Beating a dead horse

[bicker]

WDW had better be careful, Universal is down now but with the declines I've seen it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see Universal and others turn the tables.

I would. Universal took its shot, and came pretty close, but found that there wasn't enough profit to be made at the high-end. Indeed, it is we who had better be careful. If "we the people" continue to focus so heavily on saving money, we could save ourselves right out of all great things in society.

 

[Entropy]

As to unions being the source of all evil, next time you or a family member is hospitalized, if you receive adequate or better nursing care, it will be because a nurses' union has fought corporate greed to retain nurse-patient ratio that allows a minimum standard of care.

News Flash!
Your Nurses union doesn't care the slightest about patient care. They only want high nurse/patient ratios so that the hospital is required to hire more nurses, union nurses that will pay them more money.
The Nurses' unions aren't benevolent organizations for the good of all mankind. They are businesses and their sole focus is to bring in more money for themselves. This goes for all unions such as teachers unions. Smaller class size? They don't care about education, thay want more teachers hired.
Don't believe me? The next time that your union negotiates your contract, try asking for non-monetary compensation like more unpaid days off or free uniforms. Your union won't lift a finger to get it for you.

 

[jimmytammy]

Uh Guys, this thread seems to be drifting a bit off subject

Didnt mean to start a ruckus. Lets all and get back to being friends.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Bicker says :Surely laws could require the same. Or the AMA could take action to make that happen. Or patient's rights groups could exert enough pressure. The point is that unions aren't necessary to accomplish that aim,

Respectfully, I've been waiting for 18+ years for changes.....I'll most likely retire (another 20+ years for that) with little or no change and the nursing shortage still in effect. So your above statement certainly sounds logical and rational bicker, but I have waited almost 2 decades and not seen it happen. And the AMA does lobby for nurses' rights. Just don't see much positive come out of it----though there has been a little progress. It's just too little being done and not quick enough.

Whatever the the objective of the unions, in the case of nursing (or teaching etc), the fact that they can and DO get more nurses hired and thus a better nurse/patient ratio, equates to better for the nurses AND better for the patients. So far, in my 18 year career as a hospital based RN, they are the only ones that have brought about positive change and better working conditions for nurses. Most hospitals just want someone with a pulse taking care of patients (literally). When I worked the graveyard shift for 10 years, I never got a meal/rest break (I suspect because they are the worst staffed shift). I would work 12-13 hours straight without so much as a glass of water. When I worked for the union hospital, this never happened. We were required to clock out for a full 30 min (plus two 15 min breaks if we worked 12 hour shifts).

The less hospitals have to pay nurses, means the more profit they take home. And the hospital I work for is supposed to be a non-profit organization.....lol Let's just say, higher administration get new leased cars as bonues every year (usually a Lexus) and there are many other "benefits" for higher management (particularily if they do a good job trimming the budget---and nurses are usually a part of that among other things).

I suspect disney operates in the same way.
I just see disney employees needing a union to fight for their rights, because we all know disney is about turning a profit anywhere/anyway they can.

Entropy says :Your Nurses union doesn't care the slightest about patient care.

I agree ...directly, you're right. But, if the nurse is given what is fair, and not overworked/understaffed etc, this will equate to better nursing care. I lived it. The first hospital I worked for, fought for nurse/patient ratio (maybe it was so they could rake in another dollar but the patients were cared for better as well in turn).
I think the same would go for disney employees. Treat them fairly and compensate them properly etc, and morale will go up----thus equates to better job performance.

 

[bicker]

I suspect disney operates in the same way.

We've already established that unions for nurses and teachers, perhaps, do some things that are good for patients and students, whether that be accidently or on purpose. This is not a discussion about hospitals or schools, so none of that matters. As I mentioned before, I think those might be the only cases where the unions do anything that might help the patrons of the services provided -- in most other cases, I suspect the companies do focus to some extent on what is good for their patrons and the unions don't focus on what is good for the patrons at all.

The custodians unions don't work for the best interests of guests.

The company does (whether that be accidently or on purpose).

 

[MiaSRN62]

bicker states :The custodians unions don't work for the best interests of guests.

I understand this and acknowleged it. I spoke about the trickle down effect because it does exist.
My husband is a manager at the Univ of Penn. He works directly with custodial unions as well as trade unions. So I get a first hand account of how these unions operate---I am familiar with them. I don't think any union (nurse/teacher/custodian) works for the direct benefit of the guest/patient/student etc as we discussed already. I agree that's been established. What I pointed out in my post was that if the union worker is happy, that normally trickles down to the customer. If you have a bunch of unhappy disney workers that are being treated unfairly/overworked/understaffed etc, you'll undoubtedly have a poor work effort from that group. OTOH, unions back and support the custodians, thus making for a more satisfied/content work force. I would say morale would be higher and thus the guest would benefit from this down the line.
I think we're just going in circles with this topic though.

 

[jimmytammy]

Nevermind

 

[bicker]

All the folks I've met from BAGS have seemed to be courteous, happy employees. I would assume that would carry-over to CARS as well. Morale there seems great.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Nevermind

Sorry Jimmytammy......guess this was directed towards me ? I thought my post was cordial and respectful. I spoke in direct relation to the disney workers.
I'll bow out of this thread now......

 

[greenban]

Sorry Jimmytammy......guess this was directed towards me ? I thought my post was cordial and respectful. I spoke in direct relation to the disney workers.
I'll bow out of this thread now......

FWIW (especially as I often have to remove my politically incorrect foot from my mouth on a daily basis.......)

I think you and bicker have been very respectful of very different opinions, with both of you able to recognize some truth in parts of each others POVs.

A refreshing, respectful and open discussion that I have lurked upon.

Please don't bow out!

-Tony

 

[dumbo71]

I would. Universal took its shot, and came pretty close, but found that there wasn't enough profit to be made at the high-end. Indeed, it is we who had better be careful. If "we the people" continue to focus so heavily on saving money, we could save ourselves right out of all great things in society.

Good post Bicker and truth is I can't disagree.

You bring up an interesting point: maybe "we" the guests are demanding these cuts in a way.

I sure hope things swing back the other way.

 

[bicker]

I hope so, too. However, I just don't see it swinging back yet. People are hot for these budget websites and saving money far more than they worry about "What's the return policy?" or "How many customer service agents do you have per customer and how many hours of training do you give them each year?" They jump from supplier to supplier just because they can get something for a few dollars less -- so much so there is little reason to try to cultivate business any way other than by cutting costs and cutting prices.

 

[Starr W.]

I hope so, too. However, I just don't see it swinging back yet. People are hot for these budget websites and saving money far more than they worry about "What's the return policy?" or "How many customer service agents do you have per customer and how many hours of training do you give them each year?" They jump from supplier to supplier just because they can get something for a few dollars less -- so much so there is little reason to try to cultivate business any way other than by cutting costs and cutting prices.

I don't think you'll see it swing back yet either. People don't look at the "total cost", in business or personal life. I have seen it in my former business as a customer and a supplier. I have seen it at WDW, a disgruntled renter, who didn't know that you don't get clean towels or trash emptyed every day at a DVC resort. Had they done their homework they could have made an informed decsion to rent points or stay at a Value hotel or off site. As DH just pointed out people want the price of a McDonald's hamburger for the quality of a NY strip.

 

[sssteele]

I am a public school teacher of 33 years in PA. I am well-compensated and enjoy good benefits, both of which I feel I deserve (but that would be another rant). Specifically, your generalization about class size restrictions being nothing more than a deceitful attempt to increase demand for instructors is nothing more than a biased attack on my profession. I cannot speak for all my colleagues, nationwide or in my school, but reduced class size (I average 30), in my opinion, is critical to better learning. In PA, class size is non-negotiable, a administrative perogative unless the school board wishes to allow it on the "table". Lip service is paid by the schools to the "ideal" of 20-25 students per class, but the truth is that it's not happening. When due process makes it nearly impossible to expel disruptive students, a large class is a challenge at best. I would forego some portion of my raise to reduce my average class size, not for stress reduction, but for enhancing learning. You may accuse me of posturing, pontificating, and anything else you like, but my self interest has always, in my opinion, been balanced by my concern for my students who mean the world to me. BTW, in my 33 years of teaching, I have used 30 of 333 accumulated (without limit) days of sick leave. I will recieve $50 per day for the first 100, and "flush" the rest at retirement. I point this out not to brag, but to demonstrate some credibility in my impassioned response. Peace!

 

[jimmytammy]

Sorry Jimmytammy......guess this was directed towards me ? I thought my post was cordial and respectful. I spoke in direct relation to the disney workers.
I'll bow out of this thread now......

Please dont. All posts have been very interesting. It seems that it has taken a life of its own. Didnt intend for it to become controversial, but all have a right to their thoughts and opinions. The nevermind wasnt intended towards anybody in specific. Please dont let what I write here offend you or anyone. That would be my last intent, I assure you. I love the DIS and especially the DVC forums.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Jimmytammy,
No harm done. Sometimes threads do take off on a roller coaster ride of twists and turns. I'm very interested in hearing everyone's views and I try to respect the opinions of even those I am at odds with.

I think bicker feels the same as I---that we are cool with the conflicting viewpoints back and forth. At least I am.

Thanks for the post Tony

And sssteele....I agree with your post and the issue of class size. I feel nurses are on the same wave length. Just as teachers want better for their students, we want better nurse/patient ratios (among other issues) for the benefit of the patients we care for. If unions help facilitate that cause, then so be it. Because it sure does take a mountain to get hospitals/administration/physician groups/political groups to do anything to improve the situation.

 

[Entropy]

I am a public school teacher of 33 years in PA. I am well-compensated and enjoy good benefits, both of which I feel I deserve (but that would be another rant). Specifically, your generalization about class size restrictions being nothing more than a deceitful attempt to increase demand for instructors is nothing more than a biased attack on my profession. I cannot speak for all my colleagues, nationwide or in my school, but reduced class size (I average 30), in my opinion, is critical to better learning. In PA, class size is non-negotiable, a administrative perogative unless the school board wishes to allow it on the "table". Lip service is paid by the schools to the "ideal" of 20-25 students per class, but the truth is that it's not happening. When due process makes it nearly impossible to expel disruptive students, a large class is a challenge at best. I would forego some portion of my raise to reduce my average class size, not for stress reduction, but for enhancing learning. You may accuse me of posturing, pontificating, and anything else you like, but my self interest has always, in my opinion, been balanced by my concern for my students who mean the world to me. BTW, in my 33 years of teaching, I have used 30 of 333 accumulated (without limit) days of sick leave. I will recieve $50 per day for the first 100, and "flush" the rest at retirement. I point this out not to brag, but to demonstrate some credibility in my impassioned response. Peace!

Your resentment is misplaced.
I never mentioned teachers, I mentioned unions. Your union may be for smaller class size but check their motivation, they jump on it because there's money in it for them.
Does anyone think that the unions at Disney really care for the quality of the entertainment product? Nope, they just want to organize as many people as possible. Unions that I've seem seem to be blind to the fact that they are dependent on the success of their members' employers. They want what they want and don't care what it costs the employer in revenue or quality of product. It like when Eastern Airlines went out of business, the Union celebrated their "victory" despite the fact that their strike destroyed or displaced thousands of jobs.
The Disney unions seem to work the same way and the solution for Disney is to outsource so that they have more control of the product.

 

[Mickmse2002]

I still question the assumption that Disney employees cleaning a urinal will somehow make it a cleaner urinal? Setting aside the question of the usefulness and purpose (real or imagined) of labor unions for a minute, I think the previous post (a few pages back) from the newly hired CM got lost in the debate. Their point was that many of the long-term cast members have lost the "magic" that many have argued that only direct employees of WDW would have in their work. How does the fly with the "outsourcing is evil and will result in poorer service crowd?" People keep using dirty restrooms in the parks as the example but if my memory serves me correctly the only custodial jobs that have been outsourced were night cleaning staff in resorts.

 

[dumbo71]

I am a public school teacher of 33 years in PA. I am well-compensated and enjoy good benefits, both of which I feel I deserve (but that would be another rant).

I know plenty of teachers and I wouldn't say any of them are "well compensated". Well compensated with a four year degree plus an additional 2 years for a masters at a starting salary of $30,000+??????
Three of my friends are teachers, well at least they have degreees but never have worked as teachers. They couldn't make any money. It might be fine for a women but come on a man teaching?????? Yeah, women would be flocking to that guy I'm sure. I have roughly 10 other friends who teach and they don't think they are even remotely well compensated.

Teaching is an honorable profession but sadly not one I'd ever recommend for my son. Second income wife, sure. Primary bread winner NO.

Also, despite your denials Entropy is 100% correct. Your union could care less about you or education. They only care about making themselves more money. You may feel differently but you are just kidding yourself if you really believe it is any different.

 

[jimmytammy]

I still question the assumption that Disney employees cleaning a urinal will somehow make it a cleaner urinal? Setting aside the question of the usefulness and purpose (real or imagined) of labor unions for a minute, I think the previous post (a few pages back) from the newly hired CM got lost in the debate. Their point was that many of the long-term cast members have lost the "magic" that many have argued that only direct employees of WDW would have in their work. How does the fly with the "outsourcing is evil and will result in poorer service crowd?" People keep using dirty restrooms in the parks as the example but if my memory serves me correctly the only custodial jobs that have been outsourced were night cleaning staff in resorts.

I think I was the one who mentioned the urinals, so I will take a shot at it. What I noticed was not so much the urinals, but the floor below the urinals. I know kids miss, and some adults too (why I dont have a clue) but they do. The point I was trying to make is that this has become common, but it wasnt common just a few years ago. And, the floors didnt remain this way for long. Used to see a janitor in about every restroom or near one taking care of things. Not anymore. At least I dont see it.

I think we all agree the parks arent as clean as they used to be. Used to, a piece of paper on the ground, a CM would pick it up and take care of it. Heck, I remember hearing about this before I ever made the 1st trip there. Now, trash is common on the ground. Not as big a deal as it used to be.

I, as a DVC owner, and a shareholder feel I have a right to be concerned over the decline of service at WDW. It was gradual at first, but now it seems outright blatant! What will be the accepted in 5-10 years from now? I for one am going to complain about the decline I see. And believe me, as a business owner, the last thing I want are complaints. I am VERY passive when it comes to complaints from myself. But these things are getting out of hand.

As for outsourcing, its business. Not much I can do. I can complain. But bottom line, I still expect the same service and quality I got when I bought into 40plus years of vacations in 01.

I do agree that CMs that have been there for years, yes they can become complacent. It is human nature, we all do.

Sorry for the rambling