Be Thankful for President Bush

[Charade]

I don't care what the teacher's opinion is, I saw the footage and I can make up my own mind.

Well, that's your opinion. I have a different one. Neither one of us is right because we don't know what was going on in his mind at that time. So speculate all you want. That's just what it is.

If a Democrat had pulled something like that, Fox News would still be showing it on a daily basis. We all know this to be true.

I always love these "what if" arguments.

let's just admit he did a poor job and move on. The only possible way to say otherwise is to have incredibly low expectations for our President (as our liberal Canadian friend seems to do). Outside of shameless partisanship, there is no basis on which to defend Bush for his performance that day.

Let's not.

 

[marybet]

Exactly. So own it JoeEpcot. What do you really think?

And by that I mean, what would you be saying if it was Clinton or Gore who had sat there dumfounded waiting for instructions while the country was under attack. Do you honestly believe you would be defending him? I supported Bush in 2000 and was initially quite happy with the way he reacted to 9/11. But his performance on that day was at the very least embarassing. I don't care what the teacher's opinion is, I saw the footage and I can make up my own mind.

If a Democrat had pulled something like that, Fox News would still be showing it on a daily basis. We all know this to be true, let just admit he did a poor job and move on. The only possible way to say otherwise is to have incredibly low expectations for our President (as our liberal Canadian friend seems to do). Outside of shameless partisanship, there is no basis on which to defend Bush for his performance that day.

Well said. And it wasn't a "few minutes", it was 7 minutes. This was done on the TV show Commander in Chief, the President is reading to a group of children at a hurricane shelter and her aide tells her there is a problem and she immediately hands the book to one of the children and ask them to finish and the she goes and takes care of the situation. I know.......... it's a TV show, but still it is what Bush should have done. To just sit there for 7 long minutes.

It just sets me off when people imply that Bush was the only one who could have gotten us through 9/11. He uses 9/11 whenever he needs to make people forget how ineffective he is. I for one am sick of hearing how everything has changed since 9/11. I really hate it when they accuse Democrats of having a pre 9/11 mentality, what BS that is. The real problem is that nothing has changed, if we need any evidence that we are still not ready for another attack just look at the response to Hurricane Katrina. We have a long way to go and I don't think that Bush is even on the right path, he still doesn't have a clue.

 

[Mugg Mann]

Our forests have not been decreasing for decades.

Got a verifiable cite for that?

Crickets Chirping...........Dead Silence..............No response

The sun will rise, the sun will set, and Joe can't back up his claims with verifiable facts.

I guess there are certain things one can always count on.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

...just got back from Philly last night and wondering when we were going to get another one of Mossman's super positive "pro-Bush" rants!! Well done again, man...your stuff gets better every time!

 

[LakeAriel]

How do you know he was dumbfounded just because he waited a few minutes? If a Dem president had waited a few minutes, both sides of this issue might be making different comments.

The teacher present felt he handled the situation well.

Trust me, if she was standing watching the Twin towers burn and collapse she would not have the nerve to say it was handled well!

 

[MossMan]

Our forests have not been decreasing for decades.

The sun will rise, the sun will set, and Joe can't back up his claims with verifiable facts.

I don’t know if Joe can back it up or not, but he is correct. If you would like to read about this remarkable but not often reported development, try here.

It really is an astonishing story, but kind of logical if you think about it. Over the last 50 years we have seen incredible gains in agricultural productivity. So even though we have more people, less land is required to feed us all. Since the primary reason for the destruction of forests is agriculture, this increased productivity has resulted in more forested land.

Another thing which escapes broad attention is how much cleaner our air and water has become over the last 30 years. Since 1976, urban ozone has dropped 31 percent, nitrogen oxide has dropped 38 percent, fine soot has dropped 26 percent and lead has dropped 97 percent. And this has happened despite a 25 percent increase in population and a doubling of GDP.

In 1970, only one-third of our rivers and lakes were safe for swimming and fishing, now that has risen to two-thirds. Pretty amazing if you think about it.

I believe there is a particular reason why these things are not reported on. This news is distinctly non-ideological.

Many on the left don’t like this news because they have a stake in portraying the environment in the worst possible light possible. If people felt the environment was actually improving, it becomes difficult to get people mobilized for environmental causes.

However, many on the right don’t like this news either. Much of the progress in this regard is directly attributable to government regulation. And the last thing many on the right want is to give credit to government regulation for fixing problems. (Particularly when we are debating whether to enact regulation to decrease greenhouse emissions.)

Facts are awkward like that. They often refuse to line up with our established political beliefs.

 

[Mugg Mann]

I don’t know if Joe can back it up or not, but he is correct. If you would like to read about this remarkable but not often reported development, try here.

It really is an astonishing story, but kind of logical if you think about it. Over the last 50 years we have seen incredible gains in agricultural productivity. So even though we have more people, less land is required to feed us all. Since the primary reason for the destruction of forests is agriculture, this increased productivity has resulted in more forested land.

Another thing which escapes broad attention is how much cleaner our air and water has become over the last 30 years. Since 1976, urban ozone has dropped 31 percent, nitrogen oxide has dropped 38 percent, fine soot has dropped 26 percent and lead has dropped 97 percent. And this has happened despite a 25 percent increase in population and a doubling of GDP.

In 1970, only one-third of our rivers and lakes were safe for swimming and fishing, now that has risen to two-thirds. Pretty amazing if you think about it.

I believe there is a particular reason why these things are not reported on. This news is distinctly non-ideological.

Many on the left don’t like this news because they have a stake in portraying the environment in the worst possible light possible. If people felt the environment was actually improving, it becomes difficult to get people mobilized for environmental causes.

However, many on the right don’t like this news either. Much of the progress in this regard is directly attributable to government regulation. And the last thing many on the right want is to give credit to government regulation for fixing problems. (Particularly when we are debating whether to enact regulation to decrease greenhouse emissions.)

Facts are awkward like that. They often refuse to line up with our established political beliefs.

It's a fascinating article. I see the article is a tad out of date, but 1999 is close enough. When I'm wrong, I'll certainly be the first to admit it, so my sincere apologies to Joe on this point, and thanks MossMan for bringing this one to light!

 

[Chicago526]

I don’t know if Joe can back it up or not, but he is correct. If you would like to read about this remarkable but not often reported development, try here.

It really is an astonishing story, but kind of logical if you think about it. Over the last 50 years we have seen incredible gains in agricultural productivity. So even though we have more people, less land is required to feed us all. Since the primary reason for the destruction of forests is agriculture, this increased productivity has resulted in more forested land.

Another thing which escapes broad attention is how much cleaner our air and water has become over the last 30 years. Since 1976, urban ozone has dropped 31 percent, nitrogen oxide has dropped 38 percent, fine soot has dropped 26 percent and lead has dropped 97 percent. And this has happened despite a 25 percent increase in population and a doubling of GDP.

In 1970, only one-third of our rivers and lakes were safe for swimming and fishing, now that has risen to two-thirds. Pretty amazing if you think about it.

I believe there is a particular reason why these things are not reported on. This news is distinctly non-ideological.

Many on the left don’t like this news because they have a stake in portraying the environment in the worst possible light possible. If people felt the environment was actually improving, it becomes difficult to get people mobilized for environmental causes.

However, many on the right don’t like this news either. Much of the progress in this regard is directly attributable to government regulation. And the last thing many on the right want is to give credit to government regulation for fixing problems. (Particularly when we are debating whether to enact regulation to decrease greenhouse emissions.)

Facts are awkward like that. They often refuse to line up with our established political beliefs.

Interesting. At the least it means we should keep current regulations right where they are. If we should tighten them further is a legitamate debate, but by no means should they be relaxed.

Anyway, I thought Bush was a yutz in the 2000 campaign. Haven't seen anything to change my mind, except give me an even worse opinion of him.

Bush's behavior at the school when he first was told was embarassing at best and down right dangerous at the worst. Even if he didn't have a clue what to do, he should have excused himself from the class and started to ask his advisors for the most recent information and at least get a handle on what was going on, even if he didn't know what to do about it yet.

I personaly feel Gore would have done just fine. We'll never know of course but I wouldn't have had any doubts about how he would have handled it.

I do agree with Apothecary on one point though, he shouldn't be critizied for flying around on AF1 all day, at the time the White House was still under threat, the safest place for the President is on AF1, better a moving target protected by fighter jets than a sitting duck. Now, if he'd ordered AF1 to land in Crawford, that'd be differant!

 

[charlie,nj]

Bush's behavior at the school when he first was told was embarassing at best and down right dangerous at the worst. Even if he didn't have a clue what to do, he should have excused himself from the class and started to ask his advisors for the most recent information and at least get a handle on what was going on, even if he didn't know what to do about it yet. QUOTE]

Same old same old…over and over again…..you people have been watching too many bad movies…err I mean one bad MM movie.

Here is the 9/11 time line from Life magazine…that I post over and over.

I won’t speak for the DISer’s in the NYC area..or the DISer’s who were actually IN the WTC on 9/11..that made their way out safely (thank God) But this is how most people I know felt about the first plane crashing into the WTC..I thought it was an accident like when the plane hit the Empire State Building years ago. Everyone went about their business and prayed that not many people were hurt. The NYC news radio stations were reporting that a SMALL commuter plane hit the WTC.

I was about a half mile away looking at the WTC smoking when I saw the second plane coming and hit…again stupid me thought it was still another accident…..something wrong with the local airports radar systems or something. That was also mentioned on the NYC news radio stations as a cause for the two plane crashing.

As I was driving down the NJ Turnpike the radio reports starting saying that the planes were bigger and we were most likely being attacked.

I guess we have a lot of Miss Cleo’s or better yet a lot of MM’s here on the CB that knew right away that America was under attack when the first plane hit at…8:47am September 11th, 2001. I didn’t…NO one did…..

************************************************************************

This is the entire 9/11 timeline.. it is from the 9/11 Commemorative LIFE magazine. “IN THE LAND OF THE FREE September 11 –And After” (Volume 1, No.8 November 12, 2001)

5:45 am: Mohamed Atta and Adbulaziz Alomari pass through a security check in Portland, Me preparing to board a flight that will take them to Boston.

6:00 am: President Bush awakes at the Colony, a tennis resort in Longboat Key, Fla.

6:00 am: Primary Day election polls for mayor and other positions open in New York. Mayor Giuliani cannot run again, owing to term limits.

8:00 am: American Airlines Flight 11 leaves Logan Airport in Boston bound for Los Angeles with 81 passengers and 11 crewmembers.

8:14 am: United Flight 175 to Los Angeles departs Boston with 56 passengers and 9 crewmembers.

8:21 am: American Flight 77 to L.A .departs Washington Dulles International Airport with 58 passengers’ and 6 crew on board.

8:35 am: The Federal Aviation Admin. alerts NORAD that American Flight 11 has been hijacked after taking off from Boston.

8:42 am: United Flight 93 to San Francisco takes off from Newark Airport in NJ with 38 passengers and 7 crew on board.

8:43 am: The FAA notifies NORAD that United 175 from Boston to L.A. has also been hijacked.

8:44 am: NORAD scrambles two F-15 fighters from Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Mass.

8:47 am: AA Flight 11, bearing 200,000 gallons of jet fuel, crashes into tower No.1 of the WTC in NYC, killing the 92 people aboard and ravaging floors 90 through 100.

8:59 am: A television studio lot at Chelsea Piers on the West Side is transformed into an emergency trauma unit.

9:00 am: Two Hundred firefighters, part of an intense rush from all across the city, are at the WTC many of them clambering up stairwells to rescue people.

9:00 am: Bush arrives at a Sarasota, Fla, school to promote his education program. White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card tells him that a plane has crashed into the WTC.

9:02 am: Cameras trained on the burning north tower capture live the horrifying view of another jet United Flight 175 with it’s 65 passengers and crew, blasting into the floors 78 to 87 of the Trade Center’s south tower in a tumultuous explosion.

9:05 am: The President is sitting in with a second-grade class when Card whispers to him that yet another airplane has stuck the Twin Towers.

9:09 am: Mayor Giuliani is racing downtown having received word moments after the first attack. He checks in at a fire command post in the WTC that would later be crushed.

9:12 am: Bush leaves the school and is in touch with NYC officials as well as VP Dick Cheney at the WH.

9:20 am: The FBI announces that reports of planes being hijacked are under investigation.

9:21 am: The Port Authority of NY and NJ orders that all bridges and tunnels in the metropolitan area be closed.

9:24 am: The FAA notifies NORAD that a 3rd jet American Flight 77, Bound from Washington to L.A., has been hijacked. NORAD launches two F-15 fighters from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to intercept the airliner.

9:25 am: The NY Stock Exchange delays all trading.

9:26 am: For the first time in history the FAA orders all nonmilitary planes grounded and cancels all flights in the U.S.

9:27 am: NYC airports are shut down.

9:29 am: First reports of casualties indicate that at least 6 (SIX) people are dead and 1000 injured.

9:30 am: Rescue workers and fire marshals are massed at the WTC as the upper floors are ablaze. On a typical day, 50,000 people work in the Trade Center and as many as 100,000 visitors.

9:30 am: with students and teachers looking on, Bush, having been briefed by National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, delivers his first official remarks on the catastrophe: ‘We have had a national tragedy. Two airplanes have crashed into the WTC in an apparent terrorist attack on our country.” He orders “a full-scale investigation to hunt down and to find those folks who committed these acts” and says he will immediately return to Washington.

9:30 am: The NY Stock Exchange is evacuated, and trading is suspended.

9:32 am: All financial markets in the United Sates are closed.

9:41 am: American Flight 77, en route from Dulles Airport in DC to L.A. with 64 people aboard, crashes into the Pentagon in Arlington Va. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is in the building but escapes harm. Evacuation commences. The plane was traveling so low that it clipped lampposts on roads around the Pentagon, and eyewitnesses report that it powered up just before impact. The fighter planes from Langley were still 12 minutes or 105 miles away when the Pentagon was hit.

9:43 am: Abu Dhabi TV reports a call from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine claming responsibility for directing two planes into the WTC, However, officials of that group later deny making the claim.

9:45 am: The White House is evacuated.

9:48 am: US Capitol is evacuated…other federal DC buildings are closed.

9:50 am: The 110-story south tower of the WTC suddenly, and simply collapses, a victim of the steel-melting heat of the inferno. Witnesses report hearing a sucking sound and then an incredible surge of air as the floors pancake downward. A vast cloud of smoke, dirt, and debris forms and slowly spreads from the building. Countless pieces of office paper drift into Brooklyn and out over the Hudson River.

9:55 am: Bush hastily departs on an evasive route for Barksdale Air Force Base, outside Shreveport, La.

9:58 am: An emergency dispatcher in PA receives a call from a passenger on United Flight 93 out of Newark who says, “We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!”

10:00 am: Aboard Air Force One en route to La, Bush calls VP Cheney and puts America’s military on high-alert status. The President shifts through updates from his staff, including an erroneous that a car bomb had denoted at the State Dept.

10:00 am: United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to SF with 45 people aboard, crashes in Shanksville, Pa. 80 miles south of Pittsburg, having turned back from its westward heading.

10:08 am: Across from the WH in Lafayette Park, Secret Service agents are deployed with automatic rifles.

10:10 am: a portion of the Pentagon caves in.

10:13 am: In NYC the United Nations building is evacuated.

10:22 am: In DC the State and Justice Depts. are evacuated, along with the World Bank.

10:24 am: The FAA reports that all transatlantic aircraft flying into the U.S are being diverted to Canada.

10:28 am: the north tower of the WTC collapses into itself in a fury of smoke and mayhem, sending vast amounts of debris into the surrounding streets. Hundreds of firefighters are trapped and killed. The huge communications antenna at the summit plummets like a rocket gone wrong..

10:29 am: In apocalyptic scenes, throngs of desperate people flee the chaotic area.

10:30 am: NY Governor declares state of emergency.

10:41 am: The president is aboard Air Force One, which is headed toward Jacksonville to join up with jets providing air cover. On the phone from a protected area of the WH, VP Cheney presses Bush not to return quickly to DC.

10:46 am: US Secretary of State Powell cuts short his trip to Latin America to return to the USA.

10:50 am: Nerves are taut around the Pentagon as rumors spread that a second attack is coming.

10:53 am: NY’s primary elections are postponed.

10:54 am: Israel evacuates all diplomatic missions.

11:00 am: NYC Mayor Giuliani tells people to stay home and orders lower Manhattan evacuated.

11:16 am: The CDC states that emergency response teams are being assembled.

11:45 am: With US military on nuclear alert, the president arrives at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. Reporters are asked to keep their cell phones off, to conceal his location. From a conference room Bush calls, among others, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and NY Senator Charles Schumer.

12:04 pm: LA international airport, the destination of three crashed airplanes, is evacuated.

12:15 pm: The US announces that its borders with Mexico and Canada have been closed.

12:15 pm: San Francisco international Airport the destination of Flight 93 is evacuated and shut down.

12:36 pm: In a taped statement from Barksdale Air Force Base President Bush says that the US armed forces are on worldwide “high-alert status” and that all appropriate security precautions have been taken. “Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts”.

12:55 pm: Taliban officials, speaking from Afghanistan, deny any responsibility for the attacks. “What happened in the US was not a job of ordinary people. It could have been the work of governments, “says Taliban spokesperson Abdul Hai Mutmaen.

1:15 pm: Bush departs for Air Force One in a camouflaged Humvee. While en route to Offutt Air Force Base near Omaha, he talks to Cheney again and schedules a 4 pm meeting of his national security staff. He also talks to Giuliani and Pataki “I know your heart is broken and your city is strained, and anything we can do, let me know” Bush says.

1:27 pm: a state of emergency is declared in Washington, DC.

1:44 pm: The Pentagon says five warships and two aircraft carriers will leave the US Naval Station in Norfolk Va. To protect the East Coast from further attack and to reduce the number of ships in port. The two carriers, the USS George Washington and the USS John F. Kennedy are headed for New York. The other ships are frigates and guided missile destroyers capable of shooting down aircraft.

2:30 pm: The FAA announces there will be no commercial air traffic permitted until noon EDT Wednesday at the earliest.

2:49 pm: At a news conference Giuliani says that subway and bus service are partially restored in NYC. Asked about the number of people killed, Giuliani says, “I don’t think we want to speculate about that-more than any of us can bear.”

2:50 pm: Bush arrives at Offutt Air Force base in Nebraska, where he descends into a cinderblock bunker. There he teleconferences with the eight-member National Security Council. Cheney who had suggested Bush go to Offutt and National Security Adviser Rice are connected from a secure facility at the WH. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has remained at the Pentagon.

4:00 pm: US officials say there are “good indications” based on “new and specific” information that Saudi militant Osama bin Laden, suspected of coordination the bombings of two US embassies in Africa in 1998 and the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, is involved in the latest attacks.

4:10 pm: Building 7 of the WTC complex is reportedly on fire.

4:25 pm: The American Stock Exchange, NASDAQ and NY Stock Exchange say they will remain closed on Wednesday.

4:36 pm: Bush leaves Nebraska aboard Air Force One to return to Washington. While in the air he renews his telephone link with Rice and Cheney. The Chief Executive also makes time to call First Lady Laura Bush and says, “I’m coming home. See you at the WH” He then works with aides on his speech to be delivered that evening.

5:20 pm: US officials say the plane that crashed in Pa could have been headed for one of 3 possible targets: Camp David, The WH or the US Capitol.

6:00 pm: Explosions are heard in Kabul, Afghanistan, are credited to the Northern Alliance, a group fighting the Taliban in the country’s ongoing civil war. The U.S denies involvement.

6:10 pm: Giuliani urges New Yorkers to stay home Wednesday if at all possible.

6:40 pm: Rumsfeld holds a news conference in the Pentagon and says the building is operational. “It will be in business tomorrow.”

6:54 pm: Bush arrives at the WH aboard the helicopter Marine One and is scheduled to address the nation at 8:30 pm. The President had landed at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland with a fighter jet escort. Laura Bush greets him, having arrived earlier by motorcade from a “secure location.”

7:45 pm: The NY Police Dept says that at least 78 officers are missing. The city also states that as many as half of the first 400 firefighters on the scene were killed..

8:30 pm: President Bush speaks to the nation on television, saying “thousands of lives were suddenly ended by evil,” and asks for prayers for the families and friends of Tuesday’s victims. “These acts shattered steel, but they cannot dent the steel of American resolve.” The President says the United States will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed the acts and those who harbor the.

8:35 pm: Bush attends a security meeting.

9:57 pm: Giuliani closes NYC schools for Wednesday and says no more volunteers are needed for evening’s rescue efforts. He says there is hope that people are still alive. He also says that power is out on the West Side of Manhattan and adds that health department tests show no airborne chemical agents.

10:21 pm: Bush calls an end to the security meeting. Secret Service radios carry the news that the President has gone home to bed: “Trailblazer. Second floor of the residence.”


.

 

[MossMan]

9:05 am: The President is sitting in with a second-grade class when Card whispers to him that yet another airplane has stuck the Twin Towers.

9:09 am: Mayor Giuliani is racing downtown having received word moments after the first attack. He checks in at a fire command post in the WTC that would later be crushed.

9:12 am: Bush leaves the school and is in touch with NYC officials as well as VP Dick Cheney at the WH.

Interesting, but I think you are missing one very important item in the timeline. See below for a corrected copy:

9:05 am: The President is sitting in with a second-grade class when Card whispers to him that yet another airplane has stuck the Twin Towers.

9:05 am – 9:12 am: Confused and not knowing what to do, President Bush stares uncomfortably into the faces of the students while he waits for someone (anyone) to tell him what to do.

9:09 am: Mayor Giuliani is racing downtown having received word moments after the first attack. He checks in at a fire command post in the WTC that would later be crushed.

9:12 am: Bush leaves the school and is in touch with NYC officials as well as VP Dick Cheney at the WH.​

 

[charlie,nj]

Ok Moss Man you got me...but hey why can't I do a little editing like Mikey Moore..you know leave out the important stuff..


I read your post about McCain...I always liked him. I also liked Rudy even before 9/11. They both seem to get things done..no BS kind of guys.

.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

The sun will rise, the sun will set, and Joe can't back up his claims with verifiable facts.

I guess there are certain things one can always count on.

http://websearcht.cs.com/cs/boomfra...appi.org/paperu/news/archive/sep_oct_2001.htm

From the article:
North American Forests are Growing!

North American forests are abundant and growing, according to a recent United Nations' State of the World's Forests report. The UN report says that forest coverage expanded nearly 10 million acres over the last decade.

According to Dr. Patrick Moore, ecologist and co-founder of Greenpeace, "There is a common misconception that our forests are shrinking and we are running out of trees, when actually the opposite is true. The volume of North America's forests has grown and continues to grow."

North American forestry practices have been so successful that the United States and Canada now serve as role models for other countries. Consider these forest facts:

Canada and the United States together maintain the largest area of protected forests in the world, greater than Sweden, Finland, Russia, Brazil, Germany and the UK combined.
Today, the US has about the same amount of land covered by trees as it did 100 years ago.
Every year, some two billion seedlings are planted in Canada and the United States - more than six new trees a year for every person in both countries.


Sorry I'm late with this. (I see someone else has answered).

There was another study that I like even better that I usually site which gives more data on a decade to decade basis, but I'm having trouble finding it.

Edit to add: I accept your gracious apology on this specific issue, Mugg Man. I missed it when scrolling thru yesterday.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Congratulations on being totally hypocritical, Joe, but we've come to expect nothing less of you. You don't want to answer the question in the first post, so you dismiss it by saying that only sarcasm is allowed in this thread, and then you violate you own words with a non-sarcastic explanation to the second paragraph in the next post.

That poster was not the OP. Did you think I was serious? -- where's your sense of humor, oh sarcastic one.

Independent, here's Joe's exact quote from the thread you cited where he was asked whether the Constitution of the United States or the bible takes precedence in this country:

Originally Posted by JoeEpcotRocks
The Constitution, unless there is something specific that is contrary to the Word of God, then as a Christian, the Bible would have to take precedence.

Folks, never forget for a second that Joe believes that his way of life and his particular beliefs should take precedence over the Constitution.

Only if there was something specific that was contrary to the Word of God. (I guess being a "conscientious objector" is only OK for anti-war people, but not for anti-abortion people )

 

[LakeAriel]

That poster was not the OP. Did you think I was serious? -- where's your sense of humor, oh sarcastic one.



Only if there was something specific that was contrary to the Word of God. (I guess being a "conscientious objector" is only OK for anti-war people, but not for anti-abortion people )

Aren't they the same? I mean if you are anti-abortion surely you are anti-war?
You know pro-life for fetuses, pro-life for those already born? How could you be more concerned with a fetus then a child?

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Aren't they the same? I mean if you are anti-abortion surely you are anti-war?
You know pro-life for fetuses, pro-life for those already born? How could you be more concerned with a fetus then a child?

I did not say that I was concerned more with one over the other.

The life of a child in the womb and a child outside the womb deserve the same right to life.

 

[LakeAriel]

I did not say that I was concerned more with one over the other.

The life of a child in the womb and a child outside the womb deserve the same right to life.

I said fetus, Joe...Let's say a 30 day embryo, not child.
Does an embryo have the same right to life as your children?
Does an Iraqi child have the same right to life as an embryo

I have no problem with you being against abortion. It's pro- choice. Not that you will ever make a choice because you will never be pregnant. I just can't understand how people who advocate bombing the hell out of other nations children can scream murder when someone aborts an embryo.

 

[MossMan]

I have no problem with you being against abortion. It's pro- choice. Not that you will ever make a choice because you will never be pregnant. I just can't understand how people who advocate bombing the hell out of other nations children can scream murder when someone aborts an embryo.

You can’t equate the two like that, they are not the same thing. Here’s the difference:

We give the state a monopoly on violence. This is for our own protection. The state in turn must exercise this right judiciously. This is a balancing act to be sure. If the state’s police and soldiers are not aggressive enough in their use of violence, the citizens of the state will suffer. Conversely, if the state’s police and soldiers are too aggressive in the use of violence, the citizen’s will replace the leaders of the state.

War cannot be fought without the death of innocents. If we were to refuse to fight war because of these deaths, then we would be leaving ourselves open to very violence war is ultimately meant to prevent.

Now, the case of abortion is completely different. Abortion is the exercise of violence by individuals. Furthermore, it is the exercise of violence without any controls. If a government wants to bomb some county, it has to go through a legal process to acquire the permission to do so and then answer for its decision down the road. A woman, though, can walk into an abortion clinic virtually anytime they feel like it, get an abortion and then do it again a few months later if the need again arises – no questions asked. It is this right that most pro-lifers have a problem with.

So it is possible to abhor the violence visited on innocents during war while still defending the right of states to use exactly this type of violence. Just like it is possible to abhor the violence that results from abortions.

I have a question for you LakeAriel, how is it possible for you to get angry at the deaths of hundreds (or thousands) of children in Iraq while not getting equally angry at the abortion deaths of hundreds of thousands (or millions) of unborn children in America? It would seem to me that if you hate one, you should hate the other as well

 

[LakeAriel]

The difference is children vs unborn children. I do not applaud abortion, I much prefer birth control but children become pregnant, people are raped etc. There are numerous reasons people choose abortion. I had a miscarriage many years ago before I even knew I was pregnant but the embryo was about 60 days old. It was not recognizable at all. It was human tissue, not a baby. Did it have a soul? Well, only God can answer that. The fifth commandment says Thou shall not kill. How can you attack a country, kill it's citizens (call it collateral damage, dead is dead) and claim to be such a great Christian and demonize those that support the right to choose abortion? Iraq has proven not to be a war of self defense but preemptive.

 

[Apothecary]

This is a little off topic, but it occured to me the other day...

Bush defends the right to pre-emptively strike against an imminent threat...does that mean, oh, say, Iran or N.Korea ALSO have the right to launch an attack against, um, I dunno, Israel or the USA if THEY feel threatened? Who decides who gets to invade who?

 

[LakeAriel]

This is a little off topic, but it occured to me the other day...

Bush defends the right to pre-emptively strike against an imminent threat...does that mean, oh, say, Iran or N.Korea ALSO have the right to launch an attack against, um, I dunno, Israel or the USA if THEY feel threatened? Who decides who gets to invade who?

Well of course! Therein lies the manner in which Bush has increased the danger to us. It can be argued that is the philosophy Bin Laden adhered to. Also the way World War III can begin. I'll push the button, no I'll push it first, and before you know it, life as we know it will cease to exist. Then we won't need to argue whose life is more valuable. It is, in itself, a disasterous mindset!