, this is the most complex and illogical of all the societal social skills and NTs make “errors" in this area all the time. NT society lies and changes the rules all the time after stating that lying is wrong and rules should be followed.

I am sure that he has been told that taking others “property” is “wrong”, as with most social rules there are endless exception so teaching this “flexibility" is a major challenge.

This is one of those “teachable movements”, not about empathy but about variance from base rules.

bookwormde

 

[BeckyScott]

Bookwormde, that's a good thought. I see what you mean, he's very black-and-white about stuff and stealing is wrong. So the gray area of that, okay, I understand what you're saying. And it could have been, perhaps, if he had been home and I had asked first, and explained the circumstances, that he would have "given" me the soup. But he wasn't here and wasn't part of the decision. So I could see how he could interpret it as stealing. Hmmm. Let me think on that a little bit. But even with that, how do I teach the concept? Do I have to teach each individual gray area as it comes up? Is it even possible to do that? He has trouble even understanding the concept of gray areas, much less the specifics.

The irony of it is that it's happened with other food in the house, that he has no problem eating other people's food, if he sees it it's fair game, but it doesn't work the other way around. So that confuses me. His logic is telling him that if he's hungry, to go get food from the kitchen. And even food that is obviously not intended for him, if he wants it, it's gone. (for example: the gluten-free stuff I buy for youngest DS, which he knows is "allergy food" I have bought for his brother, but if it looks yummy...)

So in that way, I'm not sure if it's rule-based or empathy-based. Rule-based I'd think that not stealing would apply all the way around. But empathy-based would have him putting himself first period. Or it might be a little of both.

Mel, I had a random thought. How about instead of just noise-cancelling, you got her an iPod. So it wasn't just muffling the noise, but there was some other "noise" playing for her to block it even further? Not all the time, but when you're going into those situations where you can see the potential. An iPod loaded with her favorite tunes, and those are really trendy so she'll feel cool. If she cranks it up loud enough (in theory not great for kids to do but in the situation maybe a good option), a bunch of Miley Cyrus in her ear, might block the baby noise enough. And also the iPod she can mess around with the buttons and such, which might give her something to do to distract from her surroundings. It could be problematic because then she won't be able to hear you as well, but I think you could work around that. I mean, it's a band-aid, but it might work for now while you work on the other skills.

 

[mechurchlady]

Here is my theory.

Once long ago I met an old dog who would attack the front door when she heard a water bottle clank on the step. That dog hated water bottle delivery people. Clank = attack.

You kid is like that dog so to speak. Kids = painful noise
You are going to have to work with her on handling first on television crying babies. Reward her, make her at ease and slowly work with her step by step so when she sees on a video a crying baby muted she will handle that. It will take a lot of fighting and work. Your going to have to undo years of a bad habit that came from something traumatic.

I abhor dentists because of trauma mentally from a dentist so that I cannot lay down in a dentist chair without freaking out. I have removed bit by bit my broken teeth and have not seen a dentist in over 30 years except in an emergency. I used to be so bad that I could not watch the 1-800-dentist advertisements.

People develop instinctive reactions like running from a chihuahua that is tootless, old, arthritic and on a leash because they fear dogs irrationally.

Hugs and chocolates
Laurie

I got the Apria check for what they owe us for over paying. I now own a Disney Credit card, my first card in years.

With coupons at CVS drug store I bought to regular sized packages of Chips Ahoy cookies, a disposable camera and 10 packages of Depends in the new 16 count size for $59 and $69 for a total of $128 then I got $18 cash back and an $8 coupon on anything in the store. Subtracting the cookies and camera and I spent only about $90 for 160 diapers, omg, them usually are $1 each diaper. Get the smelling salts, love that credit card.

==========

Becky I send you coffeee and hugs. The problem is the kid takes you literally. I hpe you get it worked out. Remember that when the "Not Fair Bug" hits the person may be the sweetest person in the world who would give you their home to stay in and food on your table but THAT IS NOT FAIR rules. I will be helping someone this month with money but if you wake up Mr. Not Fair then forget all my acts and deeds. Even NT kids get bit by him, lol

hugs and coffee and glad to see you wide awake.

 

[bookwormde]

Becky

My thought and experience are that the anxiety created by “rule breaking” grossly interferes with the natural empathic (and sympathetic) abilities of our children.

As I said this is one of the top few difficult skills for our children to develop. I have begun using a model from the fire service. We have rules that you just do not break (like driving the apparatus after consuming alcohol, drugs for medications which might impair.), and then we have standard operating guidelines (or procedures) SOG (or SOP) like first piece of apparatus in lays a supply line. They are rules which lacking any unusual or extenuating circumstances are followed but with adequate analysis and thought may be varied from with “justification”. Making this differentiation as you work through your child’s “Rules” and practicing scenarios where it would be appropriate to vary form a SOG will hopefully help to generalize the skill. Like I said it is a very broad and challenging set of skills to develop and is constantly changing with maturity and environment.

Writing these documents (for the fire service) has given me an extra appreciation of how “vague” and “inaccurate” our societal rules really are and why they present such a challenge for spectrum individuals with their lacking a major section of there brain dedicated to learning and processing innate and “absorbed” social skills.

bookwormde

 

[Disneylvr]

Madelyn, almost 6 and with non-verbal autism, has started biting people at school and at home. Sometimes it is when she is anger, you can tell by her facial expression, but more often it just seems to happen for no reason even when she is in a good mood. Yesterday it happened while the kids were all waiting in the cafeteria for the buses to arrive. She was happy, cheerful and then all of a sudden she bit the cheek of the girl sitting next to her. Thankfully she did not break the skin and the child is fine (I am sure her parents aren't happy though) but she has broke the skin and buised her one on one aide a couple of times in the past. This is only the second time she has bit another student, usually an adult is the victim. We have created social stories and PEC's cards about biting. We have a book called "Teeth Are Not For Biting" at home and at school. Madelyn can go days even weeks without an incident and then boom, it happens again. Everything is documented and we have yet to find the trigger. I have requested that Madelyn wait for her bus in a more quiet location and out of the noisy cafeteria but the biting has occurred in all environments. Any ideas? If it becomes more frequent a behavior plan will have to be written according to the teacher.

 

[KirstenB]

Becky, You've presented a really tough problem. You've posted before about your older son and the empathy issue. I don't know what the answer is. Even is he isn't empathetic, there has to be a way to teach him to "fake" it.

Disneylvr, does Madelyn use a chewy tube? Our dd Zoe is much younger, but has a strong need to bite and chew things, and just stick them in her mouth in general. I was hoping this would go away, but since it isn't, and she's is now chewing on her shirts, I ordered several chewy tubes last week. It sounds like the biting isn't at all related to an emotional situation, or like she's biting someone to hurt them.

 

[bookwormde]

Disneylvr

From my limited experience, this sometimes becomes a “substitute” for communication so isolating it out to specific triggers could be very difficult since if they are only that secondary trigger to the “communication frustration” there is almost an infinite number of secondary causes. Does she have a library of PEC symbols for some of the more basic social communication “requests” (basic emotions, greetings etc.). It is just a “gut” feeling but my feeling is that is frustration about not being able to communicate (either socially or about needs) may be the broader trigger. Rather then trying to stop the manifestation it might be better to divert her to a less “damaging” one, like clapping her hand together loudly, and then work your way down to less and less “disturbing” manifestations while you are working on the skills to help with the core trigger.

It certainly could be a sensory trigger but usually this becomes apparent relative quickly.

As KristenB said the need for oral sensory stimulation could be a factor also

bookwormde