Anyone know how/if Disney monitors possible sinkholes?

[Murron]

What drives me a bit more crazy is the media -- I kept reading about the hotel by Disney -- why not the hotel by Universal, or the hotel by Sea World..

 

[erionm]

What drives me a bit more crazy is the media -- I kept reading about the hotel by Disney -- why not the hotel by Universal, or the hotel by Sea World..

Because this particular resort is just 3 miles from AKV.

 

[ccigliano]

This is just another reason why I always recommend on-site stays at Disney.

 

[lodge]

Because this particular resort is just 3 miles from AKV.

Why did this bring to mind the groundhog popping up on the golf course in Caddyshack?!?!

 

[Brandis]

The lagoon the old Odyssey restaurant at Epcot sits in actually is a sink hole. They had to drill/push (?) the foundation pillars down to the bedrock to get a stable location.

I also heard that the Horizons pavillion was located on top of a sinkhole and that was one of the reasons why they demolished it, but that might have been Disney propaganda to justify the closure. If it was the case, construction of Mission Space was probably pretty expensive due to the additional foundation reinforcement.

 

[bookwormde]

From what I have seen WDW does significant boring to detect the larger caverns before constructions. Most of caverns develop over a long timeframe (100s or 1000s of years) so while not full proof it looks like they do their due diligence.

 

[RJP77]

I wonder why the state/county doesn't mandate regular exploritory boring every 5 years or so under a property to test for sinkholes. Not being an expert on the process, I would expect they could use a small enough drill so that the process could be unobtrusive to the foundations. And I assume the local government could use it as a money making opportunity as it gives them an opportunity to charge a fee for some sort of associated permit.

If boring isn't an option, I wonder if x-rays are a possibility. In large skyscrappers they regularly take x-rays of each floor to ensure the concrete is not developing any weaknesses. Would it not be possible to use similar technology on the ground under strategic points of a property?

I'm sure cost effectiveness comes into play in this, but just wondering out loud here?

 

[disneynutz]

I wonder why the state/county doesn't mandate regular exploritory boring every 5 years or so under a property to test for sinkholes. Not being an expert on the process, I would expect they could use a small enough drill so that the process could be unobtrusive to the foundations. And I assume the local government could use it as a money making opportunity as it gives them an opportunity to charge a fee for some sort of associated permit.

If boring isn't an option, I wonder if x-rays are a possibility. In large skyscrappers they regularly take x-rays of each floor to ensure the concrete is not developing any weaknesses. Would it not be possible to use similar technology on the ground under strategic points of a property?

I'm sure cost effectiveness comes into play in this, but just wondering out loud here?

If they could do it they would. True sinkholes can take a long time to develop but not always. Buildings sink everyday and not just in Florida. Even when a company takes all the precautions, you are still dealing with mother nature and anything can happen.

Florida is a swap for the most part. You can dig a foot deep hole and it will fill with water. Disney spends a lot of money pumping water from the ground and putting it in canals to get rid of it.

The MK is on the second story above the utilidors and so is Kidani with the parking garage being at ground level, not under it.

Bill

 

[dianeschlicht]

There was a geologist on one of the news shows this evening and said that the vast majority of the land that Disney owns sits on a totally different vein of geologic strata than the areas that are most [affected] by sinkholes.

There ARE some sinkholes on Disney property, but they are in areas that have not been developed.

You know that the Magic Kingdom is safe, it isn't built on ground level - and they had to dig down far enough to lay foundations for the utilidors, so likely would have hit a soft spot.

The geologist said that the reason why sinkholes have been worse this year is because it has been one of wettest seasons in a very very long time - the ceiling [fill]will up with water the limestone becomes soft and gives way to any weight above.

Fascinating and scary..... all at the same time!

I too think that Disney probably did a LOT of research before building on the land. Have you noticed that Disney owns a lot of land they don't use? I wonder if those pieces are unused because they are less stable? Maybe the folks who own Bonnet Creek should be concerned, since Disney sold that property!

 

[JeanfromBNA]

I wonder why the state/county doesn't mandate regular exploritory boring every 5 years or so under a property to test for sinkholes. Not being an expert on the process, I would expect they could use a small enough drill so that the process could be unobtrusive to the foundations. And I assume the local government could use it as a money making opportunity as it gives them an opportunity to charge a fee for some sort of associated permit.

If boring isn't an option, I wonder if x-rays are a possibility. In large skyscrappers they regularly take x-rays of each floor to ensure the concrete is not developing any weaknesses. Would it not be possible to use similar technology on the ground under strategic points of a property?

I'm sure cost effectiveness comes into play in this, but just wondering out loud here?

The only way to bore under an existing structure would be some type of horizontal drilling. Horizontal drilling is a pretty big operation even when it's a relatively small hole, and there are some environmental concerns. Drilling a borehole about 12" diameter costs thousands of dollars. Sinkholes vary in size and it would be incredibly easy to miss them unless you set up a grid and did vertical test bores every two feet or so. I wouldn't know how to get a drill rig into Soarin' to do test bores.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and most municipalities that have sinkholes within their borders, including those in Florida, I would imagine, have regulations about building near, filling, or draining to sinkholes. That property seemed pretty new, so they probably followed the regulations that were in effect. They just didn't know about the sinkhole. FL DOT has a good illustration of a sinkhole. Scroll down a little: http://enews.global-5.com/FourcastArticle.aspx?AID=12614. Imagine that the top two layers are solid, which is the case when structures, highways, and theme parks are built. Ground water keeps eroding the clay layer until it dumps into the void below. The more water, the faster the erosion. Florida is particularly susceptible to sinkholes because the limestone that lies beneath most of the state is especially porous.

I don't know much about ground penetrating radar (GPR), but I don't think it's very effective beyond a certain depth. I'm pretty sure that Disney would employ it if it were effective. They don't skimp on engineering.

 

[JeanfromBNA]

I too think that Disney probably did a LOT of research before building on the land. Have you noticed that Disney owns a lot of land they don't use? I wonder if those pieces are unused because they are less stable? Maybe the folks who own Bonnet Creek should be concerned, since Disney sold that property!

Like someone else said, Florida is a swamp. That's what we used to call wetlands, which are now protected. There is also a lot of land in the floodplain, about 40% of Florida, if I remember correctly. Some of this land may be buildable, but it takes more time and more effort and more money to do it.

I'm sure that whoever bought the Bonnet Creek property did their own research.

 

[spruce]

I thought the Bonnet Creek land was sold by a guy or his heirs that refused to ever sell to WD at any price.

Ground Penetrating Radar in my experience is effective to maybe 7 feet but doesn't see everything. Performing it is due diligence. I once did a 20x20 5 foot test hole, placed various steel pipe, plastic conduit, rebar etc into the test hole at various elevations and in different directions, back filled in 2 foot lifts and compacted to 95% and the GPR did not find everything.
It's a good tool but not 100%, the technician has to be good to interpret the data, mine was a geologist and GPR is expensive.

 

[JWG]

While one of my favorite rumors, horizons was not shuttered due to a sink hole.

 

[Disneylifeforme]

Last year we stayed at Summer Bay even considered the time share there. My 8 year old son convinced us not to get it because not once in the week we where there did we pass under the Disney sign. He told us we could never get "magic" if we didn't. After hearing that we drove under the sign and bought our new "home" at AKL. Then headed to HS where the ice cream vendor gave us ice cream. Nothing compares

 

[sweetdana]

I think that it's safe to say that they don't know when or where a sinkhole will open up. If they did, they would restrict building and insurance companies would have no build areas. From 2009 to 2011 there were over 20,000 insurance claims filed in Florida due to sinkhole damage.

Bill

Disagree with this. Flood policies started only in places that would flood, and grew further to might only due to FEMA needing more funds. Many well built places are building knowing its a flood plain .