Anyone else want to put on a flame...

[Pete's Mom]

So help me out here. The Dave Matthews Band, Pearl Jam, R.E.M., the Dixie Chicks, Jurassic 5, James Taylor, Jackson Browne, and Bruce Springsteen have a right to voice their opinion about President Bush, but we should be appalled at what vets who served with Senator Kerry have to say?

 

[Galahad]

Originally posted by Pete's Mom
So help me out here. The Dave Matthews Band, Pearl Jam, R.E.M., the Dixie Chicks, Jurassic 5, James Taylor, Jackson Browne, and Bruce Springsteen have a right to voice their opinion about President Bush, but we should be appalled at what vets who served with Senator Kerry have to say?

Or......it's OK to demand that the President prove he wasn't "awol" in Alabama but we can't demand that Kerry prove he didn't shoot someone in the back in Vietnam? A double negative is a double negative, afterall.

Personally I'm tired of this one from all angles. I don't care what either one of these guys did during Vietnam.

 

[peachgirl]

Wow, so the GOP has found an answer to George Soros.

You're giving the GOP more credit than I am. Even I don't think they're particularly involved in this little money making scheme.

They've disavowed any affiliation and I take them at their word....for now.

That's one out of at least 12 Vietnam vets quoted in the book.

So, we can agree that one of the key figures in this scam is a liar? None of the rest of these people was even involved in the incident. These guys are out to make a buck and nothing more, other than they didn't like Kerry's anti-war activities when he returned home. Republicans who keep harping on this are desperate to find something to pin on Kerry and nothing more.

Want to discuss Bush's military service????

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by peachgirl
So, we can agree that one of the key figures in this scam is a liar? None of the rest of these people was even involved in the incident. These guys are out to make a buck and nothing more, other than they didn't like Kerry's anti-war activities when he returned home. Republicans who keep harping on this are desperate to find something to pin on Kerry and nothing more.

I'll grant you that Elliott is either a liar or one very confused & easily persuadable person. Either way, it doesn't eliminate the serious questions about Sen. Kerry's service, something he is using as a major basis for being elected President.

As for your assertion that these people did not serve with Sen. Kerry, it's notable in this

Want to discuss Bush's military service???? [/B][/QUOTE] link that a number of them are shown as part of Kerry's "Band of Brothers". Some of the men who speak on the SwiftBoat TV ad are shown in this picture. Some of these men served WITH Sen. Kerry in Vietnam.

As for making a buck, what's wrong with that? That's what America's free enterprise system is all about. I suppose you think it's OK if one side makes money, but not the other?

As for not liking Sen. Kerry's anti-war activities after Vietnam, these men have EARNED the right. Many of these men spent much longer in Vietnam than Sen. Kerry did. They continued to risk their lives while Sen. Kerry headed home to protest and tell lies about what went on.

Oh, I suppose we are supposed to only listen to the Vietnam vets that SUPPORT the Senator and discount those who do not?

Sen. Kerry brought this issue up repeatedly and now he's getting the full spotlight treatment. The good, the bad and the ugly will come to light. There is no desperation here. Only a complete analysis of history. Sen. Kerry has provided HIS version and now we will get another version.

Then it will be up to the voters to decide who is telling the truth.

 

[caitycaity]

I don't care what either one of these guys did during Vietnam.

 

[Eeyore1954]

BOSTON GLOBE journalist Mike Kranish has been commissioned to write the foreword of the official Kerry-Edwards campaign book -- just as he is covering the campaign in an official capacity as a journalist for the BOSTON GLOBE!

Kranish made waves on Friday by reporting in the GLOBE how a key figure in the anti-Kerry vet ad campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, "backed off one of the key contentions."

But Captain George Elliott claims the Kranish article is "extremely inaccurate" and highly misstated his actual views.

And there's more...

The following statement from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth concerns an article appearing in morning edition of the BOSTON GLOBE, written by GLOBE reporter and author of the official Kerry-Edwards campaign book, Mike Kranish.

"Captain George Elliott describes an article appearing in today’s edition of the BOSTON GLOBE by Mike Kranish as extremely inaccurate and highly misstating his actual views. He reaffirms his statement in the current advertisement paid for by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Captain Elliott reaffirms his affidavit in support of that advertisement, and he reaffirms his request that the ad be played.

“Additional documentation will follow.

"The article by Mr. Kranish is particularly surprising given page 102 of Mr. Kranish’s own book quoting John Kerry as acknowledging that he killed a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong soldier whom he was afraid would turn around.

"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has more than 250 supporters who are revealing first hand, eyewitness accounts of numerous incidents concerning John Kerry’s military service record. The organization will continue to discuss much of what John Kerry has reported as fact concerning his four-month tour of duty in Vietnam."

 

[Lanshark]

I would guess there are some pretty powerful people on both sides of this ad. One side pressuring the Vets to say he's unfit and the other pressuring these Vets to shut up or get sued.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Doug123
O'Reilly has no common sense (even when he's right - which is extremely rare). It constantly amazes me the number of people on the DIS that treat him as a news source. But I guess that's really off the point.

He is very obnoxious and bossy, and pretty much usually says the opposite of everything I think. Maybe we could kind of call him "Rush-lite".

I guess he felt that this campaign was dangerous because people would blame Bush for it, and it would end up reflecting negatively on Bush?

Of course I'm immune to all of the propoganda. I'm definitely in the anyone but Bush category, and proud of it!

 

[BrinxFam]

I have not posted on any of the political threads until now. I do not like debating but appreciate the opportunity to voice my opinion on this matter. I realize that my opinion will probably be seen as completely wrong but here it is anyway.

I take great offense to people saying they don't care what either of the candidates did while in Vietnam because my father is a Vietnam Veteran who to this day is not only haunted by the war mentally but also emotionally and physically. My father is a good man who was put in many undesirable situations while serving in Vietnam. This country, both everyday citizens and it's government, have yet to fully appreciate what a true Vietnam Vetran went through. For John Kerry to try to make experiences of Vietnam into a Cinderella story and waltz into the Whitehouse as a "Decorated War Hero" is a slap in the face to the men and women who returned to be spit upon and referred to as baby killers while John Kerry returned to protest the war. His actions have been and continue to be a slap in the face and a knife in the back to Vietnam Veterans like my father.

It will be a cold day in the eternal lake of fire before my family or I ever vote for John Kerry for anything.

Again, this is my opinion and will not change any opinions here just as nothing will change my opinion but thank you for the opportunity to voice how I feel.

 

[Eeyore1954]

BrinxFam, I understand and appreciate your opinion. I know of others who feel the same way.

However, in Sen. Kerry's defense (like he needs or wants my help ), he did serve in Vietnam and thus earned the right to express his opinions about the war when he came home. I struggle NOT to fault him for his anti-war activism, trying to accept that the right of free speech applies equally to everyone, especially to those with whom I disagree.

I do, however, agree with your assessment of Sen. Kerry's attempts to leverage his status as a decorated war veteran to propel him into the WH. There are too many questions about his actions in Vietnam and about what he actually did to acquire those medals. I believe we need to hear from both sides of the veterans from that war: those who support and those who do not support Sen. Kerry. I've already ordered a copy of "Unfit for Command" ... it should be a very interesting read. I believe both sides have more than earned the right to speak on this issue. It would be in the country's best interest to listen carefully to the whole message -- the good, the bad and the ugly.

 

[Galahad]

I've already ordered a copy of "Unfit for Command"

For those that insist that all of America should see Fahrenheit 9/11....should all of America also read what these vets have to say?

 

[Pin Wizard]

I agree with you, BrinxFam! Bless your dad!! There is no "however" in my book.

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
However, in Sen. Kerry's defense (like he needs or wants my help ), he did serve in Vietnam and thus earned the right to express his opinions about the war when he came home. I struggle NOT to fault him for his anti-war activism, trying to accept that the right of free speech applies equally to everyone, especially to those with whom I disagree.

This is just one thing that does not put him on my good side...

"John Kerry's service in Vietnam lasted 4 months and 12 days, beginning in November 1968 when he reported to Cam Ranh Bay for a month of training. His abbreviated combat tour ended shortly after he requested a transfer out of Vietnam on March 17, 1969, citing Navy instruction 1300.39 permitting personnel with three Purple Hearts to request reassignment. So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed."


..."John Kerry has long insisted that using the three-injury loophole to leave combat early was his own idea, but Kerry's fellow Swift officer Thomas Wright, who served on occasion as the OIC (Officer in Charge) of Kerry's boat group, contradicts that claim. Wright reports that he "had a lot of trouble getting Kerry to follow orders," and that those who worked with Kerry found him "oriented towards his personal, rather than unit goals and objectives." He therefore requested that Kerry be removed from his boat group. After John Kerry qualified for his third Purple Heart, Thomas Wright and two fellow officers informed him of the obscure regulation, and told him to go home. Wright concluded, 'We knew how the system worked and we didn’t want him in Coastal Division 11.'"


http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam

Three purple hearts or not, I think he (and anyone else) should stick with the tour of duty for one complete year, provided it was actually his doing.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Pin Wizard, I do agree with you on your last point... Sen. Kerry should have completed his entire tour of duty. According to the rules, he didn't have to, but he could have done it to demonstrate leadership and commitment.

Having said that, he did go to Vietnam and was there for four months. While that's not a complete tour of duty, it doesn't negate his right to speak out about that war when he returned. I may not agree with what he said and did, but he did have the right to say and do it.

 

[minniecarousel]

The mud-slinging commences.

 

[Pin Wizard]

Originally posted by minniecarousel
The mud-slinging commences.

LOL!

 

[Saffron]

For those of you questioning Kerry's service to this country, go to Find Law to read his actual military records. Compare for yourself, so you can make an informed decision about who is telling a lie and who isn't. Find Law is a web site where you can find all kinds of information on just about any law, document, legal writ, etc and find actual documents themselves.

ALL of Kerry's records that are availabe to the public:

Military Records of Lieutenant (Junior Grade) John F. Kerry for U.S. Navy Military Service During The Vietnam War, 1968 - 1969 Note: Kerry was promoted to (Full) Lieutenant on Jan. 1, 1970 prior to requesting a discharge

Purple Heart Awards (3) (PDF) For wounds received in action on Dec. 2, 1968, Feb. 20, 1969, and Mar. 17, 1969

Silver Star (PDF) For displaying "courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism" while acting as the Officer in Charge of a Tactical Command on Feb. 28, 1969.

Bronze Star (PDF) For "professionalism, great personal courage under fire, and complete dedication to duty" in rescuing, while wounded, a man overboard following a mine explosion, directing his gunners to provide supporting fire for the rescue, and towing a damaged boat to safety under enemy fire on March 13, 1969

Acceptance of Discharge Naval Reserve (PDF) July 13, 1978

Background Information (PDF) Feb. 1, 1966

Bupers Orders to Gridley (PDF) Nov. 17, 1966

Change of Duty (PDF) July 8, 1968

DD214 (PDF)

Duty Recommendations (PDF)

Emergency Data (PDF) Sept. 12, 1967

Enlistment Contract (PDF) Feb. 18, 1966

Enlistment Photo (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966

Fitness Reports (PDF) Apr. 12, 1967

Honorable Discharge from Reserve (PDF) Feb. 16, 1978

Leave Record (PDF)

National Defense Service Medal (PDF)

Naval Messages (PDF) Dec. 8, 1969

Naval OCS Report (PDF)

Nuclear Weapons Training Certificate (PDF) For training from May
8 - 11, 1967

Office Order Memos (PDF) Dec. 5, 1969

Officer Candidate Agreement (PDF) Feb. 18, 1966

Order to Officer Candidate (PDF) July 14, 1966

Pay Entry Base Date (PDF) Listed as Feb. 18, 1966

Personnel Casualty Report (PDF)

Presidential Unit Citation (PDF) "For Extraordinary Herosim" from Dec. 6, 1968 to Mar. 31, 1969

Qualifying Questionnaire (PDF) Oct. 16, 1970

Recommendations for Next (PDF) Nov. 24, 1969

Record of Discharge (PDF)

Release From Active Duty (PDF) Jan. 2, 1970

Report of Home of Record (PDF) Dec. 1966

Request for History of Service (PDF) May 24, 1986

Request for Swiftboat Duty (PDF) Feb. 10, 1968

Research Sheet F4-15 (PDF) June 21, 1967

Reserve Office Appointment (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966

Security Clearances (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966

Service Record (PDF) Prepared Jan. 25, 1985

Serviceman's Life Insurance (PDF) Dec. 8-9, 1968

Statement of Service (PDF) June 21, 1967

Thrice Wounded Reassignment (PDF) March 17, 1969

Top Secret Clearance (PDF) April 28, 1969

Training School Record (PDF) Feb. 18, 1968

Transfer to Standby Reserve (PDF) March 1, 1972

Travel Payment Order (PDF) Undated

Vietnam Service Medal (PDF) April 8, 1968
=========================================
Now, just because they were on the same page:

ALL of Bush's military records that are available to the public.

Military Records of First Lieutenant George W. Bush for National Guard Service Between 1972 and 1973:

Jan. 6, 1973 USAF Dental Exam Record for 1st Lt. George W. Bush (HTML) [PDF version] Released by White House on Feb. 11, 2004

Memorandum of Lt. Col. Albert C. Lloyd, Jr. (Ret.) (HTML) [PDF version] (Analysis of Military Payroll Records for George W. Bush for service from 1972 to 1973) Released by White House on Feb. 10, 2004

USAF Reserve Personnel Record Card for 1st Lt. George W. Bush (HTML) [PDF version] (Covers period from 27 May 1972 to 26 May 1973) Released by White House on Feb. 10, 2004

ARF 1st Statement of Points Earned by 1st Lt. George W. Bush (1972-1973) (HTML) [PDF version] Released by White House on Feb. 10, 2004

ARF 2nd Statement of Points Earned by 1st Lt. George W. Bush (1973) (HTML) [PDF version] Released by White House on Feb. 10, 2004

Military Payroll Records of 1st Lt. George W. Bush (1972-1973) (HTML) [PDF version] Released by White House on Feb. 10, 2004

 

[phamton]

Snopes has tackled this one:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

John Kerry's service in Vietnam as an officer in command of a Swift boat and his subsequent activities as an anti-war protester have engendered a good deal of controversy, especially among those who also served in Vietnam. Many Vietnam veterans were angered by Kerry's anti-war stance after he returned to the U.S., viewing his anti-war activities — particularly his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 — as unfairly and undeservedly smearing the reputations of all who served in Vietnam.

That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can evaluated as "true" or "false." It's true that the men named do exist, that they served in Vietnam, and that they made the statements attributed to them, but the substance of most of these quotes is an expression of opinion, not something objectively classifiable as right or wrong.


Although the men quoted above are often identified as "John Kerry's shipmates," only one of them, Steven Gardner, actually served under Lt. Kerry's command on a Swift boat. The other men who served under Kerry's command continue to speak positively of him. Many of Kerry's Vietnam commanders and fellow officers also continue to speak positively of him.

How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record.

And for more information on his medals:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

"There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts — from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades," said George Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes. Kerry, he had three Purple Hearts. None of them took him off duty. Not to belittle it, that was more the rule than the exception."

Kerry earned his Silver Star on 28 February 1969, when he beached his craft and jumped off it with an M-16 rifle in hand to chase and shoot a guerrilla who was running into position to launch a B-40 rocket at Kerry's boat. Contrary to the account quoted above, Kerry did not shoot a "Charlie" who had "fired at the boat and missed," whose "rocket launcher was empty," and who was "already dead or dying" after being "knocked down with a .50 caliber round." Kerry's boat had been hit by a rocket fired by someone else — the guerrilla in question was still armed with a live B-40 and had only been clipped in the leg; when the guerrilla got up to run, Kerry assumed he was getting into position to launch a rocket and shot him.

There is more about that incident at the url posted above. And just for the record, I'm not a Kerry supporter.

 

[Pin Wizard]

Interesting link, Saffron.

 

[Saffron]

It is interesting, isn't it? It's not a partisan web site, it's not even about politics for the most part, it's about law. I can get lost on there. I start reading one case or one document, then see another interesting one, then another, then another and another etc.

It also has articles from just about every major news source around the world, which can give me perspectives of others on different issues.

I like the site a lot. The BBs there are interesting too, because they have a lot of lawyers and law students talking about current issues ... lawyers and law students from all around the world!

 

[Pin Wizard]

I'll definitely be going back there.

In the meantime, I just finished looking at Snopes. I never knew about Snopes until I found these boards. Maybe I'm missing it, but why do people look at Snopes like everything on there is gospel? I'm a little leary of them at times.