Anyone else's kids refusing state tests?

[Hannathy]

we can't in NC and it kind of pisses me off. I was so mad at her science teacher and her incompetence that I decided if she didn't have to take it she would not.

"Any exemptions from the annual nationally standardized testing requirement for enrollees in grades 3, 6, 9 or 11?

No. It is required of every conventional K-12 non-public school enrollee in grades 3, 6, 9 and 11. No exceptions for any reason. Conventional K-12 non-public schools are exempted from all Public Schools of North Carolina student testing requirements. See G.S. 115C-554 and 562.
A grade 12 student cannot legally be graduated from a conventional K-12 non-public school in North Carolina until he/she has achieved the school's required minimum competency score on the nationally standardized test administered the previous school year while the student was enrolled in grade 11. See G.S. 115C-550 and 558.
Also, see "North Carolina requires a specific academic competency."

I think this is the way it should be. If they are required then they are required!! how can the be required if anybody can opt out of them.

If the teacher was incompetent and the kids didn't learn the material then isn't that what this test will prove? Isn't that exactly why they are doing them? to show where there is incompetency. and to show inconsistencies? because if they all do badly on the test and yet they all have A's and B's then there is a problem with the teacher.

 

[leebee]

I think this is the way it should be. If they are required then they are required!! how can the be required if anybody can opt out of them.

If the teacher was incompetent and the kids didn't learn the material then isn't that what this test will prove? Isn't that exactly why they are doing them? to show where there is incompetency. and to show inconsistencies? because if they all do badly on the test and yet they all have A's and B's then there is a problem with the teacher.

The test won't necessarily prove teacher incompetency, because teachers are not the only influence in student grades. What about the kids who don't care how they do in school, so they don't bother to pay attention or try? What can you do about the kids who don't live in a home where they get enough sleep, or enough food, or have a stable enough environment for them to be able to learn in school? Why are we using a "one size fits all" test for kids who we KNOW learn differently or are NOT at grade level, and never will be? And then there's the parents. How many parents think it's no big deal to pull kids out of school for vacations? How many parents balk at homework, because "home time is family time?" You might be surprised (or, sadly, maybe not) at how many parents have no respect for the concept of education and learning. There's lots of pressure on teachers to make sure kids have good grades, regardless of whether learning occurs. I've seen too many teachers who give the kids a "study guide" that they fill out, go over in class to ensure that everyone has the correct answers, then take home to study. The test is then an exact replica of the study guide the kids have been memorizing all week. Parents like this, because grades are good… and if they aren't, Suzy can have a re-do and earn up to a 75% as a grade on the test she flunked. This isn't teacher incompetency; it's grade inflation because teachers are responsible for making sure that all kids exceed, meet, or partially meet the grade expectations. But, you know, we don't flunk kids or retain them because it's bad for their self-esteem.

 

[sam_gordon]

The test won't necessarily prove teacher incompetency, because teachers are not the only influence in student grades. What about the kids who don't care how they do in school, so they don't bother to pay attention or try? What can you do about the kids who don't live in a home where they get enough sleep, or enough food, or have a stable enough environment for them to be able to learn in school? Why are we using a "one size fits all" test for kids who we KNOW learn differently or are NOT at grade level, and never will be? And then there's the parents. How many parents think it's no big deal to pull kids out of school for vacations? How many parents balk at homework, because "home time is family time?" You might be surprised (or, sadly, maybe not) at how many parents have no respect for the concept of education and learning. There's lots of pressure on teachers to make sure kids have good grades, regardless of whether learning occurs. I've seen too many teachers who give the kids a "study guide" that they fill out, go over in class to ensure that everyone has the correct answers, then take home to study. The test is then an exact replica of the study guide the kids have been memorizing all week. Parents like this, because grades are good… and if they aren't, Suzy can have a re-do and earn up to a 75% as a grade on the test she flunked. This isn't teacher incompetency; it's grade inflation because teachers are responsible for making sure that all kids exceed, meet, or partially meet the grade expectations. But, you know, we don't flunk kids or retain them because it's bad for their self-esteem.

Do the teachers have access to the standardized tests to provide a study guide the kids can memorize? I'm not asking to be snarky, just curious.

 

[Hannathy]

The test won't necessarily prove teacher incompetency, because teachers are not the only influence in student grades. What about the kids who don't care how they do in school, so they don't bother to pay attention or try? What can you do about the kids who don't live in a home where they get enough sleep, or enough food, or have a stable enough environment for them to be able to learn in school? Why are we using a "one size fits all" test for kids who we KNOW learn differently or are NOT at grade level, and never will be? And then there's the parents. How many parents think it's no big deal to pull kids out of school for vacations? How many parents balk at homework, because "home time is family time?" You might be surprised (or, sadly, maybe not) at how many parents have no respect for the concept of education and learning. There's lots of pressure on teachers to make sure kids have good grades, regardless of whether learning occurs. I've seen too many teachers who give the kids a "study guide" that they fill out, go over in class to ensure that everyone has the correct answers, then take home to study. The test is then an exact replica of the study guide the kids have been memorizing all week. Parents like this, because grades are good… and if they aren't, Suzy can have a re-do and earn up to a 75% as a grade on the test she flunked. This isn't teacher incompetency; it's grade inflation because teachers are responsible for making sure that all kids exceed, meet, or partially meet the grade expectations. But, you know, we don't flunk kids or retain them because it's bad for their self-esteem.

And that is a big part of the problem , if a child isn't at a certain level to be in a grade they shouldn't be in the grade. So if it is reading at grade level or at a certain grade then that is what you have to be at or you don't go forward. Period.

If it is a state wide changing test then teachers couldn't give the students the answers because they wouldn't know them.

Perhaps if parents knew their child wouldn't be promoted if they didn't pass the test then they wouldn't pull them out for vacation in the middle of the year. When schools held students to the material when I was a kid it was very rare for someone to go on vacation during the year.

Teachers are supposed to be professionals with integrity if they are selling out to parents and giving grades kids don't deserve just to please the parents then shame on them and having to pass a standard test will show that.

 

[leebee]

Do the teachers have access to the standardized tests to provide a study guide the kids can memorize? I'm not asking to be snarky, just curious.

No… with qualifications. The study guides I was referring to are those I've seen in some of the middle school social studies and science classrooms; the teachers create these so the kids can do reasonably well on the chapter tests. HOWEVER… some standardized testing programs (NECAP, for example) make "released" materials available to use for test prep. These are copies of questions used in previous years' tests, which theoretically won't be on this year's test. These are actual test questions, the idea being that the kids can learn the format of the testing program, so they will be comfortable with the test when they get it. We get these packets about a month before the actual test dates, so that teachers can teach the kids how to do the problems contained within. They release math questions, topics for writing, and reading comprehension paragraphs w/questions.

 

[sam_gordon]

No… with qualifications. The study guides I was referring to are those I've seen in some of the middle school social studies and science classrooms; the teachers create these so the kids can do reasonably well on the chapter tests. HOWEVER… some standardized testing programs (NECAP, for example) make "released" materials available to use for test prep. These are copies of questions used in previous years' tests, which theoretically won't be on this year's test. These are actual test questions, the idea being that the kids can learn the format of the testing program, so they will be comfortable with the test when they get it. We get these packets about a month before the actual test dates, so that teachers can teach the kids how to do the problems contained within. They release math questions, topics for writing, and reading comprehension paragraphs w/questions.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I don't see what the problem is with what you mentioned. Having a guideline (and that's all it should be) of how the questions are formatted or showing examples of what type of questions are asked I don't see a problem with. Of course, like many things, it can be taken too far. If that's the case, that's a different problem that's the fault of the teachers, not the tests.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Strange since our kids are required to have a 21 or higher on the ACT as part of graduation requirements. Just don't see the issue with taking the tests.

The ACT? As in one of the two tests you take for entering college? Seriously? That's ridiculous.

 

[Hannathy]

The ACT? As in one of the two tests you take for entering college? Seriously? That's ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? I think it is a good idea. It is an established, researched test of general knowledge that should have been attained in High school. So why not use it? Why re-invent the wheel? Save money also not developing a new test.

And they aren't asking for a very high score.

 

[Poohforyou]

The ACT? As in one of the two tests you take for entering ucollege? Seriously? That's ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? The ACT is a standardized test for high school achievement and college admission. Seems pretty appropriate as a graduation requirement.

 

[Southernmiss]

Why is that ridiculous? I think it is a good idea. It is an established, researched test of general knowledge that should have been attained in High school. So why not use it? Why re-invent the wheel? Save money also not developing a new test.

And they aren't asking for a very high score.

Agreed. Our state is talking about using the ACT as a graduation exam. I think it's fair.

Many kids I know score well on the ACT long before senior year.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Why is it ridiculous? The ACT is a standardized test for high school achievement and college admission. Seems pretty appropriate as a graduation requirement.

Because not every child is college material. Requiring a test that measures college readiness on 100% of graduates in a high school is pointless. Just because a child doesn't get a 21 or higher doesn't mean that child doesn't qualify as a high school graduate. Especially when the national average in 2013 was 20.9.

 

[tvguy]

It's not the same test... Kids in ny still take the SAT in high school and the grades are very important... These tests are just to grade the school and teachers... But the schools put huge pressure on the kids cause it reflects the district rating.

And in the past 10 years some colleges no longer require the SAT and ACT.

My kids were in private school and the mindset was sooo different there, especially in the for profit private schools that used their test results as marketing tools. No big cramming sessions, any test specific learning was including through the year as part of the normal curriculum. All they asked was that the students make sure to get plenty of sleep and eat a good breakfast the week.

 

[Hannathy]

Because not every child is college material. Requiring a test that measures college readiness on 100% of graduates in a high school is pointless. Just because a child doesn't get a 21 or higher doesn't mean that child doesn't qualify as a high school graduate. Especially when the national average in 2013 was 20.9.

I agree not every child is college material. But it isn't testing college material, it is testing general knowledge in the areas a child is supposed to have covered in high school. A high school diploma is supposed to be evidence that you learned general knowledge in these areas. People should be able to know that any one with a HS diploma has learned these facts. So why would a child not getting 21 showing just a bare minimum competency in academic learning deserve a High School diploma. It is to be earned by learning something ,not just by going.

You can't get a GED without taking a test and showing you know things, so why not for a diploma.

And just because our schools are passing and graduating children without a basic competency in academic ares doesn't mean we should embrace it and lower the standards. Those schools that graduate them should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[leebee]

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I don't see what the problem is with what you mentioned. Having a guideline (and that's all it should be) of how the questions are formatted or showing examples of what type of questions are asked I don't see a problem with. Of course, like many things, it can be taken too far. If that's the case, that's a different problem that's the fault of the teachers, not the tests.

Originally I was answering a question from a PP about study guides used in some middle school classrooms, which segued into talking about released items for standardized test prep. My problem with this is that we spend our time teaching kids how to "work" a very few very specific problems, or practicing how to pick things out of a paragraph. I would feel lots better about test prep if we reinforced basic skills that are applicable across the subject matter rather than simply showing a kid how to answer a specific question.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

You can't get a GED without taking a test and showing you know things, so why not for a diploma.

I'm not arguing against the use of a test, just questioning the use of a test specifically designed to not only measure high school knowledge but the ability to do college level work.

I'd like to understand who came up with 21 as the acceptable score for high school graduates (in the post I originally quoted), and for that matter how the ACT matches up with state education standards. Say what you will about common core, but at least then there'd be one test that everyone would take that would be used to measure the standards that everyone is expected to reach.

 

[WorldWacky]

Originally I was answering a question from a PP about study guides used in some middle school classrooms, which segued into talking about released items for standardized test prep. My problem with this is that we spend our time teaching kids how to "work" a very few very specific problems, or practicing how to pick things out of a paragraph. I would feel lots better about test prep if we reinforced basic skills that are applicable across the subject matter rather than simply showing a kid how to answer a specific question.

I agree, whole-heartedly.

 

[Unas]

Strange since our kids are required to have a 21 or higher on the ACT as part of graduation requirements. Just don't see the issue with taking the tests.

Heck, 21 is above average . . . It's 55th percentile. Where do you live? Lake Wobegone?

I agree not every child is college material. But it isn't testing college material, it is testing general knowledge in the areas a child is supposed to have covered in high school. A high school diploma is supposed to be evidence that you learned general knowledge in these areas. People should be able to know that any one with a HS diploma has learned these facts. So why would a child not getting 21 showing just a bare minimum competency in academic learning deserve a High School diploma. It is to be earned by learning something ,not just by going.

You can't get a GED without taking a test and showing you know things, so why not for a diploma.

And just because our schools are passing and graduating children without a basic competency in academic ares doesn't mean we should embrace it and lower the standards. Those schools that graduate them should be ashamed of themselves.

Do you realize that more and more colleges and universities are making submission of standardized test scores optional and more and more kids are not submitting them? Studies of the performance of kids at these these schools show no significant performance difference between those kids who submitted the test score and those who did not.

Then there is this

SAT, more than anything else, shows how well you take the SAT. It is NOT a measure of a student's raw math or verbal ability. The College Board itself does not claim that the SAT predicts subject skills...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/13/AR2009091302546.html

Test-Taking Skills
While the ACT purports to measure achievement, it also measures test-taking skills, which are a major component of college success. Students who can test well often get higher grades, particularly on multiple choice tests. Conversely, test-taking is only one portion of college achievement. Regular class attendance and participation, critical thinking skills, time management and other factors can also affect college performance. The ACT can't measure these skills and therefore a student's ACT score can end up either underestimating or overestimating her potential college performance.
Test Flaws
The ACT can't fully measure a student's aptitude or achievement. Cultural bias is a problem with most standardized tests, and the ACT is no exception. Students from different cultural backgrounds might understand test questions differently and be unfamiliar with colloquial phrases or even household objects used in word problems. Stereotype threat can also play a role in test performance. Minority students, such as women and students of color, tend to score lower when they are reminded of negative stereotypes about their group. Simply checking a box indicating race and gender can serve as a reminder of these stereotypes, and the ACT requests this demographic information.

 

[bekkiz]

I was a teacher, I earned my MA in Education from one of the top graduate schools in Education and I have extensive experience with the research behind assessments and testing.

Here's a question for those of you who think standardized tests are appropriate. Why are the top private high schools across the country dropping their AP programs, particularly in the sciences? 2 main reasons

1) It is virtually impossible to write a good assessment that can be graded on a large scale. Standardized tests, by and large, are inconclusive about actual knowledge.

2) An AP test that is primarily multiple choice requires a lot of studying to pass. A lot of rote memorization. What gets left out of the AP courses then is instilling a love of the discipline and the tools to actually be a scientists or historian etc.

So, instead of asking kids to listen to months of lectures, buy multiple study guides and cram for weeks before the tests, these very expensive schools are focusing on hands on, experiential learning. And they're finding their kids are better prepared for the sciences in college and in fact are MORE likely to go into the sciences.

We're talking about the cream of the crop kids at the cream of the crop schools, and even they cannot be assessed properly on a standardized test. Even they miss out on important classroom experiences to grow as learners.

Study after study shows that SAT scores do not reflect achievement in college, but GPA does. What that tells me is that the teachers are in fact the best assessor of their students. However, teachers are not trusted to do their job and are undercut in their classroom curriculum. Districts spend untold amounts of money on unproven assessments every few years, yet can't manage their class sizes. Frankly, it's borderline abusive to subject kids under 9 to the kinds of tests that are being given. It honestly makes me ill to think of it.

 

[teller80]

our kids are required to have a 21 or higher on the ACT as part of graduation requirements. Just don't see the issue with taking the tests.

Heck, 21 is above average . . . It's 55th percentile. [/url]

familyoffive - since 21 is the 55th percentile, mathematically it follows that 45% of kids in your state do not graduate. What happens to them?

 

[sam_gordon]

Study after study shows that SAT scores do not reflect achievement in college, but GPA does. What that tells me is that the teachers are in fact the best assessor of their students. However, teachers are not trusted to do their job and are undercut in their classroom curriculum. Districts spend untold amounts of money on unproven assessments every few years, yet can't manage their class sizes. Frankly, it's borderline abusive to subject kids under 9 to the kinds of tests that are being given. It honestly makes me ill to think of it.

The bolded is hard to believe for me. You can easily have students who take easier courses to get higher GPAs or teachers who are lenient with their scoring resulting in higher GPAs. That doesn't mean those students are "college ready" either.

Again, standardized testing has been around for decades. There's nothing new there. It's only the pressure/stress that is put on these kids (whether by schools, parents, or themselves) surrounding these tests that's "new". Why not fight to eliminate the pressure instead of fighting to eliminate the tests?