Beating a dead horse

[dumbo71]

So, Sammie's info was wrong.


And, it looks like the restrooms may well indeed be cleaned by non Disney employees. That would explain thenoticeable and rapid decline.

I haven't always agreed with Sammie but to say his info. is wrong is a little much.

I would be willing to bet on his information not some rumor mill article.

 

[Granny]

I haven't always agreed with Sammie but to say her info. is wrong is a little much.

I would be willing to bet on her information not some rumor mill article.

I agree this doesn't make all of Sammie's comments "wrong". Just a clarification, IMHO.

As for "rumor mill article", this was reported in the Orlando Sentinel, and they are citing "Disney officials" and specifically Spokesperson Jacquee Polak as confirming the information. In the world of internet rumors, that article qualifies as hard fact.

 

[jimmytammy]

For me personally(dont mean to be crude here)what stood out the most was at urinals. Each trip, the urinals have gotten worse, floor area, etc. This I know is the fault of the person using the restroom, but WDW used to be on top of things in that you didnt see this as being common. I would hope it was just me being picky, but DW and DD agreed that things are getting worse in their restrooms as well.

It just seems like another nail in the coffin in the service area if valet is outsourced. We have gotten to know the guys at least by face at WL. They are always courteous and very helpful. I dont know how credible the article was.

Again, I go back to being a small owner of something that has given me and my family several years of happiness. I just hope the Disney Co. will continue to offer the kind of service we have come to know, quality that exceeds all other resorts like it, and doesnt let the almighty dollar be its final say. I am a shareholder too, but became one not because of my belief of its making money, knew that would happen. Its been a moneymaker for years. Naive as it is, I became a shareholder because of the quality I saw in it after that 1st trip to WDW.

I am looking forward to WDW sending that card in the mail asking how my latest trip went at WDW and VWL. As always, the stay was great, but this time the comment card will be filled with these feelings of a downward spiral, all in the name of the bottom line.

Not meaning to come across so negative, just think its time they start listening to our concerns, and taking them to heart.

 

[jodifla]

Where did you see that restrooms are no longer cleaned by WDW employees?

From the story:

Yet the mix of cleaning and customer service is an important part of the job and one that Disney customers frequently expect, said former Fort Wilderness custodian Luz Martinez, 41, of Davenport, who left in November 2005 rather than switch to a day shift when her job was outsourced.

"I was a custodian, I cleaned and took care of the guests. I was a runner also," she said. "I dealt with housecleaning, getting them what they needed."

It would be shocking if outsourced people did their jobs as well as Disney employees. They have no sense of ownership at all.

 

[Sammie]

So, Sammie's info was wrong.


And, it looks like the restrooms may well indeed be cleaned by non Disney employees. That would explain thenoticeable and rapid decline.

You know I could care less what you believe at this point, you obviously are going to believe what suits your agenda.

Just because something is printed in the Sentinel does not make it completely accurate. I called the BW and spoke directly to the Executive offices. You are welcome to do the same, I would be interested in what you find out.

My info was about bellman, and valet at the BW. As to custodial I did not ask.

What are you basing your assumption that my info was wrong. I have seen nothing in print to confirm that my info was wrong. I did not discuss other locations, as I did not check on other location, I asked about the situation at the BW and that is what I posted. If you can post fact that this is not the case, I will be glad to change my information.

 

[jodifla]

You know I could care less what you believe at this point, you obviously are going to believe what suits your agenda.

Just because something is printed in the Sentinel does not make it completely accurate. I called the BW and spoke directly to the Executive offices. You are welcome to do the same, I would be interested in what you find out.

My info was about bellman, and valet at the BW. As to custodial I did not ask.

What are you basing your assumption that my info was wrong.

The news story at the Sentinel. So you think the news story was wrong, and your info was correct?

That's great if that's true. But as a reporter myself, I know that these stories are normally verified pretty well. And if they are wrong, corrections are run.

Since the information was from a Disney spokeperson who is authorized to talk to the media, I assume it's accurate.

News stories are snapshots of the day, and can change, but normally spokepeople don't comment on something like this unless they are pretty sure.

I'm not sure of the credentials of the person you spoke to, so maybe they just weren't in the loop on this one.

But I'd much rather your information be correct, for the good of all of us. I didn't mean it as a slam, but you are kind of being quoted all over the place, and this news story seems to say something quite different.

 

[Sammie]

The news story at the Sentinel. So you think the news story was wrong, and your info was correct?

That's great if that's true. But as a reporter myself, I know that these stories are normally verified pretty well. And if they are wrong, corrections are run.

Since the information was from a Disney spokeperson who is authorized to talk to the media, I assume it's accurate.

News stories are snapshots of the day, and can change, but normally spokepeople don't comment on something like this unless they are pretty sure.

I'm not sure of the credentials of the person you spoke to, so maybe they just weren't in the loop on this one.

But I'd much rather your information be correct, for the good of all of us. I didn't mean it as a slam, but you are kind of being quoted all over the place, and this news story seems to say something quite different.

Did the story say that bellman taking luggage to the rooms at the BW would be outsourced?

The news story is reporting what the union told them, did it state official Disney's side? I missed that if it did and as I said if you can show in the Sentinel where Disney said it would be all bellman then I will retract mine.

I was told that outsource will park cars and unload them. They will not go into the hotel or to the rooms. Actually nothing is concrete at this time, negotiations are still going on. If the Sentinel is pro union, then even the facts can be stretched to reflect that. As I reporter I am sure you know that.

If I seem irritable about this, I am not used to having my word doubted. I would not post something that was not accurate based on what I was told by the Executive office of the BW. Could it change, sure but that was what I was told the other day.

I see nothing in the article posted that makes my thread not true. The only thing that was stated by a Disney official was this.

Spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said Disney World has long outsourced some jobs and will pursue any creative, smart and efficient business moves that make sense.

How does that disprove my comments about bellman and valet.

 

[jodifla]

Did the story say that bellman taking luggage to the rooms at the BW would be outsourced?

The news story is reporting what the union told them, did it state official Disney's side? I missed that if it did and as I said if you can show in the Sentinel where Disney said it would be all bellman then I will retract mine.

I was told that outsource will park cars and unload them. They will not go into the hotel or to the rooms. Actually nothing is concrete at this time, negotiations are still going on. If the Sentinel is pro union, then even the facts can be stretched to reflect that. As I reporter I am sure you know that.

If I seem irritable about this, I am not used to having my word doubted. I would not post something that was not accurate based on what I was told by the Executive office of the BW. Could it change, sure but that was what I was told the other day.

I see nothing in the article posted that makes my thread not true. The only thing that was stated by a Disney official was this.



How does that disprove my comments about bellman and valet.

Well, I was going by the following graphs in the story:

The Service Trades Council Union, a coalition of six labor organizations at Disney World, plans to rally at noon today outside the Disney Crossroads gate. The union will protest Disney's decisions to give custodial, valet, bellhop, baggage handler, rigger and video tech jobs to private contractors.

But that is changing next month, when Disney turns over, by its count, 167 baggage, valet and bellhop jobs to Baggage Airlines Guest Service, the private company that now handles baggage transfers for Disney's Magical Express service. The Transportation and Communications Union estimates that 219 jobs will be lost.

 

[DVCconvert]

Sammie...

I am not used to having my word doubted.

...it's time to switch to decaf!!!

 

[goalie5hole]

if unions are involved, it aint gonna get better

I am in a union and I'm not a big fan of unions. But with the way corporate greed is,you need them. These people make a small wage as it is.Can you imagine what they would get if a union didn't negotiate benefits,wages and rights for them.

 

[Sammie]

Sammie...


...it's time to switch to decaf!!!

Don't drink coffee, but thanks for the suggestion, Ceejay just posted a confirmation of what I was told from being there at the BW and talking to Jim Lewis. I will take a first hand account from someone that has been there and from someone that works there, over the paper anyday.

 

[bicker]

And I'll believe what you report over what she reports. You've earned that level of believability.

 

[mrsdon]

Im a newly hired CM and work with a LOT of long timers.
I wont say where, but it saddens me because they have no enthusiam and are just putting in their time.
They are not at risk for getting fired, because they have the seniority.
Maybe thats the case with the cleaning...
They just dont care,
I was deployed to a different location last night and had a few guests tell me about uncaring CMs across the board.
But I will try to find out from the valet CM's themselves

 

[jodifla]

Don't drink coffee, but thanks for the suggestion, Ceejay just posted a confirmation of what I was told from being there at the BW and talking to Jim Lewis. I will take a first hand account from someone that has been there and from someone that works there, over the paper anyday.

Thanks for the update. We'll see how it all plays out. Disney spokepeople normally don't misrepresent the facts to the press, but perhaps it was in the way the story was put together.

 

[snowbunny]

Of course no one said that they "want" dirty rest rooms -- what they've said is that they want low prices, and they don't make their purchasing decisions based on rest room cleanliness.

I will go out on a limb and say that no one purchases a vacation to WDW based on its low prices, either. The decline in rest room cleanliness has not been accompanied by reduced or even flat ticket prices.

Outsourcing and reduction in custodial staff are driven by one thing and one thing only: maximizing profits, euphemistically known as "shareholder value."

As to unions being the source of all evil, next time you or a family member is hospitalized, if you receive adequate or better nursing care, it will be because a nurses' union has fought corporate greed to retain nurse-patient ratio that allows a minimum standard of care.

 

[bicker]

I disagree on several counts.

There is a whole forum on the DIS devoted to finding ways to pay even less for WDW vacations. Price is a very significant aspect for many many guests, and I'll go out on a limb and say that it is perhaps a stronger motivator for many guests than cleanliness is. Sad, but true.

Absolutely everything at Disney is driven by Disney's obligation to serve the best interest of its owners. To do less than that would be disrespectful and arguably a violation of a fiduciary responsibility.

Unions aren't necessary to facilitate great hospital care. That can be accomplished much more effectively with patient's rights efforts. Alternatively, doctors partnerships can take up the banner and fight for better health care. Also, political parties could do it. The nurses are able to get some great PR value for their efforts, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that that is why nursing unions exist, or that such efforts can only be successful if they're tied to the personal best interest of nurses. Indeed, I suspect that the nursing unions fear the ascendancy of such efforts by others, because it would make their own contributions to great hospital care less significant. The more others accomplish -- those others focusing all their energies towards getting what's best for patients, and not splitting their priorities between what's best for patients and what's best for nurses -- the less the nursing unions would be able to parlay their efforts in that regard towards getting what they want out of the deal, better treatment for their members.

Regardless, there is a world of difference between nurses and custodians. Disney's custodians' union has done NOTHING to fight for anything other than more jobs and better pay for their members. They're not undertaking the kind of social-minded actions that you indicated that the nursing unions undertake. Perhaps if the custodians' unions were less focused on what was good for their members and more focused on what was good for guests, guests should then care more about those unions. As it is, those unions aren't operating in the best interests of the guests, so don't warrant the kind of consideration that perhaps the nursing unions deserve.

 

[MiaSRN62]

bicker says :Unions aren't necessary to facilitate great hospital care. That can be accomplished much more effectively with patient's rights efforts. Alternatively, doctors partnerships can take up the banner and fight for better health care. Also, political parties could do it.

I believe in certain areas they are. Nursing unions that protect the nurses from being mandated to work 16++ hours straight can make a huge difference in nursing care given to patients. Nursing unions that fight to keep injured/sick nurses on workmans comp when they should be, help patient care in the long run. Nothing worse than having an overworked/injured/sick RN giving you critcal care in a hospital.

bicker says : The more others accomplish -- those others focusing all their energies towards getting what's best for patients, and not splitting their priorities between what's best for patients and what's best for nurses -- the less the nursing unions would be able to parlay their efforts in that regard towards getting what they want out of the deal, better treatment for their members.

If I understand what you're saying in this statement.....well often time the nurses (as well as the patients), need someone to fight for them. When nurses are treated well and fairly, it definitely trickles down to the patients, so it's very much connected. Why not better treatment for nurses ? Unless I misunderstand what you're saying (sorry if this is the case).
In my non-union based facility, I see nurses getting their shifts switched all around at the beckon call of administration. Nurses who have worked the day shift for 10 years are being forced to switch to the graveyard shift. It's not right. We had a mass exodus of about 40 nurses last year, in my department alone, based on this issue alone. Left us with a HUGE shortage for close to a year. It takes a minimum of $20K and 8 weeks (sometime longer) to train a new nurse in my department.

Nursing unions fight to keep the nurse/patient ratio to a manageable level. I have worked for 15+ years in a hospital that is non-union and worked for 2 years in a hospital that was. I can assure you, in the non-union hospital, noone (not doctors, political parties etc), even has come close to doing enough to advocate for better nursing by means of more staff/better treatment etc. It's just not been a priority. We have worked short-staffed consistantly for the 15 years I've been at my present facility (equates to not as good nursing care to patients). This has been the #1 complaint of nurses via surveys/meetings in my facility---and 15 years later, not much has changed. I highly doubt I'd see that in a union based organization. I know it was never an issue when I was in a union. So, yes, while I believe unions can go overboard, I also see the benefits of them.

My nursing union experience and comparision to the disney situation, while different I agree, was to show that unions aren't the "all bad" organizations that you made them out to be. The nursing analogy was posted because it's what I can directly relate to and what I've experienced. My husband has been in unions as well (construction/facilities) in the past. They can do a world of good in the morale of workers when "Big Corporation" wants to push their weight around and disregards how they treat their employees. I'm not saying this is or is not exactly the issue in the topic of this thread, but to say that unions exist just to "gang up" on the employer is just too generalized to me. They do a lot in the way of supporting the best interests of the employee. My dh hasn't been in a union for quite some years, but he works with people who are union members (he's a manager) so he works first-hand with unions and their policies. Many policies strictly protect their rights in regards to seniority, illness/injury, time off etc.

bicker says : Disney's custodians' union has done NOTHING to fight for anything other than more jobs and better pay for their members.

And these are very important issues. I suspect the unions also fight for health benefits/retirement issues/sick leave etc. All VERY important things to the worker making $6-$7/hour working for an employer looking to save a dime wherever they can.
So while I used the comparison to nursing unions because it's what I know, I believe there are many areas that can be compared to the situation of the disney employees. I fully realize it's not an exact comparison.

In regards to price/cleanliness, I can say for me personally, I'd rather pay higher prices and get better service. Part of the overall disney vacation experience is the attention to detail. It's always put the WDW destination in the forefront for me. I can vacation in my backyard, down the Jersey shore or wherever and get dirty bathrooms and poor customer service. If the attention to details continues to slip over time (as it is starting to in recent years), it will make Orlando a less favorable vacation destination for our family.

 

[goalie5hole]

I believe in certain areas they are. Nursing unions that protect the nurses from being mandated to work 16++ hours straight can make a huge difference in nursing care given to patients. Nursing unions that fight to keep injured/sick nurses on workmans comp when they should be, help patient care in the long run. Nothing worse than having an overworked/injured/sick RN giving you critcal care in a hospital.



If I understand what you're saying in this statement.....well often time the nurses (as well as the patients), need someone to fight for them. When nurses are treated well and fairly, it definitely trickles down to the patients, so it's very much connected. Why not better treatment for nurses ? Unless I misunderstand what you're saying (sorry if this is the case).
In my non-union based facility, I see nurses getting their shifts switched all around at the beckon call of administration. Nurses who have worked the day shift for 10 years are being forced to switch to the graveyard shift. It's not right. We had a mass exodus of about 40 nurses last year based on this one issue alone. Left us with a HUGE shortage for close to a year. It takes a minimum of $20K and 8 weeks (sometime longer) to train a new nurse in my department.

Nursing unions fight to keep the nurse/patient ratio to a manageable level. I have worked for 15+ years in a hospital that is non-union and worked for 2 years in a hospital that was. I can assure you, in the non-union hospital, noone (not doctors, political parties etc), even has come close to doing enough to advocate for better nursing by means of more staff/better treatment etc. It's just not been a priority. We have worked short-staffed consistantly for the 15 years I've been at my present facility (equates to not as good nursing care to patients). This has been the #1 complaint of nurses via surveys/meetings in my facility---and 15 years later, not much has changed. I highly doubt I'd see that in a union based organization. I know it was never an issue when I was in a union. So, yes, while I believe unions can go overboard, I also see the benefits of them.

My nursing union experience and comparision to the disney situation, while different I agree, was to show that unions aren't the "all bad" organizations that you made them out to be. The nursing analogy was posted because it's what I can directly relate to and what I've experienced. My husband has been in unions as well (construction/facilities) in the past. They can do a world of good in the morale of workers when "Big Corporation" wants to push their weight around and disregards how they treat their employees. I'm not saying this is or is not exactly the issue in the topic of this thread, but to say that unions exist just to "gang up" on the employer is just too generalized to me. They do a lot in the way of supporting the best interests of the employee. My dh hasn't been in a union for quite some years, but he works with people who are union members (he's a manager) so he works first-hand with unions and their policies. Many policies strictly protect their rights in regards to seniority, illness/injury, time off etc.



And these are very important issues. I suspect the unions also fight for health benefits/retirement issues/sick leave etc. All VERY important things to the worker making $6-$7/hour working for an employer looking to save a dime wherever they can.
So while I used the comparison to nursing unions because it's what I know, I believe there are many areas that can be compared to the situation of the disney employees. I fully realize it's not an exact comparison.

In regards to price/cleanliness, I can say for me personally, I'd rather pay higher prices and get better service. Part of the overall disney vacation experience is the attention to detail. It's always put the WDW destination in the forefront for me. I can vacation in my backyard, down the Jersey shore or wherever and get dirty bathrooms and poor customer service. If the attention to details continues to slip over time (as it is starting to in recent years), it will make Orlando a less favorable vacation destination for our family.

Thank you-that's the point I was trying to make about unions,not in so many ways. And I agree when you said you'd rather pay more for better service. That's the old saying "You get what you pay for"

 

[dumbo71]

In regards to price/cleanliness, I can say for me personally, I'd rather pay higher prices and get better service. Part of the overall disney vacation experience is the attention to detail. It's always put the WDW destination in the forefront for me. I can vacation in my backyard, down the Jersey shore or wherever and get dirty bathrooms and poor customer service. If the attention to details continues to slip over time (as it is starting to in recent years), it will make Orlando a less favorable vacation destination for our family.

This is exactly what I'm after with my rants about reduction of services and lack of cleanliness. You are right about the attention to detail slipping. If it continues to slip along with these DDP cuts you will be left with another Six Flags or Universal.

WDW had better be careful, Universal is down now but with the declines I've seen it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see Universal and others turn the tables.

WDW has never been a budget destination. If they try to make it one it will no longer be a WDW I want any part of.

 

[bicker]

I believe in certain areas they are. Nursing unions that protect the nurses from being mandated to work 16++ hours straight can make a huge difference in nursing care given to patients.

Surely laws could require the same. Or the AMA could take action to make that happen. Or patient's rights groups could exert enough pressure. The point is that unions aren't necessary to accomplish that aim, and indeed, the nursing unions are required to split their priorities between what's good for the nurses and what's good for the patients -- indeed they only concerns themselves with what's good for the patients to the extent it is also good for the nurses. For example, the nurses unions have not been pushing to give management more power to change nurses' work-rules to better serve patient's interests. They'd rather retain the power the collective bargaining sledgehammer affords them, rather than subject themselves to external scrutiny in that regard.

well often time the nurses ..., need someone to fight for them.

Absolutely, but let's not hide that behind a curtain of "it's good for the patients" -- they need someone to fight for them.

When nurses are treated well and fairly, it definitely trickles down to the patients

Why should we pay for trickle-down when we can have direct benefits? You see what I'm saying? Why can't we just provide to the nurses just what's good for the patients, and nothing more than that, beyond what market forces would provide? The point is that if the objective is what is best for the patient, then let's do that in the context of a patient rights effort. If the nurses benefit as a consequence, great. However, the focus should be on the patients, first.

My nursing union experience and comparision to the disney situation, while different I agree, was to show that unions aren't the "all bad" organizations that you made them out to be.

Nothing is uniform in life. I'll mention that teachers are another set of folks who have unions which exhibit some measure of social conscience in their advocacy, but still limited by what's good for the teachers. The point is that the unions we're talking about in this thread DON'T exhibit those characteristics, so mentioning nurses or teachers is pretty much irrelevant to the topic.

In regards to price/cleanliness, I can say for me personally, I'd rather pay higher prices and get better service.

Me too. I wish there would be airlines out there, flying to every city like DL, UA, AA, US, etc., charging 35% more for each ticket providing 35% more room in each seat, providing 35% more staff members to smooth the rough spots, providing 35% better luggage service, etc. It sucks that there simply isn't enough of a market for that sort of thing.