Auto Bailout Talks Collapse

[Charade]

You are correct. Here is a link to this memo http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/12/1713569.aspxA large portion of the GOP opposition to saving jobs is a desire to punish the UAW for its past support of Democratic candidates.

Well, isn't that interesting. I believe the first part of the memo to be true. But that's different. Right?

 

[CarlaKay]

Here is the Countdown story on this memo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYEPLKGtPk It is pretty clear that from both this memo and what Corker told the UAW that the GOP main concern is punishing the unions for past support of the Democratic party.

 

[Charade]

Here is the Countdown story on this memo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYEPLKGtPk It is pretty clear that from both this memo and what Corker told the UAW that the GOP main concern is punishing the unions for past support of the Democratic party.

And your thoughts on the first part of the memo?

 

[jodifla]

Hmmm...when I read it, it sounds as much like a defensive move (stopping Democrats from rewarding unions) as it does offensive.

Regardless, if the Democrats wanted this, they could have passed it. My understanding is that 52 Senators voted for it. That was 40 Democrats, 10 Republicans, and 2 Independents. 4 Democrats (apparently in a fit of evil ) voted against it, including Majority Leader Harry Read. 4 other Democrats didn't bother to vote, including the Vice President Elect. I didn't see the President Elects name on the list. I guess he has already resigned his seat and Blagojevich hasn't closed a sale on it yet. If only those darned evil Democrats had united behind the bill, they could have passed it.

Someone posted a link to a Michelle Malkin column...that actually lists the wrong cloture vote, it looks like. I don't think that count is correct.

 

[CarlaKay]

And your thoughts on the first part of the memo?

I was amazed at the partisanship and the hate shown for our country by the GOP senators who drafted this memo. The emergency aid to the automakers is not a payback to the unions but a step necessary to prevent the loss of 3 million jobs and the further collapse of the US economy. The concept that these hateful and partisan republican southern senators would ignore the realities of the situation and instead focus on how this situation would benefit the republican party is truly sad and disgusting.

bush and Paulsen are considering using the TARP funds to provide the emergency funding necessary to keep GM and Chrysler alive until the Obama adminstration takes office. bush is doing this so that neither he nor the GOP will be considered the party of Herbert Hoover. I was amazed to see that cheney actually got something right last week when he warned that if the GOP allowed the auto industry to die on GOP watch, then it would take a generation for the GOP to recover. As evidenced by this memo, these Southern GOP senators do not care about the country and want to advance their partisan goals by hurting the unions any way they can.

This memo is truly one of the dumbest things done in a long time and is even dumber than the Terri Schiavo memo that cause Mel Martinez to decide not to run for re-election.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Someone posted a link to a Michelle Malkin column...that actually lists the wrong cloture vote, it looks like. I don't think that count is correct.

It's correct. Here is the link to the Senate role call. I admit that it is confusing as the bill is described as "Alternative Minimum Tax Relief Act of 2008", but that is an artifact of the way the Senate works. They often re-purpose bills for procedural reasons. If you'd like a little more evidence, here is the list of Senate roll call votes, with only one having been taken in December of this year. Finally, if you aren't willing to believe someone that you believe to be evil, here is a link to a Democratic Underground discussion on the subject. *** Warning *** The Democratic Underground link has language that many will find offensive.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I was amazed at the partisanship and the hate shown for our country by the GOP senators who drafted this memo. The emergency aid to the automakers is not a payback to the unions but a step necessary to prevent the loss of 3 million jobs and the further collapse of the US economy. The concept that these hateful and partisan republican southern senators would ignore the realities of the situation and instead focus on how this situation would benefit the republican party is truly sad and disgusting.

bush and Paulsen are considering using the TARP funds to provide the emergency funding necessary to keep GM and Chrysler alive until the Obama adminstration takes office. bush is doing this so that neither he nor the GOP will be considered the party of Herbert Hoover. I was amazed to see that cheney actually got something right last week when he warned that if the GOP allowed the auto industry to die on GOP watch, then it would take a generation for the GOP to recover. As evidenced by this memo, these Southern GOP senators do not care about the country and want to advance their partisan goals by hurting the unions any way they can.

This memo is truly one of the dumbest things done in a long time and is even dumber than the Terri Schiavo memo that cause Mel Martinez to decide not to run for re-election.

I request again that people refrain from ad hominem attacks like this. What you are doing is no different than when people's patriotism was being questioned for opposing the war. I asked my Senator to oppose this bill not for reasons of hate or personal gain.

I sincerely believe that our country, its citizens, and people around the world would be better off if we did not bailout the US auto industry. I may be wrong, but it is what I honestly believe. Feel free to criticize my ideas and positions all you want.

In my opinion, people demonizing those that they disagree are doing more harm to the country than any policy that has been put into place. I blame both sides of the political spectrum for this bad habit. Please refrain from incorrectly tarring people with whom you disagree as being hateful. Whether you do so out of ignorance or as a malicious lie, it harms your argument and does not bolster it.

As for the memo, you should think about it from the perspective of Republicans. They (and I) see increased union power as a threat to our economy and to workers. I look at the effect of unions in Europe and I see much higher unemployment and strikes that cripple cities or even entire nations. That worries me. I read about proposed changes to our laws that would take away my right to a secret vote if some of my co-workers wanted us to unionize. I read about other changes that would overrule Texas's "right to work" laws. These things concern me and so I oppose changes to the laws that would further strengthen unions. I want my representatives to fight laws that would strengthen unions either by giving union leaders more power or by sending my money to support uneconomic business models that overallocate resources to unions. I don't hate laborers, but I don't want rules that strengthen unions at the expense of everyone else and, in the long run, the union workers themselves.

 

[minnie61650]

.... Please refrain from incorrectly tarring people with whom you disagree as being hateful. ....They (and I) see increased union power as a threat to our economy and to workers. .....

I may disagree with others and yes some may even disagree with my views out of spite or hate but I have no way knowing if they truly believe their viwes are correct or if it really is hate so I aways try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As for Unions they were needed in the past when work conditions were very poor.

The Unions of today in the USA are no longer near as powerful as they were 10 or 20 years ago. I feel they are ebbing away and that they will soon be passe' . I do not fear them at all.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tigger Woods]

Here is the Countdown story on this memo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucYEPLKGtPk It is pretty clear that from both this memo and what Corker told the UAW that the GOP main concern is punishing the unions for past support of the Democratic party.

As I pointed out in another thread, this memo is obviously bogus. First of all, it's unattributed. (Never a good sign.) Secondly, why would an official Republican memo capitalize the word 'Republicans', but not capitalize the word 'Democrats' .. twice. Do Republicans despise Democrats that much? I don't think so. I'm guessing this was done by a blogger. The bigger question is: Why would MSNBC sink to such a level to report this as fact?

 

[minnie61650]

I want my representatives to fight laws that would strengthen unions either by giving union leaders more power or by sending my money to support uneconomic business models that overallocate resources to unions. I don't hate laborers, but I don't want rules that strengthen unions at the expense of everyone else and, in the long run, the union workers themselves.

So you feel if the congress had given a bidge loan to the Auto companies than that would be same as supporting laws that would strengthen unions either by giving union leaders more power or by sending money to support uneconomic business models that overallocate resources to unions?

I honestly do not understand what one has to with other.

 

[whjoyjr]

As I pointed out in another thread, this memo is obviously bogus.

Disagree...

First of all, it's unattributed. (Never a good sign.)

Spin...

Secondly, why would an official Republican memo capitalize the word 'Republicans', but not capitalize the word 'Democrats' .. twice. Do Republicans despise Democrats that much? I don't think so.

HATRED is running deep in the Republican Party at the lower levels. They are running a "Scorched Earth" policy right now while they hold onto some power. They still do not understand how they lost to "That One"...

I'm guessing this was done by a blogger. The bigger question is: Why would MSNBC sink to such a level to report this as fact?

As you said, you are guessing. MY guess, the author is a mid-level GOP operative who was in a rush. Remember, this was not a press release.

GOP is trying to stick it to the unions before leaving town and riding off into the sunset...

 

[minnie61650]

As I pointed out in another thread, this memo is obviously bogus. First of all, it's unattributed. (Never a good sign.) Secondly, why would an official Republican memo capitalize the word 'Republicans', but not capitalize the word 'Democrats' .. twice. Do Republicans despise Democrats that much? I don't think so. I'm guessing this was done by a blogger. The bigger question is: Why would MSNBC sink to such a level to report this as fact?

The memo was mentioned in one of the Detroit free press articles today:

With auto rescue's collapse, new Congress to inherit grudges
BY TODD SPANGLER, JUSTIN HYDE and TIM HIGGINS • FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS • December 13, 2008


<snip>

On Friday, Gettelfinger mentioned an e-mail that had been circulating announcing a news conference involving several Republican critics of the auto bill.

It said the senators hoped to deliver the message that this was "the Democrats first opportunity to pay off organized labor after the election" and was "a precursor to card check and other items."

The hard feelings clearly spread beyond the Senate, however, on Friday, with House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer chiding Republicans.


"Every member of Congress should be focused on the overall economy right now, not on satisfying long-standing grudges," he said.

In Lansing, Gov. Jennifer Granholm said the senators who opposed the automaker rescue were biased.

"The favoritism that was shown to those foreign companies at the expense of American industries was, frankly, shocking," she said.

For a time Thursday, it appeared the UAW and Senate Republicans would reach a deal on the $14-billion plan.


According to Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd of Connecticut, who represented Democratic leaders in the talks, agreement was reached on several issues -- including trading cash for equity in the companies to help fund employee health care.

But the issue that split them was wages and benefits.

Corker and the Republicans pressed the UAW to put them on the same level as what workers earn at Toyota, Nissan, Honda and BMW in the United States by the end of next year.

The union said it would try to do so by the time its contracts expire in 2011.

It wasn't good enough for Republican senators (even though 10 Republicans voted for the bill and four Democrats voted against it), who had enough support to stop the bill short of the needed 60 votes.

Dodd said if Senate Republicans sent Corker off with "perfection" as his goal, "he was sent on a mission he could never complete." Corker said he thought a deal was close, if only the UAW had been a little more flexible.

"The only way the bill was going to pass out of the Senate and the House on the Democratic side was for the UAW to say, 'We release you to vote for this,' " Corker said. "That's politics."


Dodd said the GOP was trying to score a political point on the union.

Gettelfinger said the union balked because it was singled out to make changes to reduce costs under the legislation while other automotive stakeholders would have seen their timetables for change set by an auto czar to be appointed under the legislation.

He said the union made it clear Thursday night that "we were prepared to make further sacrifices."

"But we could not accept the effort by the Senate GOP caucus to single out workers and retirees ... and to make them shoulder the entire burden of restructuring," Gettelfinger said.

He emphasized that the UAW had made concessions since 2003, including last week when he announced the union would push back the automakers' payments to the retiree trust fund, which helps the companies save billions of dollars in the meantime.

Gettelfinger also took aim at criticism over UAW wages and demands that compensation be made the same as foreign auto companies' U.S. plants.

He pointed to research that showed Toyota workers at a plant in Kentucky were making, with bonuses, $30 an hour, compared with the $28.12 an hour paid to UAW workers at the Detroit automakers.

 

[Tigger Woods]

Disagree...



Spin...



HATRED is running deep in the Republican Party at the lower levels. They are running a "Scorched Earth" policy right now while they hold onto some power. They still do not understand how they lost to "That One"...



As you said, you are guessing. MY guess, the author is a mid-level GOP operative who was in a rush. Remember, this was not a press release.

GOP is trying to stick it to the unions before leaving town and riding off into the sunset...

This is too funny. The faux memo ends with: "The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better." If Republicans wanted this released to the press, why did MSNBC edit the writer's name out? Maybe because it's some blogger with no legitimate connection to the GOP? You can't make this stuff up ..

 

[MarkBarbieri]

So you feel if the congress had given a bidge loan to the Auto companies than that would be same as supporting laws that would strengthen unions either by giving union leaders more power or by sending money to support uneconomic business models that overallocate resources to unions?

I honestly do not understand what one has to with other.

First, I don't believe that we are talking about bridge loans. I know that they are intended that way, but I don't think that GM is ever going to repay them. I think that, barring a major downsizing (which the unions, among others, are preventing), GM will never returned to sustained profitability and will need either continuous taxpayer funding (similar to Amtrak) or will eventually fail.

As to how the loans "support uneconomic business models that overallocate resources to unions", I'll explain. I think that GM spends far too much on labor for what it produces. Some of that is because it's wages are higher than the industry average. Some of that is because the union rules make its workforce less efficient than its competitors. Some of that is because union contracts prevent GM from laying off as many workers as they need to. If we leave GM to its own devices, one of two things will happen. In the best case, the shareholders, unions, and creditors will get together and restructure their contracts so that the company can survive. The other, more likely scenario, is that GM will go bankrupt. At that point, the creditors (now the new owners) will have more leverage in renegotiating contracts to make GM more viable for the long term.

If, instead of leaving GM on its own, we start injecting capital, no one is likely to take much of a cut. Why should the union cut wages, work rules, or anti-layoff provisions, if the company can continue to pay? I'm sure that they will agree to some cuts, but it will be far less than they would without the bailout. That will leave GM with labor costs that are too high, a workforce that is too inefficient, and a labor force that is too large. Why, because taxpayers will be subsidizing them.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

HATRED is running deep in the Republican Party at the lower levels.

Speaking as someone that has voted Republican in many elections and knows a great many Republicans, I can categorically say that HATRED is not running deep in the Republican Party at the lower levels. Many people that I know hate unions and the deleterious effect that they have on people, but they don't hate the workers.

Please quit demonizing people that have different opinions on what policies will create the best future for our world.

 

[profdsny]

This is too funny. The faux memo ends with: "The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better." If Republicans wanted this released to the press, why did MSNBC edit the writer's name out? Maybe because it's some blogger with no legitimate connection to the GOP? You can't make this stuff up ..

Don't know about the authenticity or not, nor do I care. However, what it seems is that this was simply a quick memo or note to like minded members, in which case misspellings, poor grammar, etc, would be fairly unimportant to the writer.

 

[Charade]

Speaking as someone that has voted Republican in many elections and knows a great many Republicans, I can categorically say that HATRED is not running deep in the Republican Party at the lower levels. Many people that I know hate unions and the deleterious effect that they have on people, but they don't hate the workers.

Please quit demonizing people that have different opinions on what policies will create the best future for our world.

They can't help themselves. It's ALWAYS personal with them.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

They can't help themselves. It's ALWAYS personal with them.

I'm hoping that the irony is intended.

 

[Charade]

Don't know about the authenticity or not, nor do I care. However, what it seems is that this was simply a quick memo or note to like minded members, in which case misspellings, poor grammar, etc, would be fairly unimportant to the writer.

Wow. You don't care if it was authentic or not? Really??

It could have been a "quick memo" to paint Republicans in a bad light. I find it funny that all this angst is being aimed at Republican when the roll call clearly shows some Dems vote against the bill while a few more Dems didn't even vote at all. But somehow this is all the hatefilled "It's payback time!!" Republicans doing that this bill failed.

 

[Charade]

I'm hoping that the irony is intended.

OK. Maybe not all and always.