Anyone else's kids refusing state tests?

[bekkiz]

The bolded is hard to believe for me. You can easily have students who take easier courses to get higher GPAs or teachers who are lenient with their scoring resulting in higher GPAs. That doesn't mean those students are "college ready" either.

Again, standardized testing has been around for decades. There's nothing new there. It's only the pressure/stress that is put on these kids (whether by schools, parents, or themselves) surrounding these tests that's "new". Why not fight to eliminate the pressure instead of fighting to eliminate the tests?

This is the most recent and largest study

http://www.nacacnet.org/research/research-data/nacac-research/Documents/DefiningPromise.pdf

And an NPR recap of it http://www.npr.org/2014/02/18/277059528/college-applicants-sweat-the-sats-perhaps-they-shouldn-t

Your first paragraph is very interesting however, you are assuming the worst about every student and every teacher. Why would you jump to that conclusion? Why do you assume a majority of teachers would be more lenient? That seems to me to be a very pessimistic view of students and teachers. I much prefer the alternative where most teachers are fair and balanced and most students succeed because of their own hard work.

 

[pryncess527]

Again, standardized testing has been around for decades. There's nothing new there. ...Why not fight to eliminate the pressure instead of fighting to eliminate the tests?

That they have a long history of existing does not mean that they have a long history of effectiveness in measuring what a child learns. In fact, quite the opposite. Why should taxpayers continue to spend millions of dollars on tests from private companies who can provide no indication of their effectiveness at measuring teaching?

 

[Hannathy]

Why do you assume a majority of teachers would be more lenient? That seems to me to be a very pessimistic view of students and teachers. I much prefer the alternative where most teachers are fair and balanced and most students succeed because of their own hard work.

And this has been shown to work how? By students who graduate High School and can barely read? By students who are "good students" at their high schools and get to college and have to have remedial classes because they aren't at the level they should be ? With schools passing students because they come or so they won't be embarrassed to be in the grade again?

If teachers and schools had policed themselves better then there wouldn't have been the push for testing to ensure they have learned enough to graduate.

 

[sam_gordon]

This is the most recent and largest study

http://http://www.nacacnet.org/research/research-data/nacac-research/Documents/DefiningPromise.pdf

And an NPR recap of it http://www.npr.org/2014/02/18/277059528/college-applicants-sweat-the-sats-perhaps-they-shouldn-t

Your first paragraph is very interesting however, you are assuming the worst about every student and every teacher. Why would you jump to that conclusion? Why do you assume a majority of teachers would be more lenient? That seems to me to be a very pessimistic view of students and teachers. I much prefer the alternative where most teachers are fair and balanced and most students succeed because of their own hard work.

Am I assuming the worst of EVERY student and teacher? No. But I have no doubts there are students who take "easier" courses, not because they have to, but because they want to. I also have no doubts there are teachers who are guilty of grade inflation. Both groups are probably in the minority, but I don't think you can deny they're out there.

ETA: I couldn't get your first link to work.

 

[bekkiz]

And this has been shown to work how? By students who graduate High School and can barely read? By students who are "good students" at their high schools and get to college and have to have remedial classes because they aren't at the level they should be ? With schools passing students because they come or so they won't be embarrassed to be in the grade again?

If teachers and schools had policed themselves better then there wouldn't have been the push for testing to ensure they have learned enough to graduate.

I'd love to see the studies that show this to be an epidemic. But, I would also argue that public school, particularly in the older grades, has failed a population of students in the last 10-15 years by ignoring the fact that not all kids are college bound and not providing them with another career path.

I would also argue the way we approach teaching in the younger grades is completely developmentally inappropriate and creates students who are combative about reading and learning.

Both of those things I will continue to blame on administrations and school districts, not teachers.

ETA: I would also argue that the kind of skills tested on most state level standardized tests and the SAT/ACT are not the kind of literacy skills you need in college. So, if schools are preparing kids for those tests, they are also not preparing them for the kind of college level work they will need to do. See my point before about the science AP tests. So, I would not be too surprised to see kids needing some remedial help when they enter college.

 

[bekkiz]

Am I assuming the worst of EVERY student and teacher? No. But I have no doubts there are students who take "easier" courses, not because they have to, but because they want to. I also have no doubts there are teachers who are guilty of grade inflation. Both groups are probably in the minority, but I don't think you can deny they're out there.

ETA: I couldn't get your first link to work.

I had an extra http, sorry, it should work now!

 

[sam_gordon]

I had an extra http, sorry, it should work now!

Thanks. I've just started reading (don't know if I'll get through all 70 pages ) and am I understanding it correctly, they're comparing college students who DID submit standardized test scores on their application vs those who DIDN'T submit scores?

If so, that doesn't mean the test scores aren't a good indication (to me). The GPA difference between those who submitted and those who didn't was very slight. It's very possible those who didn't submit scores still scored highly (or at least comparable to those who did submit scores).

Most kids with "higher" GPAs you would expect would do better on the standardized tests, wouldn't you? But a high GPA doesn't mean the student is "college ready".

 

[bekkiz]

Thanks. I've just started reading (don't know if I'll get through all 70 pages ) and am I understanding it correctly, they're comparing college students who DID submit standardized test scores on their application vs those who DIDN'T submit scores?

If so, that doesn't mean the test scores aren't a good indication (to me). The GPA difference between those who submitted and those who didn't was very slight. It's very possible those who didn't submit scores still scored highly (or at least comparable to those who did submit scores).

Most kids with "higher" GPAs you would expect would do better on the standardized tests, wouldn't you? But a high GPA doesn't mean the student is "college ready".

Keep reading They found there was no significant difference in college GPA between those who submitted scores and those who didn't. But also:

"College and university Cumulative GPAs closely track high school GPAs, despite wide variations in testing. Students with strong HSGPAs generally perform well in college, despite modest or low testing. In contrast, students with weak HSGPAs earn lower college Cum GPAs and graduate at lower
rates, even with markedly stronger testing."

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Originally Posted by bekkiz
Study after study shows that SAT scores do not reflect achievement in college,

Well first of all, the SAT is designed to reflect achievement in high school and thus, preparedness to do college work, not necessarily success in college. Hence why they are taken before college.

Secondly, of course study after study isn't going to find a strong correlation between college grades and the SAT. That is because students are roughly sorted by SAT score prior to college rather than at college The fact this sort occurs makes the correlation seem less than it is. Were all these students redistributed randomly you'd see a much better correlation.

Put another way, Elite schools accept only a narrow swath of elite scorers on the SAT. Yet they have about the same grade distribution at other schools. So Harvard, for example, with 50 out of 50 elite scorers in a class of 50, is going to be dishing some bad grades to to some elite scorers, and a school like Tennessee with maybe 5 elite scorers in a class of 50 is going to be dishing some good grades to some non-elite scorers.

 

[bekkiz]

Well first of all, the SAT is designed to reflect achievement in high school and thus, preparedness to do college work, not necessarily success in college. Hence why they are taken before college.

Secondly, of course study after study isn't going to find a strong correlation between college grades and the SAT. That is because students are roughly sorted by SAT score prior to college rather than at college The fact this sort occurs makes the correlation seem less than it is. Were all these students redistributed randomly you'd see a much better correlation.

Put another way, Elite schools accept only a narrow swath of elite scorers on the SAT. Yet they have about the same grade distribution at other schools. So Harvard, for example, with 50 out of 50 elite scorers in a class of 50, is going to be dishing some bad grades to to some elite scorers, and a school like Tennessee with maybe 5 elite scorers in a class of 50 is going to be dishing some good grades to some non-elite scorers.

Read just the abstract of the study I posted above. It is comparing kids who don't submit testing scores with those that do, and either group preforms equally as well in college. Conversely, those kids with high SAT scores but low high school GPAs do not preform nearly as well as kids with high GPAs and low test scores.

 

[leebee]

I just took a practice test for 5th grade math in the Smarter Balance testing program. This is going to be a nightmare. I am no dummy when it comes to math; I took math through 2 semesters of college calculus and differential equations, and I have been teaching math at several different grade levels (1-8, except for 7th grade, including pre-algebra), so I think I am reasonably equipped to handle 5th grade math. These are the most awkward, difficult tests I have ever seen. To start with, your school better have a LOT of reasonably sophisticated laptops/computers. My MacBook Pro couldn't handle the audio for the ELA sections, and while it's not the newest model, it's not THAT old. The math questions all have a variety of different answer models, so sometimes you have to type in equations, sometimes figure out how to do computer graphing, sometimes you drag and click, sometimes you do a variety of different manipulations. THEN there are the questions. NONE are straightforward, and all are fairly language-intensive. Frequently you have to do several "minor" math problems to get the information you need to do the actual problem being asked. Some of the questions were just mind-boggling, and you need to be fairly astute to keep up with all the options necessary to get the correct answer. Honestly, I wanted to give up after doing about 5 of the questions, not because I couldn't do them, but because they all are pretty labor intensive before you actually get to the point of answering the question. I don't know how I did, as they don't grade you, but it took me about an hour to answer 22 questions.

I'll tell you… I worked in the 6th grade math class of the students who are now our 8th graders, and I don't think that any of them could have done well on this 5ht grade test when they were in 6th grade. If 10% of them exceed the standard now that they are 8th graders, I'll be shocked. This is a challenging, complicated test given in a challenging, complicated, confusing format. I hope the kids prove me wrong, but I'm afraid it's going to be a nightmare.

I think what annoys me the most is we are going to tie ourselves in knots for the next five years, trying to figure out how to get the kids to retain enough knowledge to be able to understand this kind of test, and then, POOF, the powers that be will decide that a different model is the "best" way to help kids learn. GRRRRRRRR…..