Anyone know much about living trusts?

jennilouwho

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Messages
1,175
Hi!

We don't own much for property and we just want to make sure our kids are taken care of if we should die young. We're using the Nolo Living Trust software. My question is, can we just name the Living Trust as a beneficiary on our bank/savings/life insurance, or do I specifically need to list each one of those in the trust? I've tried searching online, but I'm having a hard time finding the answer to my question. Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Jen
 
The purpose of a Living Trust is to avoid probate. The only way to do this is everything must actually be owned by the Trust. For example, if you own cars, the name on the title must be the trust. If you buy a new car, a car that you trade in must be transferred by the trust and the new car titled to the Trust.

It can really complicate your life. Unless you are worth a few million dollars, you are just better off with wills. And it is a lot easier to change the terms of a will than the terms of a Trust.

Mike (CPA Retired)
 
Oh! You are my hero! We are definitely not worth millions... :) Can I ask you one more thing then? I keep getting conflicting information from different people. We have two young children. For now, I want all our money to go to help the guardian with expenses. Do I list the guardian as the beneficiary on bank accounts, life insurance accounts, and what not then? I had read if I list the children, then no one can touch the money 'til they are 18. I don't know if what I have read is true or not. I appreciate any help. We do trust the guardian 100 percent to use they money for their expenses. I haven't started the Willmaker program yet, so maybe this is all covered in there....
 
You really should talk to an estate planning attorney since you have children you are trying to provide for. The problem with DIY legal work is that you don't see the problems until it's too late. Trusts were the big thing 20+ years ago, but they aren't really used as much now. Also, make sure you have enough life insurance...if you're young and healthy you should be able to get a term policy fairly inexpensively.

Good for you for making sure your kiddos are taken care of.
 

The guardian should never be listed individually as a beneficiary - it will become their money and no guarantee they will use it for the kiddos (you'd be surprised at what happens).

You'll need to name the guardian as the physical guardian (we call this the "hugs and kisses" guardian) and utilize a custodial arrangement (trust, etc) for the funds for the benefit of the kiddos.

You should consult an estate planning attorney who can help you make sure that everything is titled correctly and can determine whether you need a pour over will, living trust, etc. and who can make sure the funds get to the kids properly.

As an FYI, all of my clients with kids have trusts established for their benefits within their wills (I practice in NY and FL).
 
The guardian should never be listed individually as a beneficiary - it will become their money and no guarantee they will use it for the kiddos (you'd be surprised at what happens).

You'll need to name the guardian as the physical guardian (we call this the "hugs and kisses" guardian) and utilize a custodial arrangement (trust, etc) for the funds for the benefit of the kiddos.

As an FYI, all of my clients with kids have trusts established for their benefits within their wills.

This is what we did!
 
OK regarding the living trusts... it really depends on the state you are in as to whether it is a good thing to do or not. In my state, I don't believe they are worth it unless you fall into a couple of very specific categories. However, people will scare you with the "horrors of probate" tactics to try to get you to buy into the scam. In my state, probate is no big deal. Additionally, like the previous poster said, everything HAS to be in the trust. So you buy something new, it has to be in the trust. If it's not in the trust, then it goes to probate anyway and you deal with the probate first and then deal with the trust after that. And, if you have a living trust then you still have to have a will -- a pour over will which will pour everything over into the trust in case something is not in the trust when you die. And if you end up with something not in the living trust (meaning you have to probate), and you don't have a will, then you get to do a heirship determination (to determine your heirs). It can be a giant mess.

Now, personally, I would set up a testamentary trust for my kids with the guardian being the trustee of that trust. I really would not want to leave the money to the guardian outright because it is technically their money then and it does not have to be used for the kids --- they can use it for whatever they want. However, if it's in a trust, then they have some fiduciary duties, etc., to hold them accountable that the money is being used for the kids.

All this being said.. you REALLY need to see an attorney. This is really important stuff that you're dealing with. Attorneys make A LOT more money when people do their wills, etc., online because, when it comes time to probate, the online forms typically have lots of drafting issues since every state is different. But, that's just my two cents.

Edit: Just read the last responses... I agree w/ Flordiagirl.
 
It can really complicate your life. Unless you are worth a few million dollars, you are just better off with wills. And it is a lot easier to change the terms of a will than the terms of a Trust.

Mike (CPA Retired)

Suze Orman would adamantly dispute this statement.
 
Definitely see a competent estate planning attorney who will get the facts regarding YOUR situation and discuss with you the alternatives for achieving YOUR goals. Software cannot react to recent changes in the law and may not be correct for your state of domicile. If you go with do-it-yourself and make a mistake that causes problems when one or both of you are dead, it will of course be too late. A consultation with an attorney who will then draft all the documents you need and advise you in titling of all assets is the only way to go.

Once you have your first set of documents, make sure they are updated as circumstances or laws change. If you relocate to another state, you may need new documents.
 
Thanks so much for the information! I will call an estate attorney on Monday and see what we do. I appreciate the input!
 
As an estate planning attorney, I echo the statements made --please, please consult with an estate planning attorney before doing anything. Every situation is different, but you definitely don't need to be worth millions to get the benefits of a trust. There are also numerous different types of trusts which may or may not work for your situation. Many attorneys offer free or low cost consultations, as well.

Also, the idea that a trust "avoids probate" can be a bit misleading. For example, in Florida, assets held in trust are accessible to creditors of the decedent for 2 years following death. Thus, the only way for beneficiaries to be paid from the trust would be to either a) wait 2 years or b) file a probate (typically, we would advise a client to keep something, such as a small bank account, out of trust, specifically for this purpose). Again, an estate planning attorney can go over that with you in more detail.
 
I used to work for an attorney that did estate planning. Please don't use a DIY kit for a trust (or any kind of estate planning documents). Laws vary from state to state and there are lots of questions that a good estate planning attorney will ask you when preparing your documents that you (or your software) may never have thought about. This is not an area where you want to be cheap. I've seen several large messes where people used a DIY kit and things didn't turn out the way they had originally planned. Please go see an attorney in your area.
 
The guardian should never be listed individually as a beneficiary - it will become their money and no guarantee they will use it for the kiddos (you'd be surprised at what happens).

You'll need to name the guardian as the physical guardian (we call this the "hugs and kisses" guardian) and utilize a custodial arrangement (trust, etc) for the funds for the benefit of the kiddos.

You should consult an estate planning attorney who can help you make sure that everything is titled correctly and can determine whether you need a pour over will, living trust, etc. and who can make sure the funds get to the kids properly.

As an FYI, all of my clients with kids have trusts established for their benefits within their wills (I practice in NY and FL).


I thought about this for about 5 seconds, but came to the conclusion that if I trust someone enough to raise my kids then I certainly trust them enough with my money. Think about it - if someone left you their kids, would you want to go talk to someone else everytime the kids needed shoes, an allowance... what if you needed to add a bedroom to your home? There are alot of costs associated with kids. Extra groceries, going on vacation, etc... I wanted the person taking my kids to be comfortable financially.

Think of too, what if you were the person chosen to be the "financial guardian"? I'd feel uncomfortable in that role. Would I deny requests by the caregiver? I'm good enough to care for your money but not your kids? Will the kids resent me if I say "no" to the caregiver requests?
 
I thought about this for about 5 seconds, but came to the conclusion that if I trust someone enough to raise my kids then I certainly trust them enough with my money. Think about it - if someone left you their kids, would you want to go talk to someone else everytime the kids needed shoes, an allowance... what if you needed to add a bedroom to your home? There are alot of costs associated with kids. Extra groceries, going on vacation, etc... I wanted the person taking my kids to be comfortable financially.

Think of too, what if you were the person chosen to be the "financial guardian"? I'd feel uncomfortable in that role. Would I deny requests by the caregiver? I'm good enough to care for your money but not your kids? Will the kids resent me if I say "no" to the caregiver requests?

It's called checks and balances. You have no idea what circumstances will change and how ppl change, especially with money. If you want to protect your kids financial future the you do what is best for them. If there is alot of moeny involved having a separate person, who is financially savvy and can invest it wisely is a win win for your kids. The person the is their guardian should love them enough to understand that.

There are too many horror stories out there about what happens to loving families when someone dies!
 
Since you have kids you may want to talk to a lawyer about several things. We did several different documents as one package several years ago, not sure what the legal name of each is but this is what they do:
--Legal guardianship/custody for the children in case DH and I are both incapacitated or deceased. I do not want my children becoming a guardian of the state and family members fighting each other for them!
--Financial arrangements. If DH and I are both incapacitated who makes sure the bills are paid, until I or we are recovered. If deceased who governs the $ for the children until they are of age to inherit everything. They get half at 21 yrs of age and the rest at 24 yrs of age. Between savings, life insurance, 401Ks and house, which should bring in a tidy sum, there will be plenty to pay their expenses, college-including living expenses, weddings, downpayment on a first house, first car, etc.
--Will which puts everything to each other first and then to the children
--Medical power of attorney. DH makes all decisions for me, I make all decision for him UNLESS DH cannot or will not make the decision it becomes my sister's responsibility to decide when to "pull the plug" for me. I explained to my Mother that a parent should not have to make that decision (my cousin had to with his 8 year old daughter about 10 years ago and I still get the shakes when I think about it). DH chose brother if I cannot or will not make the decision.
We did not do a "living will" per se b/c of the medical power of attorney.

These documents are filed with the court and we have a legal copy in our safe.
I am a little ticked though, and would love some advice. The lawyer convinced us to use "checks and balances" by putting DHs father on the financial arrangements for the kids as a second person with my Mother. My Mother gets the kids. I discovered this as we were signing and DH, who had never considered this fought like a tiger to leave him in. So regrettably I signed it like that. For the record-His father is a horse's pa-toot when it comes to money and has become increasingly worse in the last few years (he thinks he is a lot more clever than he really is AND he is tightfisted in the wrong places and cavalier with $ in the wrong places). Even DH fully agrees now that it was a huge mistake b/c my Mother will end up in court fighting him to use the money for necessary expenses for the kids, like college and a car if they need it to get to work, etc; of course this is all only if everything horrible came to pass and she ended up with the children anyway, but still that is why we went to the trouble to make the documents in the first place! Mom would most likely end up paying out of pocket for all of their living expenses, music lessons,and their college while the $ saved by us for that purpose sat there or worse were "invested" by FIL, who will not contribute a penny to their education or any of the rest of it himself! Since this has been weighing on our minds we need to get back in to a new lawyer who listens, pay more money, and get that part changed. Unless of course, some wise Dis person knows how to do that without all the expense and hassle? I also put all this drama piece in for OP who may want to give serious consideration into who manages the $ for the children. Checks and balances in our case were not a good idea!
 
Since you have kids you may want to talk to a lawyer about several things. We did several different documents as one package several years ago, not sure what the legal name of each is but this is what they do:
--Legal guardianship/custody for the children in case DH and I are both incapacitated or deceased. I do not want my children becoming a guardian of the state and family members fighting each other for them!
--Financial arrangements. If DH and I are both incapacitated who makes sure the bills are paid, until I or we are recovered. If deceased who governs the $ for the children until they are of age to inherit everything. They get half at 21 yrs of age and the rest at 24 yrs of age. Between savings, life insurance, 401Ks and house, which should bring in a tidy sum, there will be plenty to pay their expenses, college-including living expenses, weddings, downpayment on a first house, first car, etc.
--Will which puts everything to each other first and then to the children
--Medical power of attorney. DH makes all decisions for me, I make all decision for him UNLESS DH cannot or will not make the decision it becomes my sister's responsibility to decide when to "pull the plug" for me. I explained to my Mother that a parent should not have to make that decision (my cousin had to with his 8 year old daughter about 10 years ago and I still get the shakes when I think about it). DH chose brother if I cannot or will not make the decision.
We did not do a "living will" per se b/c of the medical power of attorney.

These documents are filed with the court and we have a legal copy in our safe.
I am a little ticked though, and would love some advice. The lawyer convinced us to use "checks and balances" by putting DHs father on the financial arrangements for the kids as a second person with my Mother. My Mother gets the kids. I discovered this as we were signing and DH, who had never considered this fought like a tiger to leave him in. So regrettably I signed it like that. For the record-His father is a horse's pa-toot when it comes to money and has become increasingly worse in the last few years (he thinks he is a lot more clever than he really is AND he is tightfisted in the wrong places and cavalier with $ in the wrong places). Even DH fully agrees now that it was a huge mistake b/c my Mother will end up in court fighting him to use the money for necessary expenses for the kids, like college and a car if they need it to get to work, etc; of course this is all only if everything horrible came to pass and she ended up with the children anyway, but still that is why we went to the trouble to make the documents in the first place! Mom would most likely end up paying out of pocket for all of their living expenses, music lessons,and their college while the $ saved by us for that purpose sat there or worse were "invested" by FIL, who will not contribute a penny to their education or any of the rest of it himself! Since this has been weighing on our minds we need to get back in to a new lawyer who listens, pay more money, and get that part changed. Unless of course, some wise Dis person knows how to do that without all the expense and hassle? I also put all this drama piece in for OP who may want to give serious consideration into who manages the $ for the children. Checks and balances in our case were not a good idea!

Checks and balances can be a good idea but reviewing the circumstances and updating the choices as people age or circumstances change are also important. It may be possible to update existing wills using codicils. Another lawyer can prepare the codicil (document amending the original will) -- you do not have to go back to the same attorney who drafted a will. If substantial changes are to be made, a new attorney may recommend new documents.

Couples need to agree on choices before signing. If the attorney does not properly represent your wishes and cannot give convincing argument for why something you want is not the way to go, don't sign. The attorney does not know the personalities involved and therefore cannot make wise choices of guardians for you.

It is important that guardians of the person of the children and guardians of the property be people who will genuinely have the best interests of the children at heart but also be capable of handlng these responsibilities. It can be hard to look at these choices objectively when one's parents are concerned. The age and health of the designees must be considered as well.
 
I thought about this for about 5 seconds, but came to the conclusion that if I trust someone enough to raise my kids then I certainly trust them enough with my money. Think about it - if someone left you their kids, would you want to go talk to someone else everytime the kids needed shoes, an allowance... what if you needed to add a bedroom to your home? There are alot of costs associated with kids. Extra groceries, going on vacation, etc... I wanted the person taking my kids to be comfortable financially.

In our case, my parents were listed as having physical custody of our daughter, and everything was left to them personally since they would be taking care of her. With them, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would take care of her no matter what (even to their own detriment). "Her" money would have only been spent on her with anything else being held for her (truthfully, unless it was a large expenditure, I doubt they would have even spent any of "her" money).

However, I can see though how it could become a problem with someone else. People can be funny about money. Some of the things I've seen after deaths when families have had to split things up have been surprising.
 
Checks and balances can be a good idea but reviewing the circumstances and updating the choices as people age or circumstances change are also important. It may be possible to update existing wills using codicils. Another lawyer can prepare the codicil (document amending the original will) -- you do not have to go back to the same attorney who drafted a will. If substantial changes are to be made, a new attorney may recommend new documents.

Couples need to agree on choices before signing. If the attorney does not properly represent your wishes and cannot give convincing argument for why something you want is not the way to go, don't sign. The attorney does not know the personalities involved and therefore cannot make wise choices of guardians for you.

It is important that guardians of the person of the children and guardians of the property be people who will genuinely have the best interests of the children at heart but also be capable of handlng these responsibilities. It can be hard to look at these choices objectively when one's parents are concerned. The age and health of the designees must be considered as well.

I will look into the codicil, that would be a huge relief and savings. Thank you! :worship:
 





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