Atheism in decline? (debate likely)

[wvrevy]

Boy, it sure seems like religion (especially Christianity) gets a bad rap. As I look through the last page or two of the thread I see allusions to Christianity being the nurturing ground for hypocrisy, bigotry, hate, and other negative characteristics.

Religion deserves that rap. It has more than earned it over the centuries. But what else could you expect ? You are talking about something that, by it's very nature, is exclusionary to anyone that does not "believe" as you do.

Let me give you an example: I am agnostic, leaning towards atheist. By the teachings of every christian church that I know of, I am sentenced to eternal damnation because of that belief. This in spite of how I live my life. I could live my life as a saint...Dedicate all my spare time to others...Be a "good samaritan" and help others when they need it...NEVER harm another living soul...Yet I am to be tortured in the fiery pit for all eternity, simply because I don't believe an unbelievable story ?

Frankly, even if I'm wrong, I have no desire to "worship" a "god" that would be that egotistical. In my opinion, if atheism isn't on the rise, it's a darn shame.

 

[jenfur]

jenfur I would appreciate an answer to my question...



Just wanted to add the question.....

If homosexuals are not legally allowed to get married how can their morals be faulted any more than a heterosexual's?

Actually I posted a lengthy answer last night during the "server problem" and it didn't show up. I'll try again. My athiest cousin and my brother's athiest girlfriend both are very much against homosexuality. They think it is un-natural in that it in no way promotes survival of the species, they also think it is gross. I myself am a Christian, but I am not a homosexual - it is not something I feel qualified to pass judgement on. The Bible says it is sin, but it also says all premarital sex is sinful- so maybe it is all in the motive of the person- I don't know. I know too many perfectly decent people, even a few Christians who are gay to simply say they are doomed to hell because they are gay. I used to be more against, but after further study have learned to just leave this issue to the people who have to live it. I will never know what a gay persons feelings are or what they go through. I don't think God condemns people for being gay.

 

[jenfur]

The first thing I learned in biochemistry class (taught by a Christian Brother BTW) is that life is the opposite of entropy, that every living organism lives in defiance of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics until they die.

This is simply oversimplification. Life is NOT the opposite of entrophy. Every living thing is dying and in the process of entrophy. I often hear about flowers growing from seeds, but this is just the life cycle- from the moment something lives- it begins to die, regardless of the transistions it makes during that time.

We still do not know how life was created on Earth. Perhaps it was just random floating molecules coming together, perhaps it was a Divine spark, maybe it was Q (for you trekkies out there). However, once that life WAS created, we do know, within the limits of current scientific knowledge, how it evolved.

I do not disagree with microevolution.

 

[jenfur]

I was taught evolution in my 10th grade biology class. I believe creatures adapt to situations and enivornments, but do not believe it was the origin of life. I agree to the comment that says creatism and evolution may be intertwined to make the end result.

I was slightly offended by responses here...while I will *not* say creatism is fact...for it is just what I believe with all of my heart and soul... The fact you laugh at the OP's beliefs (despite that she is claiming it's fact, and you don't agree), offends me in that I agree with her to a point.

Those who believe in a higher power and not less educated in science...they just have heard the facts, and have decided that their faith is strong enough to see past them to reveal the Truth (in our opinion).

Thanks- I do not mean to come off as arrogant by stating things as facts, but since people who believe diffferently are allowed to just offhand disregard my beliefs by stating theirs as fact are leading by example.

 

[totalia]

I don't believe there is decline in atheism. Atheist are just looked over because they aren't visibly out there. I don't pass any atheist church's or encounter people peddling atheism at the mall - simply because that would be an oxymoron.
I think it truly lies in peoples understanding of science - and use or wording. Most Christians use the word "theory" as if it means "wild guess". I don't see these major gaps in evolution... what I notice are the major gaps in the Bible. Why does Genesis date the creation of Earth back only 6000 years? People argue that there are "omissions" from the geneology. Well, that would be THEIR guess, wouldn't it? Nothing unnerves me more than people adjusting the scripture to follow scientific fact.
If you don't believe in the Big Bang because you follow Creationism - then I have a question for you - Who or What created God? If you believe God always existed than why is it such a stretch to believe that the building blocks of the universe have always existed?
The Greeks whole heartedly believed in Zeus, Hera, & Apollo - but now that is smiled upon as "silly mythology stories" because obviously someone isn't pulling the sun with a chariot. Why is it easy for Christians to discredit them and not understand why someone else would question their God?

Wow. Very well put.

You know, I actually had someone answer those questions by saying "God created himself and the other questions don't matter."

 

[Planogirl]

Schools should NOT teach beliefs. I still don't think that there's enough evidence of creationism to even consider it a theory. I believe in a higher power but I don't see any persuasive physical evidence that indicates to me that it's any more than a personal belief.

Too often Christians try to disprove evolution and then triumphantly state that creationism must be true if evolution is wrong. If evolution is wrong, it simply means that we don't know the truth yet IMO.

 

[jenfur]

I just wanted to say, I think most people would agree that Ward Churchill is just as much of a whack job as Jerry Falwell.

In any event, why do some feel the need to have their religion beliefs taught at public school? Religion is a personal matter that does not belong in public institutions. I don't want my children to be taught religious beliefs and values that I don't agree with! That is a parent's job--not a public school's.

I would agree with you completely, if public schools didn't pick and choose which values are okay and which are not. I don't what is taught in schools in other areas but here, we have quite a few "values" classes because the school doesn't think the parents are teaching their kids the right ones. I also have no problem with evolution on a small scale, but in my school and in my children's we were taught that evolution explained the origins of the universe. I do not want ANY religions taught in school. What I did like was my 10th grade biology teacher who said "We do not know how the universe was created, there are many theories." We then spent the week listing several including intelligent design. (He let us know that he was not supposed to touch on that subject but the class brought it up so we proceeded). When then proceeded to why moths in England change colors that was that. No school board meeting- no burning of books- certainly no tent revivals. It was also the only class I have ever been in that allowed for such a free discussion. I think students can handle way more information than society gives them credit for. Maybe the firm control on this information is why society is so easily offended by every opinion that doesn't conform to what Ms. Jones said.

 

[tlgoblue]

Interesting. I am from Ft. Wayne. DW and I were married there nearly 25 years ago. My folks still live there. My father was Jewish, for example and NEVER experienced anti-semitism in any way more widespread than anywhere else in the country. Indiana in general, and Fort Wayne in particular aren't anywhere near the bible belt, so I'm surprised by your experience.

How can it be more insidious thatn coersion?

That is interesting. I wish I had known that sooner. I would have asked you to hook me up with a more tolerant group.

Galahad, I am in no way suggesting that Fort Wayne is any more Anti-semitic than any place else, just more than I'm used to. Also, people in Fort Wayne aknowledge their conservative Christianity and are very proud of it. And, I have always thought that you would fit in nicely in Fort Wayne based on your posts. Again that is in no way meant with any disrespect whatsoever. You just seem to think that your views are mainstream, while I find them usually right of center, though not radically. People here are of like mind and it is my opinion that they see themselves as moderates. However, I have it from many Fort Waynians, that this is one of the most conservative enclaves in the nation, regardless of their position in the Bible belt.

As far as coercion is concerned, coercion tends to be much more covert in nature. Here is an example of the insidious nature of the way faith finds its way into every aspect of the community. I realize that the word insidious tarnishes faith somehow, but with regard to using it to forward specific agendum in the community, it think it is appropriate.

Recently, the school district here in Aboite Township enacted a new drug policy. All children 6th grade and above will be required to submit to random drug testing if they want to participate in any school sponsered extra-curricular activity. This had been bandied about for a long time and was tabled for lack of support until a Pastor of a local congregation took it on as his cause. He began promoting it in his Church and others were quick to follow suit. Parrishioners were encouraged to support this as a stop-gap measure to safeguard our children form the "devil's work." DD attends school with the son of the "Faith director" who was/is on the board of this
NAND committe. (No Alcohol No Drugs) This was what he told DD his dad told his parrishoners. The committee did great things to discourage kids from drugs and alcohol. Education, Party Safe homes, social events, and so on. But the community always balked at the drug testing thing. Too much big brother. Suddenly it was back on the agenda with the full support of the
"Faith Community."

I am not exagerating when I tell you that it was THE talk of the community. I couldn't even go to Meijer without hearing someone discuss what they had heard in Church about the new "community initiative." I overheard one woman say to another that they really didn't care what the naysayers thought, and that she would just as soon have them leave the community. "If it will help our kids, who cares if it infringes on a few freedoms. That is just their perception."

I will not have a debate on this issue (on this thread ), but again, it is just an illustration of how faith can influence an entire community.

 

[sodaseller]

I would agree with you completely, if public schools didn't pick and choose which values are okay and which are not. I don't what is taught in schools in other areas but here, we have quite a few "values" classes because the school doesn't think the parents are teaching their kids the right ones. I also have no problem with evolution on a small scale, but in my school and in my children's we were taught that evolution explained the origins of the universe. I do not want ANY religions taught in school. What I did like was my 10th grade biology teacher who said "We do not know how the universe was created, there are many theories." We then spent the week listing several including intelligent design. (He let us know that he was not supposed to touch on that subject but the class brought it up so we proceeded). When then proceeded to why moths in England change colors that was that. No school board meeting- no burning of books- certainly no tent revivals. It was also the only class I have ever been in that allowed for such a free discussion. I think students can handle way more information than society gives them credit for. Maybe the firm control on this information is why society is so easily offended by every opinion that doesn't conform to what Ms. Jones said.

Love your sticker - we have a similar one.

I would just say that in response to Christians that are troubled by atheists, heed the words of St. Francis - "Preach the Gospel Daily; use words if necessary." Any example in thw way you live your life will speak far more powerfully than any eloquent apologetics that escape your mouth.

If your aim is to convert the uncoverted as per the Great Commission, no unbeliever will be left unmoved by the example of a truly Christian life. If those of us self-professed Christians lived as Christ taught, and I am the worst example of the contrary, all of humanity would be converted in little time. I would submit that the principle objection many unbelievers have to Christianity is that it is too little practiced

 

[DisDuck]

jenfur.."What I did like was my 10th grade biology teacher who said "We do not know how the universe was created, there are many theories." We then spent the week listing several including intelligent design."

It is pretty much accepted fact that only Big Bang can explain what AstroPhysics tells us about the originals of the Universe. The contrary opinion was Steady-State and that the Universe had completed expanding and was slowing down. Use of the Hubble and other instruments has shown that expansion is continuing. Using these instruments along with 'red-shift' and other mathematical formulas the projected age of the Universe is about 14 billion years. So there is now only 1 theory. I continue to ask this question whenever 'intelligent design' is brought up and the only answer I get is 'higher power' skirting the issue of religion. Unless one accepts that it might have been 'little green men' or the Monolith from 2001-A Space Odessey, in otherwords an alien life force, as part of the discussion I am left with 'G-d'/Higher-Power as the only answer. This is a religious answer/belief as it is 'spiritual' in nature. So someone answer the question, were we visited by 'aliens' and they planted the seed of humanity? If so where is your proof?

 

[DisDuck]

sodaseller.. Are you saying I need to abandon my religious beliefs in favor of yours? Otherwise I am a non-believer? If so, who died and left you in charge.

 

[Galahad]

That is interesting. And, I have always thought that you would fit in nicely in Fort Wayne based on your posts. Again that is in no way meant with any disrespect whatsoever. You just seem to think that your views are mainstream, while I find them usually right of center, though not radically. People here are of like mind and it is my opinion that they see themselves as moderates. However, I have it from many Fort Waynians, that this is one of the most conservative enclaves in the nation, regardless of their position in the Bible belt.

Recently, the school district here in Aboite Township enacted a new drug policy.

Very interesting. Thanks, I do fit in nicely there. Indy is now home and really our favorite place, but Ft. Wayne is really "home". Yes, I believe that my views are mainstream. Most who have been posting on threads with me over the years would also agree that they are right of center, but ever-so-slightly right of center. IMO, just right or just left of center ARE mainstream views. Politically, N.E. Indiana can be relied on the vote conservatively sure, just as Indianapolis can be relied on to vote more liberally. There is not an inch worth of difference between the two populations though, for example.

My sister taught in the Southwest Allen Co schools for several years before moving down this way for her husband's job. They loved it there and I know she would not have gotten a charge out of being in a hyper-conservative community. I know you were just offering an illustration of how churches can influence people to take certain actions. I'm not sure I understand how that is a bad thing, or even how radical a drug testing policy in schools is. That churches encourage their members to get involved in their communities is really not the same, IMO, a "religion getting into the schools".

I would submit that people in Fort Wayne that ARE conservative Christians proudly acknowledge it. Not sure why they shouldn't. But my experience is that the modifiers "Conservative Christian" are not axiomatically attributable to the community as a whole.

So it could very well be that our definitions of mainstream are different. I have lived a number of places and experienced quite a few MUCH more conservative and religious that both Ft. Wayne and Indiana.

So I guess I'm sorry you feel the need to go. We came back to Indiana after a few years away with Uncle Sam and find it it the MOST un-radical place we've lived (and we've lived in D.C., N.C., FL and I've lived in Denver).

Edited to add: For example, I do not define myself as a "Conservative Christian" in the sense you mean. I resent when politics is even hinted at in my faith community. This is true of my friends and relatives in Fort Wayne as well. I would submit that that is the mainstream.

 

[sodaseller]

sodaseller.. Are you saying I need to abandon my religious beliefs in favor of yours? Otherwise I am a non-believer? If so, who died and left you in charge.

Not sure what I said that suggested as much - wasn't what I meant. I may have been misconstrued. My only point was in response to Christians who assert apologetics to try to convert others. I think the way you live your life is far more important. Sorry if I gave offense - not the intention at all. My message was not intended to be disrespectful.

 

[phillybeth]

If your aim is to convert the uncoverted as per the Great Commission, no unbeliever will be left unmoved by the example of a truly Christian life. If those of us self-professed Christians lived as Christ taught, and I am the worst example of the contrary, all of humanity would be converted in little time.

Nope. Not even close. I have met many true Christians and it has not swayed my beliefs even a little. And I'm SO glad you respect my beliefs but you expect me to accord yours the same respect? Do unto others...

 

[sodaseller]

Wow, such hostility. Not at all what I intended. No disrespect was intended. Think some are looking for offense

 

[phillybeth]

Wow, such hostility. Not at all what I intended. No disrespect was inteneded. Think some are looking for offense

Only when it is offered. Let me turn it around...

I would just say that in response to atheists that are troubled by Christians, heed these words- "Preach the atheistic way daily; use words if necessary." Any example in the way you live your life will speak far more powerfully than any eloquent apologetics that escape your mouth.

If your aim is to convert the uncoverted, no believer will be left unmoved by the example of a truly atheistic life. If those of us self-professed Atheists lived as Christ taught, and I am the worst example of the contrary, all of humanity would be converted in little time. I would submit that the principle objection many unbelievers have to Atheism is that it is too little practiced.

If I or any other atheist that has posted to this thread posted this, would you be offended?

edited to add: What I am TRULY offended by is your belief that you can change my beliefs by your actions or your prayers.

 

[sodaseller]

Only when it is offered. Let me turn it around...

I would just say that in response to atheists that are troubled by Christians, heed these words- "Preach the atheistic way daily; use words if necessary." Any example in the way you live your life will speak far more powerfully than any eloquent apologetics that escape your mouth.

If your aim is to convert the uncoverted, no believer will be left unmoved by the example of a truly atheistic life. If those of us self-professed Atheists lived as Christ taught, and I am the worst example of the contrary, all of humanity would be converted in little time. I would submit that the principle objection many unbelievers have to Atheism is that it is too little practiced.

If I or any other atheist that has posted to this thread posted this, would you be offended?

edited to add: What I am TRULY offended by is your belief that you can change my beliefs by your actions or your prayers.

Offended not in the least, notwithstanding the fact that yours was intended to offer offense, and mine was not, was not even directed to an unbeliever, if you read it honestly - review the urtext.

Never felt the need to engage in faith-based contretemps, which was the point - Truth is borne out by action in the end, not words

Reading your replies, I am reasonably certain that you are beyond any form of metanoia or persuasion on this issue. Maybe others as well.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

 

[tlgoblue]

So I guess I'm sorry you feel the need to go. We came back to Indiana after a few years away with Uncle Sam and find it it the MOST un-radical place we've lived (and we've lived in D.C., N.C., FL and I've lived in Denver).

Edited to add: For example, I do not define myself as a "Conservative Christian" in the sense you mean. I resent when politics is even hinted at in my faith community. This is true of my friends and relatives in Fort Wayne as well. I would submit that that is the mainstream.

Not leaving Fort Wayne because of the aformentioned reasons. They were, however, considerations in our descision. My apologies for muddling politics with religion. That is something I am for keeping separate.

As to some of your other points, I don't think that Churches, Synagogues,
Mosques, or whatever ones faith organization is, being involved in the community is a bad thing. It can be a very good thing, as long as it is inclusive of the entire community. As to drug testing in schools, I'll save that for a separate debate. Also, as for our definitions of mainstream, I guess it just gets back to my point about things being different depending on the way one was raised or where one parks their hat at night.

I also must apologize to anyone that may have misunderstood my point. I was in no way implying that Fort Wayne was full of religious zealots, just that faith is alive and well here. It is the mainstream.

edited to add
Also, and I mean this with all my heart, there are a great many things I will miss about Indiana. When I have referred to her as "my little Indiana", I mean that with complete affection. Yes, there are things about it here that I hate, but I won't be rushing back to Michigan anytime soon either. My experience here has taught me many things, some good and some not so good. Again, I just don't fit in here very well, but that does not mean that it is because of some shortcomming in this beautiful, bountiful state. Anyway, for what it's worth.

 

[Galahad]

I also must apologize to anyone that may have misunderstood my point. I was in no way implying that Fort Wayne was full of religious zealots, just that faith is alive and well here. It is the mainstream.

Understood.

I hope you have a safe trip. Are you driving to California and will you have kids in tow?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

tlgoblue,
CA sounds like a great place to move! Have a great trip!