Another week, another shooting

[BadPinkTink]

I just checked Amendments to the USA Constitution.

Ireland Constitution : 1937
Amendments : 37
Last Amendment : 2018

USA Constitution : 1791
Amendments: 27
Last Amendment : 1992

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

The thing about mental health is that many people don’t know they, or their loved ones ARE mentally ill... And even if they do, it being diagnosed/documented is a different issue. Not only that but the spectrum of mental illnesses is so vast it would be hard to draw the line as to who is fit and who isn’t fit to own a firearm. There has to be a more universal way to strengthen regulations and laws, it can’t depend such a subjective criteria.

 

[Hikergirl]

I knew about some kind of cursory background screen, not the mental health bit, but again, people lie every day, and hell, lots of people think they are perfectly sane that aren't. Sometimes I reckon we're all a little insane.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure the questions are specific about the 2 categories that prohibit you from owning. I filled one out a few years ago so I don' remember exactly. You do have to fill it out every single time you purchase a firearm, they don't keep one on file forever.
And as far as I know there is no national database for those people, and states aren't required to report to any kind of agency about it.

 

[GreatLakes]

Yes, because it's for the safety of the populace. Just like how your 1st Amendment Right to freedom of speech doesn't allow you to incite a riot. And you can't create art that involves harming other people. Or commit slander or liable. Or threaten violence.

Those are universal limitations on the right, not a removal of a right due to mental illness. I'm talking about stripping away a right completely because someone is mentally Ill. The equivelant would be you are not allowed to have any speech at all because you are mentally Ill, not that you can't commit specific crimes that are crimes for everyone.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Also for comparison and fairness here is the link to the gun licence application form for Ireland

https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/On...ertificate-Application-Version-April-2015.pdf

maybe those who are familiar with obtaining a gun in America would like to compare and contrast and give us an idea of things which are different and things which are the same

 

[Hikergirl]

Also for comparison and fairness here is the link to the gun licence application form for Ireland

https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/On...ertificate-Application-Version-April-2015.pdf

maybe those who are familiar with obtaining a gun in America would like to compare and contrast and give us an idea of things which are different and things which are the same

It differs from state to state here, you don't need a permit to own a rifle or shotgun (maybe in some states though I'm not sure)
I don't recall exactly what it was like but it was a basic questionnaire asking about my citizenship, criminal history and some mental health questions about being institutionalized. It isn't a permit, it is just a background check form and has to be filled out any time you purchase one.

In my state you need a permit for a handgun, and it is way more involved. I do not have a permit but my dh does, he had to get 4 notarized references, had to be finger printed and some other things on top of filling out the form which was probably like the one you posted.
You also don't just walk into a store and pick up a gun, you have to submit a form to the sheriffs office with the firearm's serial number on it and it has to be approved by the judge and added to your permit. When is you can pick up your firearm.
County by county also differs, some you need to take a safety course, others you don't (you don't in mine).
Some states you don't even need a permit.

 

[lifesavacation]

there are many many countries in the world where this is not a fact of life. Its only in America that it is seen as a fact of life. Its only when I travel to America that I worry about this risk. In the country I live in and in the 9 countries I have visited this risk is not a fact of life.

True. We went to Africa this summer and my dad was worried about our safety. I tried telling him parts of the US are way more dangerous than where we traveled.
http://visionofhumanity.org/indexes/global-peace-index/
https://safearound.com/danger-rankings/

 

[jerseygal]

I watched heart wrenching television coverage about a Dad who was waiting on the news about his 22 year old son this morning, Cory. This Dad had 2 other younger sons and was awaiting the birth of a daughter end of this month. Very very sadly he was interviewed later this afternoon and received the grim news that his son was amongst the deceased. He said that his son was so looking forward to the birth of his new sister being born. Prayers for all those affected by this horrific tragedy!

 

[BadPinkTink]

thanks @Hikergirl
ok, so heres the changes as I see it

1. All firearms need a permit / licence

• Airgun
• Crossbow
• Revolver
• Rifle
• Pistol
• Shotgun
• Air Pistol
• Air Rifle
• Bot Action
• Breach Loading
• Double Barrel
• Lever Action
• Pump Action
• Repeater
• Semi Auto
• Shotgun and Rifle Combined
• Single Barrel

2. Permit and Licence granting is controlled by Federal Law so that all States are equal and there is one rule for all, no matter which State you live in

Now I have no idea how workable this is or how realistic this is, BUT at least it would be a start, something more than thoughts and prayers and the endless cycle of too soon, too soon, we need to mourn the dead, lets think about this later, oh dear another shootting, thoughts and prayers.... rinse and repeat

 

[longboard55]

thanks @Hikergirl
ok, so heres the changes as I see it

1. All firearms need a permit / licence

• Airgun
• Crossbow
• Revolver
• Rifle
• Pistol
• Shotgun
• Air Pistol
• Air Rifle
• Bot Action
• Breach Loading
• Double Barrel
• Lever Action
• Pump Action
• Repeater
• Semi Auto
• Shotgun and Rifle Combined
• Single Barrel

2. Permit and Licence granting is controlled by Federal Law so that all States are equal and there is one rule for all, no matter which State you live in

Now I have no idea how workable this is or how realistic this is, BUT at least it would be a start, something more than thoughts and prayers and the endless cycle of too soon, too soon, we need to mourn the dead, lets think about this later, oh dear another shootting, thoughts and prayers.... rinse and repeat

Canada seems to have very reasonable laws that protect hunters and penalize the no good, they seem to work well

 

[NotUrsula]

My feeling about the 2d Amendment and the intent of the Framers is that since it was ratified in 1791, it makes logical sense to go with a compromise that allows that all firearms that use no technology that did not exist in 1791 may remain fully free from legal restriction. Firearms that use later technologies should legitimately be subject to certain forms of regulation for reasons of public safety.

It is not possible to go on a high-casualty shooting spree with 1791-era weapons technology. The fastest load speed it is possible to achieve with a muzzle-loader is about 3 rounds per minute, and the ammunition is a ball, which is much less lethal than a cartridge.

(Weapons with multiple-round load capacity did exist in 1791, but they were specialized models, hand-crafted and almost vanishingly rare. That technology is still insanely expensive to use even today, which in turn makes it very unlikely that anyone would use a replica to try to go on a shooting spree. No solution that has any chance of satisfying the demands of the various interests involved in the US is going to be a perfect one, but doing something is surely better than doing nothing.)

 

[GreatLakes]

My feeling about the 2d Amendment and the intent of the Framers is that since it was ratified in 1791, it makes logical sense to go with a compromise that allows that all firearms that use no technology that did not exist in 1791 may remain fully free from legal restriction. Firearms that use later technologies should legitimately be subject to certain forms of regulation for reasons of public safety.

It is not possible to go on a high-casualty shooting spree with 1791-era weapons technology. The fastest load speed it is possible to achieve with a muzzle-loader is about 3 rounds per minute, and the ammunition is a ball, which is much less lethal than a cartridge.

(Weapons with multiple-round load capacity did exist in 1791, but they were specialized models, hand-crafted and almost vanishingly rare. That technology is still insanely expensive to use even today, which in turn makes it very unlikely that anyone would use a replica to try to go on a shooting spree. No solution that has any chance of satisfying the demands of the various interests involved in the US is going to be a perfect one, but doing something is surely better than doing nothing.)

In that case we need to do the same with all the amendments, not just the 2nd. You are only free to worship religions that existed at that time, have speech using technology that existed at that time (so no free speech over electronic media), the government doesn't need a warrant for cell phones since they didn't exist at that time.

The bottom line is the 2nd amendment rights need to be treated the same as the rest of our rights, not more strictly controlled. The 2nd amendment should be as automatic as the 1st, 4th, 14th, etc and as difficult to lose as the rest. You aren't stripped of these rights rasily nor are people asking for these rights to be as tightly controlled as they do with the 2nd.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Because no mass shooting is ever an accident.

Plenty of car crashes are not accidents either - they're negligence. And really, whether accidental or intentional is irrelevant. The point was that just like a car crash, there is just no way to predict or prevent these kind of tragedies - at least in the USA. So just enjoy life while you can, take reasonable precautions - like try to not go to any churches or other places of worship, concerts, grocery stores, libraries, schools, airports, museums, malls, food courts, restaurants, offices, etc, and hope it doesn't happen to you or anyone you care about. Oh, and if you don't have to travel to the USA, do not travel to the USA.

 

[longboard55]

Plenty of car crashes are not accidents either - they're negligence. And really, whether accidental or intentional is irrelevant. The point was that just like a car crash, there is just no way to predict or prevent these kind of tragedies - at least in the USA. So just enjoy life while you can, take reasonable precautions - like try to not go to any churches or other places of worship, concerts, grocery stores, libraries, schools, airports, museums, malls, food courts, restaurants, offices, etc, and hope it doesn't happen to you or anyone you care about. Oh, and if you don't have to travel to the USA, do not travel to the USA.

In the 60s we started a program of auto safety, seat belts, air bags, crash design, education and harsher drunk driving laws. It reduced the rate of automobile deaths by a huge amount, something like 75%. So yes we can do something, just something as simple as the making large capacity magazines illegal would have saved half those lives. The problem is we do nothing.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

The bottom line is the 2nd amendment rights need to be treated the same as the rest of our rights, not more strictly controlled. The 2nd amendment should be as automatic as the 1st, 4th, 14th, etc and as difficult to lose as the rest. You aren't stripped of these rights rasily nor are people asking for these rights to be as tightly controlled as they do with the 2nd.

2A is already more strictly controlled than some of the other amendments. So are you in favor that those restrictions should be removed and we should all be able to own RPGs, grenades, landmines, and more? There has already been a line drawn on the limits of 2A. The question is where exactly that line should be.

 

[longboard55]

In that case we need to do the same with all the amendments, not just the 2nd. You are only free to worship religions that existed at that time, have speech using technology that existed at that time (so no free speech over electronic media), the government doesn't need a warrant for cell phones since they didn't exist at that time.

The bottom line is the 2nd amendment rights need to be treated the same as the rest of our rights, not more strictly controlled. The 2nd amendment should be as automatic as the 1st, 4th, 14th, etc and as difficult to lose as the rest. You aren't stripped of these rights rasily nor are people asking for these rights to be as tightly controlled as they do with the 2nd.

To maintain a militia, those are the words, lets stick to that and quit making up exceptions. There is nothing about everyone gets one.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

In the 60s we started a program of auto safety, seat belts, air bags, crash design, education and harsher drunk driving laws. It reduced the rate of automobile deaths by a huge amount, something like 75%. So yes we can do something, just something as simple as the making large capacity magazines illegal would have saved half those lives. The problem is we do nothing.

Sure, there are plenty of things that COULD be done, however collectively our country has decided NOT to do any of those things. And that's not going to change, ever. So yes, this is just the new normal and we might as well get used to it and treat this like any other random unpredictable, unpreventable tragedy.

 

[Hikergirl]

In the 60s we started a program of auto safety, seat belts, air bags, crash design, education and harsher drunk driving laws. It reduced the rate of automobile deaths by a huge amount, something like 75%. So yes we can do something, just something as simple as the making large capacity magazines illegal would have saved half those lives. The problem is we do nothing.

Large capacity magazines are illegal in CA. It didn't stop this guy from using one.

 

[longboard55]

Large capacity magazines are illegal in CA. It didn't stop this guy from using one.

the people voted to ban them, a judge over ruled. Now they are not for sale but you can own one

 

[jrmasm]

Plenty of car crashes are not accidents either - they're negligence. And really, whether accidental or intentional is irrelevant. The point was that just like a car crash, there is just no way to predict or prevent these kind of tragedies - at least in the USA. So just enjoy life while you can, take reasonable precautions - like try to not go to any churches or other places of worship, concerts, grocery stores, libraries, schools, airports, museums, malls, food courts, restaurants, offices, etc, and hope it doesn't happen to you or anyone you care about. Oh, and if you don't have to travel to the USA, do not travel to the USA.

No mass shooting is an accident. It’s a completely relevant fact.

And it would be a little difficult for me to not to travel in in US since I live here. I go about my life, go where I want and I don’t live in fear. I even drive a car even though I’m more likely to die doing that.

I’m also not numb to these incidents. Every incident deeply saddens me and enrages me that nothing is being to prevent them. It’s a total cop out to say nothing can be done in US.