Any adults who were homeschooled?

[TheDisneyGirl02]

Before I respond to the posts below, I must admit that I wrote that right before I went to bed last night and may not have written exactly what I was thinking. (That should teach me a lesson not to post anything when I'm not 100% awake! LOL!!!)

When I said state testing - I didn't mean teaching to the test, I meant a test that ALL students (regardless of where a child is educated) should have take to make sure that they are where they should to be (of course there are exceptions to the rule) for their grade/age. No Child Left Behind wants 100% proficiency for all children (at least that is how I understand it) regardless of education location. I realize that no such test exists though.

Bolding mine.....

I agree with a lot of your statement. No system of education is "perfect," and there will never be a perfect system. I also have no problems with most of the individuals we encountered while in the public school system. Both of my daughters had wonderful teachers. I had more of a problem with the "system." The attendance policies. The homework demands. The endless fundraisers. Things like that -- not so much the individuals we dealt with. I am a product of public education, and I, too, did just fine in college and beyond. That is just not the path we have chosen for our girls -- for now at least.

However..... I couldn't disagree more with the part of your statement I bolded. In Florida, our students take the FCAT, and the schools begin "teaching" it from the first day in Kindergarten. From day 1, they are learning how to fill in bubbles and take the test. In later years, they are taught the material that is on the test. I have no doubt that my dds would not score as well as some of their peers because we were not privy to the things on the test. However, last year, we focused on American history and this year we are focusing on world geography and cultures, and I have no doubt that my girls could hold their own in these subjects. You say taking this test would be the only fair way to judge how they're doing, but in truth, it couldn't be more unfair.

I agree with you 100%. Teaching to the test isn't right, as a matter of fact I hate the concept and I know teachers hate it also. It takes so much of the fun out of education. I wish education would go back to the way it was before NCLB - then teachers could spend time on American history, geography, etc. Those subjects are now ignored because of teaching to the test and that is sad.

I never did well on standardized tests in school - I could ace an essay exam, but give me the bubbles and I always colored in the wrong letter/number/whatever. It bothers me that any student has to take those tests. It's stressful for them and their teachers - undue stress for sure. I also hate the thought that if I would be in school now, my scores would most likely pull the school's test score down. It's not anybody fault but mine if I'm not good at testing like that - don't punish the school/teacher because of my inability to fill in bubble.

In TN they take TCAPS. DD's never taken a TCAP test but she has (sinceK) always taken a nationalized test. Why do state's make up their own test anyway? Why doesn't a 3rd grander in FL take the same same test as a 3rd grader in TN or the one the 3rd grader in MD takes? I've always wondered that.
I'm just curious.

I would always want my child to be tested so we know where she stands. Testing isn't the be all, end all in my book but I like to use it as a guide. Besides, being able to take a test is important. I want DD to do as well as possible on ACTs and SATs.

I've always wondered the same thing! Why isn't there a national test for all third graders to take regardless of the state? That would be the fair way to measure students state by state.

I disagree--it is not a fair way. Homeschool is not by definition "public school at home". If it were, then requiring the "same" testing would be fair.

However--even in the more strict states with specific subject requirements, it would not be fair to require a student to take the same tests as public student b/c the subject matter may be taught differently or even a different order.

For example, many homeschoolers teach history chronologically. The children are not at a deficit and if following the classical model they will have learned an overview of all of history from the beginning until present day in four years. But--for a child who is doing Story of the World and is only in their 2nd year--they wouldn't have studied the American Revolution yet. (We don't use SOTW--so I'm throwing out a more "recent" event in American History). Depending on the grade--if you pluck that child into a state test where the children for that given academic year have covered that topic, the child will test and possibly do poorly. It proves nothing as the child's curriculum will cover that topic within two years in full detail.

It would be unfair to obligate testing for a curriculum the homeschool family isn't modeling.

My daughter does Math U See. She also takes a standardized test (not our state's FCAT) by our choice.

Her Math score dipped this year. The reason: Multiplication is taught all together--single digit to triple digit in the 3rd level while Division is taught all together in the 4th level. She is instructed that if she doesn't know something to skip it and she skipped lots of problems in math for that very reason. It would be unfair to hold her to the state standard where they mix multiplication and division together and then judge my teaching on that standard when we use a very valid and legitimate math program that just teaches mathematics in a different manner/order.

Private schools also teach differently and in our state, they do have to do standardized testing. But they do not have to do the state mandated test. (So our parochial school at our church uses Iowa
I believe.) We use Stanford Achievement.

I think it is fair that the state have "some" involvement for holding parents accountable. But we have been led to believe that a bubble test is the ONLY way to do that. It isn't.

The same thing happens with public school students. Some students may not understand the math concepts but they still have to take the test. I've already stated that I don't like testing like that, but I'm just stating what happens. In a public school they don't have the choice to skip it, which is a positive thing for HS.

I think many of the things you said happen everyday to public school teachers. They have students who don't understand concepts but still have to take the test. Those teachers are judged on those test scores even if that student doesn't understand the concepts - is it fair? Not at all, but it happens.

As far as the curriculum that you use for math, when does the student re-do the concepts that they skipped? Is it usually at the end of a chapter? I'm just curious - it sounds like an interesting concept and I'm going to do a search on curriculum. (after I"m done posting of course )

She didn't say all public schools were failures, you didn't bold her next line, saying of course there are success stories, I don't think she was saying all public schools fail all kids, because of course we know they don't.

I also disagree with having HS kids take the state mandated tests. the purpose of those tests is to see how the school is performing really, that is why they teach to the test, they have to be sure the students pass or there are repercussions for the school.
it would not make sense for a HS student to take it since they are not being taught by those teachers at the school.

But HS students are being taught by a teacher - their parents. Shouldn't there be a test or something to show that they are where they should be when it comes to learning? (There may be a test, I don't know and it may be a state to state thing. )

See...I think this is exactly why they SHOULD take the test... They are monitoring the teachers at the school...shouldn't they monitor the teachers at home?
It's all still learning, dont' we need to know what's being taught and their level of comprehensioin, regardless of their learning atmosphere?

I agree with you 100%.


I guess what I'm trying to say is that if there is a test that one student must take to say that they are on grade level, then ALL students should have to take a test to say that they are on grade level - regardless of who is teaching.

I am not against HS - I feel a parent should do what is right for their child, but at the same time I feel that regardless of who is teaching there needs to be accountability for that child's education. In public school there is the state testing (which I don't like). Is there a test like that for HS or does it vary from curriculum to curriculum?

 

[laurie31]

I never did well on standardized tests in school - I could ace an essay exam, but give me the bubbles and I always colored in the wrong letter/number/whatever. It bothers me that any student has to take those tests. It's stressful for them and their teachers - undue stress for sure. I also hate the thought that if I would be in school now, my scores would most likely pull the school's test score down. It's not anybody fault but mine if I'm not good at testing like that - don't punish the school/teacher because of my inability to fill in bubble.



I've always wondered the same thing! Why isn't there a national test for all third graders to take regardless of the state? That would be the fair way to measure students state by state.



As far as the curriculum that you use for math, when does the student re-do the concepts that they skipped? Is it usually at the end of a chapter? I'm just curious - it sounds like an interesting concept and I'm going to do a search on curriculum. (after I"m done posting of course )

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if there is a test that one student must take to say that they are on grade level, then ALL students should have to take a test to say that they are on grade level - regardless of who is teaching.

I am not against HS - I feel a parent should do what is right for their child, but at the same time I feel that regardless of who is teaching there needs to be accountability for that child's education. In public school there is the state testing (which I don't like). Is there a test like that for HS or does it vary from curriculum to curriculum?

I am confused...you say you don't like standardized testing, and in fact you yourself do NOT perform well on those types of tests, but then turn around and say there should be such tests?

I don't mean to be snarky, honestly. I just think you are brilliantly illustrating why so many homeschoolers are opposed to the standardized testing. They do NOT measure the student's knowledge. I feel this is true for public schooled students as well.

The part I bolded strikes fear into my very soul!!! Education is NOT a national thing, it is a state thing. (and I apologize, I am also tired and am not expressing myself very well). But states' rights are SOVEREIGN!! The federal government already has too much control over everything. I do NOT want some national standard for curriculum!! Yikes!!!

Also, I wanted to clarify - you misread the post about Math U See and skipping material. Her DD wasn't skipping math lessons she didn't understand, she was skipping the individual problems she didn't understand on the STATE TEST, because she hadn't covered that material yet.


Back to the OP, here is a nice article about a homeschooling family who had three sons accepted to Harvard. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=132239 They approach things very differently than we do, but that's the beauty of educating your own children the way you see fit.

I think the emotional responses in this thread mirror those in the dreaded international vs. domestic adoption threads. It's such a personal decision, made with a great deal of thought (and often prayer) and then when someone comes along and questions it, one can feel threatened, as if we somehow have done a terrible thing. Most people are simply curious (which I believe the OP was ) but I've encountered the rude, the ignorant, and the just plain dumb, and some days, you just aren't in the mood. Other days I encounter the curious, the supportive and even the envious, and I'm happy to answer their questions.

Finally, for the record, I homeschool my 8th grade DD, and my 5th grader is in public school. I am an officer in the PTA and everything, so I'm NOT anti-public school (or for goodness sakes, DD10 would not be there). It's all about meeting the needs of your child. The state doesn't have the resources or the manpower to meet the needs of ALL children...but I do have the means to meet the needs of both of mine.

At this point, we plan for DD to return to public high school in 10th grade, and be dual-enrolled in the local community college. She will graduate high school with her associates degree. Then she can transfer to a 4 year college just like any other community college student does.

 

[MiniGirl]

I've always wondered the same thing! Why isn't there a national test for all third graders to take regardless of the state? That would be the fair way to measure students state by state.

I actually read an article about this many years ago. I can't cite evidence or anything like that. It was just something I remember reading, so my recollection may not be totally correct. Anyway, this article was describing how very difficult it is to make a nationwide test that would be fair. The problem was that so much learning does, in fact, happen outside the classroom and it is impossible to make a test that doesn't reflect that. For example, those who grow up in a city aren't as likely to know as much about science and nature as those who grow up in a more rural area running around outside and playing in the dirt, etc. OTOH, those who grow up in a city are going to have more of an awareness of different things. Those of us who grew up in the coastal south are not as knowledgable about winter weather patterns as those who grew up experiencing a change in seasons, but we sure know about snakes and rain patterns and hurricanes. Things like that.

Over the years we do learn but our environment will make some of us more aware (knowledgable) about some things at an earlier age than others who are growing up elsewhere.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

I am confused...you say you don't like standardized testing, and in fact you yourself do NOT perform well on those types of tests, but then turn around and say there should be such tests?

I don't mean to be snarky, honestly. I just think you are brilliantly illustrating why so many homeschoolers are opposed to the standardized testing. They do NOT measure the student's knowledge. I feel this is true for public schooled students as well.

The part I bolded strikes fear into my very soul!!! Education is NOT a national thing, it is a state thing. (and I apologize, I am also tired and am not expressing myself very well). But states' rights are SOVEREIGN!! The federal government already has too much control over everything. I do NOT want some national standard for curriculum!! Yikes!!!

Also, I wanted to clarify - you misread the post about Math U See and skipping material. Her DD wasn't skipping math lessons she didn't understand, she was skipping the individual problems she didn't understand on the STATE TEST, because she hadn't covered that material yet.


Back to the OP, here is a nice article about a homeschooling family who had three sons accepted to Harvard. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=132239 They approach things very differently than we do, but that's the beauty of educating your own children the way you see fit.

I think the emotional responses in this thread mirror those in the dreaded international vs. domestic adoption threads. It's such a personal decision, made with a great deal of thought (and often prayer) and then when someone comes along and questions it, one can feel threatened, as if we somehow have done a terrible thing. Most people are simply curious (which I believe the OP was ) but I've encountered the rude, the ignorant, and the just plain dumb, and some days, you just aren't in the mood. Other days I encounter the curious, the supportive and even the envious, and I'm happy to answer their questions.

Finally, for the record, I homeschool my 8th grade DD, and my 5th grader is in public school. I am an officer in the PTA and everything, so I'm NOT anti-public school (or for goodness sakes, DD10 would not be there). It's all about meeting the needs of your child. The state doesn't have the resources or the manpower to meet the needs of ALL children...but I do have the means to meet the needs of both of mine.

At this point, we plan for DD to return to public high school in 10th grade, and be dual-enrolled in the local community college. She will graduate high school with her associates degree. Then she can transfer to a 4 year college just like any other community college student does.

Like I said, I hate standardized tests - HATE them! However they are used to measure a student's knowledge, which I don't think is right. Since this is the case, IMO, than ALL students, regardless of where they are educated should take some form of a test to ensure that each student is learning what/how they should be learning. It seems like a harsh statement, but I sort of feel like 'what is good for the goose should be good for the gander'. Do you sort of see where I'm coming from? If some students are obligated to take a test by law to prove that they are learning, shouldn't all students in private and charter schools as well as HS have to prove the same?

Thank you for clearing up my mistake over the Math U See. I went to the web site and was intrigued because it was used for some students in a special education class at a public school. I'll have to ask my dad/sister if either of them have ever heard of it.

I'm sorry if my thoughts are really making too much sense - I have a lot on my mind right now. I'm trying to plan a wedding and I just found out that my mom needs to have a bone scan for a lesion they found on her tibia and I am scared to death something is going to happen to her - that is why what I'm posting today may sound confusing.

 

[MrsPete]

I know probably 10-12 adults who were homeschooled for at least a portion of their education. I don't think any of them were 100% homeschooled; rather, they did a couple years here, couple years there type of education. Most of them have gone on to what I'd consider "mainstream" colleges -- the same colleges that most of our public school graduates attend. About half of them have started at community colleges, and then gone on to 4-year universities. Not all of them have completed degrees, but none of them are unemployed bums either. None of the people I know personally has gone on to really superior colleges, nor have any of them achieved stupendous success financially, politically, or otherwise. In other words, they seem to be average adults like the majority of us.

I do know two -- both young women -- who seem to have suffered a bit from their parents' choices. Both of them are from families who homeschooled for mainly religious reasons, and who WANTED to keep their daughters isolated from the dangerous aspects of society. One of them went away to college, but she returned home within the week saying that she just couldn't do it. She never really had time to judge whether she could manage her classes; she couldn't handle living in a dorm away from home. She's been finished with high school for three years now and is still working at the tanning salon and living with her parents. Not the future I envison for my daughters. The other went to community college (while living at home), and she works as a church secretary. Both of these girls seem comfortable only within their own social group and religion, and both of them seem to view working as something to do until they're married; I hope that neither of them ever finds herself forced to support her family -- they aren't prepared.

However, I think these two girls -- if they had been public schoolers -- would still have these same tendencies. I think their parents still would've kept them overly-sheltered, and they still would've been raised to keep within their own small group, never lifting their heads to glimpse the rest of the big, bad world. I don't think they're typical of homeschoolers as a group, but at the same time, I certainly can't know the only two who turned out this way.

While there are people who say they are homeschooling and really just participating in 'legalized truancy' the majority does a very good job of educating their children.

As a public school teacher, I see this from the other side of the fence, and I think there are a good number of families doing the "legalized truancy" thing.

I've seen families whose children didn't attend school regularly (for various reasons, mostly that they just didn't care), and when their parents learned that they can't get away with this in high school like they did in elementary school, they "decide to homeschool". For a family that wasn't bothering much with education in the first place, this is just a route to, as you aptly put it, "legalized truancy". I would not suggest that this is a typical homeschooling family, but these people certainly do exist.

I suspect, however, that you -- a homeschooler who's really interested in doing well for her children -- don't rub shoulders with this type of family. They would not bother to seek out homeschool groups, etc., and that might make "real homeschoolers" minimize their numbers. These are the people who choose homeschooling to mask a problem in the family -- not because they think they can provide a superior education. Public school teachers who teach 9th grade (or 10th, if that's your first high school grade) tend to see these families; I'd guess that when I taught 9th grade I saw about one family per year who'd meet this description.

I have not met many adults who were homeschooled but I have heard of a few: Joseph Pulitzer, Sandra Day O'Conner, 14 U.S. presidents, Alexander Graham Bell, Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, The Wright brothers, Agatha Christy, Mark Twain, Andrew Carnegie, Susan B. Anthony, Frank Loyd Wright and the list goes on.

Now, in all fairness, regardless of whether you think homeschooling is the best thing since sliced bread or the devil itself, this is not really a fair list of homeschooled adults. Many of these people lived at a time in history when public schools didn't at all resemble their present form. Many of those US presidents -- Mark Twain too -- grew up on the frontier, and IF a schoolhouse was available to them, it was probably something like the one described in Laura Ingalls Wilder's books, which was run by a 15-16 year old girl with no real training, and whose sessions lasted only a few weeks each year. Susan B. Anthony certainly didn't have access to the education today's girls do. I'd argue that a parent who wants to judge the effectiveness of homeschooling should look only at people homeschooled since perhaps 1950 or 1960.

I guess I have never understood comments like this. You have experienced a couple families that you feel are not making the most out of homeschooling (although playing outside during your definition of school hours and not knowing the months of the year in order aren't incriminating evidence). From that, you seem to question if there are any "success stories" or if it is all "negative."

You're certainly jumping straight to a defensive posture. The OP flat-out said that she was asking a question from curiosity and that she wasn't bashing anyone. She never questioned whether success stories exist; rather, she asked to hear them.

I agree that parents should get to read the resume of their child's teacher but that will never happen as that is not made public inforamtion.

While I suspect that most public school teachers don't keep their resumes updated (I don't; I've been in the same job for 16 years, and I'm not looking to leave -- redoing my resume would just be paperwork for me), their credentials ARE public information. In fact, you can learn quite a bit about the qualifications of the teachers at my school just from scanning the school website.

The only semi-downside I noticed is that some of them had trouble doing things that weren't planned to their desires or strengths. You know how, in the work world, you sometimes have to do things that don't make sense, are less than effective, or operate on someone else's input and timetable? That's the kind of stuff some of them had trouble with. They were so used to the flexibility of homeschooling that the rigidity that is sometimes required by the work world was difficult for them.

Back when I used to teach 9th grade, we'd frequently get kids who'd been homeschooled throughout elementary and middle school, but who'd then entered public school for the first time as high school freshmen. I did notice that some of them had difficulty understanding the idea of doing things a certain way because it was more effective for a group. To give an example, I remember one girl who simply could not get it through her head that she was not allowed to write in her hard-cover grammar book. I'm sure she'd been used to having workbooks at home, but no matter how many times I explained to her that the book wasn't hers to keep and it would belong to another student the next year, and no matter how many times I told her that it was not okay to write in the book and then erase it . . . well, she just wouldn't hear me. Finally, her mother agreed to pay for the book so that she could keep it. Most students adjust to these "gotta do the group thing in this situation" concept, but a few just are steadfastly resistant. I do think that's going to make the working world difficult for those few.

. . . I've met some really great homeschoolers and I've met some real duds which you're going to find everywhere.

The big problem I've seen is that many of the teenage homeschoolers I've met have a real attitude these days. They think they're smarter than you and they let you know it! They talk down to you. It's very off putting. I don't know if that's just a characteristic of being highly intelligent that they have poor social skills or if it's part of their homeschooling.

You can find the same thing among public schoolers and private schoolers: some great kids and some duds. And fewer and fewer in the middle ground.

The smarter-than-you attitude, though, I believe is a generational thing -- not a product of the child's school choices. We have a generation peppered with kids who've been taught to think they are more unique, more special, and more priviledged than others. We have quite a few kids in public school who are quite ready to explain to their teachers, parents, and coaches that they are MUCH SMARTER than their elders (even while spouting forth evidence to the contrary). I genuinely believe that the kids with this Move over, I'm gonna put the world in its place attitude are going to head out into the work world and fall flat on their collective faces.

I'll give you a funny example: I was driving a carload of kids to an after-school activity. The girls attend different schools, and one little bratty kiddo was expostulating to her friends in no uncertain terms that her private school is SOOO MUCH BETTER than public schools. She was telling them that they were studying the explorers of the North: Charlemagne and so forth. It was clear from her tone that she was determined to put the lowly public school girls into their place and let them know just how superior she was. The other little girls were looking rather ashamed because they didn't have a clue what she was talking about. She explained that her teacher had told them that public school kids didn't study this stuff for two more years. She was really hitting her stride, and I was wondering just how to stop this little speel politely, when she asked me in her most arrogant tone, "Mrs. ___, do YOU know about the explorers of the North?" I quietly asked her, "Northern portion of what? Europe? North America? Africa?" Not being a stupid child, she realized instantly that I knew she had simply memorized a couple facts, and she didn't have a genuine understanding of the historical information she was pretending to know. This conversation ended immediately, and the girls all turned to a more appropriate after-school conversation -- one that didn't include putting one another down.

 

[ladycollector]

Haven't read the thread -

I was homeschooled from 6th grade to 10th grade. (11th grade I entered college.)

I am now (newly) 20 and a senior majoring in Accounting at the University of Central Florida.

I attribute my success and interest in accounting to the amount of time my dad required I spend on math each day. It was like pulling teeth, but my college math classes were so easy I didn't even need to study.

I'd say it turned out pretty well for me.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

I'll give you a funny example: I was driving a carload of kids to an after-school activity. The girls attend different schools, and one little bratty kiddo was expostulating to her friends in no uncertain terms that her private school is SOOO MUCH BETTER than public schools. She was telling them that they were studying the explorers of the North: Charlemagne and so forth. It was clear from her tone that she was determined to put the lowly public school girls into their place and let them know just how superior she was. The other little girls were looking rather ashamed because they didn't have a clue what she was talking about. She explained that her teacher had told them that public school kids didn't study this stuff for two more years. She was really hitting her stride, and I was wondering just how to stop this little speel politely, when she asked me in her most arrogant tone, "Mrs. ___, do YOU know about the explorers of the North?" I quietly asked her, "Northern portion of what? Europe? North America? Africa?" Not being a stupid child, she realized instantly that I knew she had simply memorized a couple facts, and she didn't have a genuine understanding of the historical information she was pretending to know. This conversation ended immediately, and the girls all turned to a more appropriate after-school conversation -- one that didn't include putting one another down.

It's funny you bring that up. My sister (who is a public school teacher) was just venting to me the other day about her friend who is a teacher in a catholic school. She told me that her friend is constantly putting down public school kids saying how the stuff she is teaching, the public school kids won't learn for another year or two. My sister and I are both products of public school and I think we turned out just fine.

 

[raysnkaysmom]

See...I think this is exactly why they SHOULD take the test... They are monitoring the teachers at the school...shouldn't they monitor the teachers at home?
It's all still learning, dont' we need to know what's being taught and their level of comprehensioin, regardless of their learning atmosphere?

in my state we are required to cover certain subjects just as the public schools, but the difference is we can cover them how we want, which may mean a different curriculum or style, so no it would not be fair to take the same test as the PS school kids who are all taught the same curriculum the same way.

NO!

We do NOT use the same curriculum as the state. So we should not be required to teach the SAME test.

Subjects are taught in different ways depending on the curriculum.

My daughters learned reading with "Scaredy Cat Phonics"--an excellent program that was designed by an LD teacher and used on children whose parents were told by the state they would never read. Well, they did. My kids like the approach and that is what they used. They wouldn't know what a "long" versus "short" vowel sound is, nor is that critical for their reading development. They learn "brave" and "scared"--very cute program. Highly effective. My 4th grader is reading on a high level. 1st grader is still trucking her way through "a" and we are about to start the next vowel sound and the words that go with it.

My new 4th grader doesn't know a single problem in division (yet).

Should the state penalize me b/c she didn't know it last year and won't learn it until this year? Am I a bad teacher b/c I used my knowledge and research to choose a mathematics curriculum that delays the introduction by one year?

I do my "teaching" job differently than a public school teacher. It is unfair and impossible to judge "my" teaching by using a test that is designed to see how THEY are teaching THEIR curriculum.

Should I really face repercussions for not following my state's educational curriculum requirements for their students? Private schools don't even have ramifications and are permitted to choose different curriculum from the public school system.

I've always wondered the same thing! Why isn't there a national test for all third graders to take regardless of the state? That would be the fair way to measure students state by state.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that if there is a test that one student must take to say that they are on grade level, then ALL students should have to take a test to say that they are on grade level - regardless of who is teaching.

I am not against HS - I feel a parent should do what is right for their child, but at the same time I feel that regardless of who is teaching there needs to be accountability for that child's education. In public school there is the state testing (which I don't like). Is there a test like that for HS or does it vary from curriculum to curriculum?

Thats my take... I"m not talking about a test on how they were taught... just on WHAT they were taught...
I mean, by, (hypothetically throwing something out there) say, 3rd grade, children should know their times tables to 9.. Ok... however (or whoever) taught them, can't they be tested at the end of their 3rd grade year on their times tables? (or... a list of definitions, basic spelling words, pyramids & kings, etc etc)...
Basically, regardless of the curriculam, shouldn't they all be learning the same things?

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

Thats my take... I"m not talking about a test on how they were taught... just on WHAT they were taught...
I mean, by, (hypothetically throwing something out there) say, 3rd grade, children should know their times tables to 9.. Ok... however (or whoever) taught them, can't they be tested at the end of their 3rd grade year on their times tables? (or... a list of definitions, basic spelling words, pyramids & kings, etc etc)...
Basically, regardless of the curriculam, shouldn't they all be learning the same things?

You said exactly what I was thinking...I just couldn't get the words out!

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

I knew one girl who was homeschooled. She was very nice, but a bit of an odd duck. However, that is more to do with the situation than the homeschooling. I started college when I was 15 through a special program that allows you to skip high school. Most of us had trouble relating to kids our age because we were gifted, some more than others. This girl had the most problems, but to me that was more a gifted thing than a homeschool thing. That and the fact her parents literally dragged her around the world to find educational opportunities, leaving her with few opportunities to make solid friendships with a peer age group. She was still a lovely girl, and we all got along great together because we understood eachother. I don't know how well she would have done socially in another group that did not have that understanding. But I would never presume to judge all homeschool kids by her as her situation was rather unique.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

Teaching to a test in no great way of educating IMO.
Also, homeschoolers who do not teach. Not good.

I homeschool and I teach. I DO NOT teach to a test though. I think kids miss out when that technique is used, and I think if more parents really understood... they'd question it more.

I agree.


If you do not homeschool, you more than likely do not understand how it works, so therefore might think about holding your opinion until you educate yourself on the subject.



Unsubscribing now.

That is what people in this thread are trying to do.

 

[laurie31]

Like I said, I hate standardized tests - HATE them! However they are used to measure a student's knowledge, which I don't think is right. Since this is the case, IMO, than ALL students, regardless of where they are educated should take some form of a test to ensure that each student is learning what/how they should be learning. It seems like a harsh statement, but I sort of feel like 'what is good for the goose should be good for the gander'. Do you sort of see where I'm coming from? If some students are obligated to take a test by law to prove that they are learning, shouldn't all students in private and charter schools as well as HS have to prove the same?

Thank you for clearing up my mistake over the Math U See. I went to the web site and was intrigued because it was used for some students in a special education class at a public school. I'll have to ask my dad/sister if either of them have ever heard of it.

I'm sorry if my thoughts are really making too much sense - I have a lot on my mind right now. I'm trying to plan a wedding and I just found out that my mom needs to have a bone scan for a lesion they found on her tibia and I am scared to death something is going to happen to her - that is why what I'm posting today may sound confusing.

Regarding the bolded, I think we agree that the current standardized tests available do NOT do a good job of measuring a student's knowledge. I think the grades they earn in their regular classes should be sufficient to show progress. Ironically, I did have my homeschooled DD take them after her first year at home. I wanted to make sure *I* was doing a good job - lol. She actually performed very well, except in the area of ecology. Well, it never occurred to me to teach ecology in the 6th grade. I thought the required subjects of English, Math, Science, and Social Studies, but my social studies curriculum did not include any information about ecology, and obviously the state curriculum did. (I also taught US Geography, Art, Music, and Bible. The test didn't bother measuring any geography knowledge, and I consider that very important).

My real concern is this: if a homeschooled student takes this standardized test, and does poorly, then what? Is someone going to come along and say the child must return to public school? How is that fair? What about all the public schooled children who do not perform well? No one suggests they must leave the system because it isn't working for them. So I'm not opposed to the tests themselves, I just worry about what might be done with the information.

I recall another thread (I think it wasn't about schooling at all, but about different words used in different parts of the country) where a 4th grade teacher complained that all her students missed a question about a subway. The only thing they knew by that name was a sandwich. They couldn't grasp how you could ride on a sandwich. I'm sure kids in NYC would know all about subways, but that doesn't mean they are *smarter* than children who live where there is no such thing.

Here is a really good article about standardized testing, parental qualifications, and academic achievement. http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100.asp

I think the reason I personally am unaware of the "legalized truancy-type" of homeschoolers is because that wouldn't be possible in this state. We are REQUIRED to be affiliated with a cover group, keep attendance records, lesson plans, and grades. I must submit my yearly curriculum and weekly lesson plans to my group's administrator, and also submit grades quarterly. I must document 170 days of school attendance. My cover group is 250 families (almost 600 children) and they are quite organized. I don't see how anyone could just coast along and not actually teach their kids anything here. I'm certain it could happen though, in places that don't require record-keeping and grades.

DisneyGirl, I'll be praying that everything is okay with your mother. Planning a wedding is fun but also stressful. I know your DD must want her grandmother to be happy and healthy to attend the ceremony. I hope you get good news very soon.

Finally, back to the OP's question again, here is an article about the ACT results of homeschooled students.

HOMESCHOOLERS BEAT NATIONAL AVERAGE ON ACT



Purcellville, VA—Recently, ACT published its results for 2009. On a scale of 1–36 homeschoolers scored an average of 22.5, which beat the national average of 21.1. “This is a remarkable achievement and shows that homeschool parents are successfully preparing their children for college,” said Michael Smith, president of HSLDA.

According to ACT officials, research shows that high achievement on the ACT strongly indicates a “greater likelihood of success in college.” Success on the ACT test also reveals that the courses taken by high school students to prepare for college have been effective.

A total of 1.48 million students took the ACT in 2009 which included 11,535 homeschoolers or just under 1 percent of the total.

The new ACT results also support the numerous studies which show that homeschoolers are out-performing their public school peers in K–12. The latest study from the National Home Education Research Institute shows that the average homeschooler scores 37 percentile points higher on standardized achievement test than the average public schooled student.

It has always been the position of homeschool advocates that the one-on-one instruction provided by dedicated parents is a more effective way to educate children. It’s also much cheaper.

The average public school spends $10,000 per child per year whereas the average homeschooler spends $500 per child per year. Homeschooling is also growing rapidly. The National Center for Education Statistics, part of the Federal Department of Education, estimates that homeschooling is growing at around 7% per year.

Due to the success and growth of the homeschool movement Washington Post education columnist Jay Mathews recently concluded that, “Homeschooling is the sleeping giant of the American education system.”

To find out more please visit www.hslda.org.

 

[npmommie]

I don't make generalizations about hs and ps students because there are bad and good involved in both. I find that there are examples of poor social skills in both, and examples of poor education in both, and great examples of successes in both. All of which can be attributed to a number of other things like parent effort, personality types, or life scenarios that may or may not have much to do with how the child is educated.

None of my PS school friends question me about my choice, instead they call and say, "my child is having trouble in XYZ class. Do you have any ideas of what I can do to help her?"

this is so true. everyone has experienced kids with social skills that are lacking and we never blame public school. there are examples in all areas of all kinds of kids, so many personality types in all areas. You just can't make generalizations.

When I said state testing - I didn't mean teaching to the test, I meant a test that ALL students (regardless of where a child is educated) should have take to make sure that they are where they should to be (of course there are exceptions to the rule) for their grade/age. No Child Left Behind wants 100% proficiency for all children (at least that is how I understand it) regardless of education location. I realize that no such test exists though.



I agree with you 100%. Teaching to the test isn't right, as a matter of fact I hate the concept and I know teachers hate it also. It takes so much of the fun out of education. I wish education would go back to the way it was before NCLB - then teachers could spend time on American history, geography, etc. Those subjects are now ignored because of teaching to the test and that is sad.

I never did well on standardized tests in school - I could ace an essay exam, but give me the bubbles and I always colored in the wrong letter/number/whatever. It bothers me that any student has to take those tests. It's stressful for them and their teachers - undue stress for sure. I also hate the thought that if I would be in school now, my scores would most likely pull the school's test score down. It's not anybody fault but mine if I'm not good at testing like that - don't punish the school/teacher because of my inability to fill in bubble.



I've always wondered the same thing! Why isn't there a national test for all third graders to take regardless of the state? That would be the fair way to measure students state by state.




As far as the curriculum that you use for math, when does the student re-do the concepts that they skipped? Is it usually at the end of a chapter? I'm just curious - it sounds like an interesting concept and I'm going to do a search on curriculum. (after I"m done posting of course )



But HS students are being taught by a teacher - their parents. Shouldn't there be a test or something to show that they are where they should be when it comes to learning? (There may be a test, I don't know and it may be a state to state thing. )





I am not against HS - I feel a parent should do what is right for their child, but at the same time I feel that regardless of who is teaching there needs to be accountability for that child's education. In public school there is the state testing (which I don't like). Is there a test like that for HS or does it vary from curriculum to curriculum?

bolding is mine

I think the difference in homeschooling is that our kids do not have to follow the same timeline. who says they have to learn certain concepts by a certain grade? so if my child is early or late in learning a concept it won't matter, because they will learn it, but maybe not in the same way or timeline the public schools do.
the public schools have to keep everyone on schedule learning certain things by certain grades, homeschoolers do not.
and in life does it really matter if the kids learn some thing by a certain age or not ..........no it doesn't except for in the PS world.

example.
all of your kids learned to walk at different ages. some early some late some right on the timeline given by others saying when they should walk.

so the kids that were late walkers, they still learned to walk, they still learned what they needed to learn to get there.
I see all learning like this.
the kids that are homeschooled will learn what they need to learn, but it may be on a different timeline.
so that is why it is unfair to suggest that all 3rd graders take the same test.
I personally don't believe in any testing like the state mandated tests, I dont' think it tests the kids accurately.

The bolded part about taking education back to the way it was. That is why we homeschool. so we CAN spend time on history and geography and astronomy and what ever else the kids want.

 

[Buckalew11]

Thanks laurie31 for sharing all that with me. I had not thought of any of that with the testing. DD took her last test this past spring anyway. From now on it'll be SATs and ACTs.

And then, someday in the future, you'll have her wedding to plan!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Thats my take... I"m not talking about a test on how they were taught... just on WHAT they were taught...
I mean, by, (hypothetically throwing something out there) say, 3rd grade, children should know their times tables to 9.. Ok... however (or whoever) taught them, can't they be tested at the end of their 3rd grade year on their times tables? (or... a list of definitions, basic spelling words, pyramids & kings, etc etc)...
Basically, regardless of the curriculam, shouldn't they all be learning the same things?

What test would you propose?

I'm asking b/c if a homeschooler can legally customize a curriculum--who would be the one to plan the test. I do test my child regularly. Would that be enough--a test that I created?

I am not sure it would based on your opinions.

Students don't even learn the same things in all 50 states at the precisely same time.

I remember moving from SC to LA. In Sc--we learn Algebra I then Algebra II then Geometry. No idea why. But in LA--they learn Algebra I then Geometry than Algebra II. I think the latter happens in many locations from what I hear. However the order didn't affect me negatively. I still went on and got a 5 on the AP Calculus exam and did well on my math SAT's.

There are some states that still treat Kindergarten like an introduction to school with half days while there are others that have them in full day and learning to read from day 1. (I'm of the school of thought that learning to read very early is not critical to overall educational development when looking at the individual student.) Admittedly--my middle child is the only one I "taught" Kindergarten simply b/c she was at the compulsary age of attendance. My oldest was not "taught" K and my youngest will not be either with the exception of just teaching what suits their interest at the time. We formally begin with 1st grade. (I didn't attend K either as at the time in SC.)

The general order doesn't matter. The end result does.

I could go on --but this was a small break while my daughter viewed her Math lesson on DVD so I will need to wrap it up.


And a side point--when I was in first or second grade (I was really young), I met a little Catholic school girl. At the time I was not Catholic (but did covet going to Catholic school--this may be why!) She began to inquire of my education in an elementary school sort of way. Then she began to say how she was smarter. I don't remember much of the conversation except for the part where I got in trouble for attempting to defend myself. I was really offended that she said that.

It happens everywhere. Generalizations generally do not truly define the group they generalize.

 

[littlepeppers]

My 9 year old is the most offended by people questioning her homeschooling and she ends up giving really snarky answers when people ask.

She'll mess with them and say "School, what is that? I was just let out of the attic yesterday."

Or we look at each other and go "Shoot! I knew there was something we were forgetting today"

Or sometimes she'll say "I already graduated, I just have a growing issue but thanks for pointing out my difference"


I think the OP was open minded instead of starting the thread with an intent on judging homeschooling. There are some sensative homeschoolers but I am not one of them.

We are HS this year. We are in the stage where people are just finding out & bashing. We are dealing w/ it, but not defending our choice.

Some of the people who posted here are super touchy & very defensive. If this is the attitude that you put out there then that is probably why people give you a hard time about HS.

Why are some of you so angry? HS is a great & wonderful thing. It should make you & your family happy. CHILL OUT!

 

[metime]

We are HS this year. We are in the stage where people are just finding out & bashing. We are dealing w/ it, but not defending our choice.

Some of the people who posted here are super touchy & very defensive. If this is the attitude that you put out there then that is probably why people give you a hard time about HS.

Why are some of you so angry? HS is a great & wonderful thing. It should make you & your family happy. CHILL OUT!

I answered that in these posts that you didn't bother to read.

Sometimes I really don't feel the need to be someone's lesson for the day. I am also busy. You may have 30 minutes at every errand you run during school hours, but I don't.

I don't mind saying something if I were asked but the thing is I let my daughter speak for herself. She doesn't even say she is homeschooled so how would they know. I teach her that she doesn't owe an explination and she doesn't have to share personal information with complete strangers.

They don't have a way of knowing and I am not sure what you teach your children about strangers but I teach mine that they don't have to answer personal questions like that.

It isn't like she says she homeschools and flips them a bird.

So how would you feel if you worked from home and everywhere you went people said with a questioning glare, "Shouldn't you be at work today?"

Then when you say you work from home you end up in a thirty minute conversation about what you do, why you do it, and how long you do it, what your experience is... and so on.

Lots of people also disregard that there is a 5,6, or 7 year old standing there and say the most narrow minded things. One woman looked at my daughter when she was 7 and said "you should go to regular school!"

Unless the question is from a truancy officer we don't have to politely answer that question. It is none of their business.

Why do people think children should have to answer any questions from a complete stranger? I see people being nosey as rude.

Sometimes we don't want to be everyone's example of a homeschooler. Sometimes we just want to go grocery shopping at noon and go about our day.

The bottom lline is that it isn't anyone's business and me taking my 8 year old to a movie at 11am on a shcool day does not mean they have a right to pry. I certainly don't feel I owe anyone an explination but I allow her to answer how she sees fit since she is usually the one being asked.

Also keep in mind I have been homeschooling a lot longer and have had the wonderful opportunities to hear some great responses and quite a few terrible ones. In my opinion when children are involved I really don't think I need to expose then to the narrow minded opinions of education from the person who is currently a cashier at the local Wal-mart. I am not saying anything negative about Wal-mart employees just that it isn't where I go for opinions on education, just toilet paper.

I know those new to homeschooling are all about sharing their wonderful experiences with anyone who asks but it gets old after the first year or so because I don't waste my time explaining to people why it works for us because I have better things to do.


And to all those concerned about other teachers, most homeschoolers are exposed to more teachers than you think. My children play the piano, violin, drums, guitar, took dance, karate, and attended Girl Scouts, in addition to attending lots of things through the library and learing things from those in our group who chose to hold a class. All fo those were with different teachers. I know of very few homeschoolers who teach their child every subject.

 

[littlepeppers]

I answered that in these posts that you didn't bother to read.





Also keep in mind I have been homeschooling a lot longer and have had the wonderful opportunities to hear some great responses and quite a few terrible ones. In my opinion when children are involved I really don't think I need to expose then to the narrow minded opinions of education from the person who is currently a cashier at the local Wal-mart. I am not saying anything negative about Wal-mart employees just that it isn't where I go for opinions on education, just toilet paper.

I know those new to homeschooling are all about sharing their wonderful experiences with anyone who asks but it gets old after the first year or so because I don't waste my time explaining to people why it works for us because I have better things to do.


And to all those concerned about other teachers, most homeschoolers are exposed to more teachers than you think. My children play the piano, violin, drums, guitar, took dance, karate, and attended Girl Scouts, in addition to attending lots of things through the library and learing things from those in our group who chose to hold a class. All fo those were with different teachers. I know of very few homeschoolers who teach their child every subject.

I'm only on pg 4-5 right now. I'm glad to see that they have people that don't feel the need to defend HS. This is my new attitude about it too since my 1st bad experience. I'm determined to make it our only BAD experience. DS doesn't think it is wrong & I don't want anyone making him feel like it is.

I don't advertise it b/c I don't think it is an issue. DS is very proud of it & tends to be very open about it when people (small town living here) ask. I find DH feels the need to explain.

DH & myself are both certified teachers, so I don't want to hear those things from anyone. IMO, I don't owe anyone an explination why we are anywhere. Small town life is making it a little weird, but thankfully the only people that have even had the guts to ask or say anything were people we know & care about. (one exception, but she is a bitty & she will have an opinion on dirt if you give an opportunity).

I'm noticing that our family if not so Keeping Up w/ the Jones. DH works 7 & 7 but home every night. We take 5 days off when he is home. We are mashing as a family finally & not passing eachother. It is great, relaxing, & peaceful.

 

[LiteBrite]

I'm the mom of a homeschool graduate, who was homeschooled all the way through.

I'm just here to answer the OP's original question about how homeschooled adults do in the real world. My daughter was easily accepted into a state university, where she has just begun her senior year. She got a partial scholarship based on her high school grades and her SAT score, and has enough additional scholarship money from the music department (she is a violin performance major) to cover the rest of her tuition and part of her living expenses.

She did take some college courses while she was still in high school, and she had a little trouble adjusting to the system there at first. She actually had to take an F in an English Comp course when she was 16, not because she couldn't handle the work (she had an A average on her papers and tests during the semester), but because she wasn't organized enough to get her final project in on time - she let the deadline slip by without emailing her work to her teacher, and the teacher failed her because of it. The irony of the situation was that her project was finished on time, she just didn't get her act together to turn it in. Lesson learned - she took the F and never let it happen again.

After a few bobbles of that nature, she adjusted nicely to college life. She lived in the dorm at first and later in an apartment with a roommate. She's made either the Dean's list or the President's list every semester since she started college "for real".

She's already working in her chosen field while she's still in college - she holds contracts with 2 symphonies and the local opera company. She teaches violin lessons and has a growing studio, as well as playing weddings and recording sessions. She's had to learn to keep her own books and budget through this, and is handling it well.

In short, in our personal experience, the answer to the original question of how homeschooled adults do in college and in life - so far, so good. She's not perfect, but she is functioning very well and I'm proud of her. I think her homeschooling is standing her in good stead.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So today we are out getting the kids hair cut. There are a few kids there actually and mine were the finally two. We were getting finished up when a lady getting her hair dyed commented "Aren't kids supposed to be in school right now."

Couldn't get upset since it was almost....4:00.

I'm not sure if it was a joke--but surprised that we were out minding our own business and were subject to scrutiny. (this was not said to me, but another adult who was with her. Didn't hear the rest of her conversation, but for some reason she elevated her voice for that part.)


Reminds me of when I was little and stayed home sick with something or other. If my mom had to run and errand I would be paranoid and try to insist going after school. That way, I would'nt get busted and people would think I was playing hookie.


I don't think either side is going to "win" in this debate. It seems no matter what you do, someone will always have an opinion.