Another Visa Waiver Question

[alisonbestford]

Hi there,

I know this question has been asked over and over, albeit in different forms, but I'd appreciate some views please.
Myself, DD (age 6) and DH have a family holiday booked to Florida in January 2005.

When DH was 20 (he's now 37) he got into a fight with his friend over a girlfriend, took himself to the police station the next day to own up and was given a one year conditional discharge for ABH.
We've travelled to the US 3 times in the past 5 years, always ticking the 'no' box on the green visa waiver form as he thought the incident was 'spent'.

After reading about the extra security checks in the US I've started worrying about whether he should apply for a visa.

If at all possible I'd like to avoid having to do this as DH has a brain tumour (he's had it for 14 years) and, although stable, is quite simply not well enough to endure a 240 mile round trip to the Embassy in London where he may have to sit around for 3 or 4 hours waiting for an interview!

As his registered carer I should be able to gain admittance to the Embassy with him but I'm concerned as he tires very easily and a normal day is only a few hours long.

We anonymously rang the Embassy to see if he could apply by post but he was just told that he would have to attend and was given a ticking off for ticking the wrong box in the past!!

I'm torn between him ticking the green form as he has previously or putting him through a rather strenuous, stressful weekend (we'd have to stay in London overnight) if it's unnecessary. Then again, I'm a worryer so neither do I want to be panicking that he'll be turned away at the airport


Before anyone asks how he can possibly cope with travelling to WDW if he tires so easily, he spends most of his time in the hotel room and we meet up in the late afternoon, communicating by mobile phone throughout the day. We also have friends in Orlando who allow him to 'chill' at their house.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Alison

 

[AndRu]

I've taken this excerpt from the US Embassy web site:

Important: Some travelers may not be eligible to enter the United States visa free under the VWP. These include people who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, those with criminal records, (the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law), certain serious communicable illnesses, those who have been refused admission into, or have been deported from, the United States, or have previously overstayed on the visa waiver program. Such travelers must apply for special restricted visas. If they attempt to travel without a visa, they may be refused entry into the United States.

Unfortunately, I think you probably need to apply for a VISA. Thee have been some horror stories in the media (Tonight With Trevor MacDonald and The Guardian) where innocent people and those that have commited the most trivial offences have been refused entry to the US by immigration officials.

After what you've mentioned, I think it would be prudent to get checked by the US Embassy in London, make a weekend of it?, and get a VISA that should smooth the road into the USA. It'd be awful to get to the US and then be refused entry.

I am personally worried sick about the whole thing even though neither my wife or I have any criminal records. All it needs (as Cat Stevens found out yesterday) that if your name is on an immigration watch list, you won't get into the country. Who knows what information about arrest or criminal records has been passed by the UK authorities to their American counterparts? We don't know if any data they do supply is correct - maybe I worry too much ?

Best bet, in my opinion, would be to arrange a visit to the embassy and get things sorted, if only as piece of mind for both of you.

 

[Celestine]

If you plan on visiting the US frequently, I'd apply for a 5 year visa - at least then you won't have to go the same rigmoral again. I agree with AndRu - the press coverage has shown many of those weren't treated particularly well when refused entry & I personally wouldn't like to take the risk

 

[wilkolo]

There's a load of hogwash spoken about this on various boards. yeh we know the official position. Fact is that you've got in before ticking no and if you do it again you'll get in again.

How on earth are they going to find out about the previous conviction.

Yeh, technically illegal, but whats the worst they can do - deport you.

 

[AndRu]

Originally posted by wilkolo
Yeh, technically illegal, but whats the worst they can do - deport you.

I'd like to point you to the link I made in my previous post from The Guardian. The story of this journalist has been repeated at US airports where innocent people have been arrested, handcuffed (even shackled), imprisoned, interrogated and humiliated before being deported back to their country of origin.

As for 'how would they know about previous convictions?', just think about how much information is currently on file about each and everyone of us on databases. After 9/11 the UK and US governments agreed to share more information to help try and ensnare the bad guys. As the US now won't let in anyone with a criminal conviction (or even an arrest without a conviction), they must be able to track this information.

How difficult would it be for an airline computer system to look at a name, address and passport number of people travelling and compare them to a Home Office database of people that have ever been arrested? It's not that hard - all they'd need is access to view the HO database and they'd be able to put a black mark against your name when you land. Sure, there are worse things that could happen - but do you really want to take the risk when, if you follow the rules they've stipulated post 9/11, a VISA will help get you in? Is deportation an acceptable solution to you? How about asking Cat Stevens that question?

You might say I'm worrying too much but we should all abide by the new rules. To ignore them and 'hope for the best', in my opinion, is not the most sensible course of action.

 

[Celestine]

Given that all our data is sent to the US authorities whilst we're flying - that gives them at least 9 hours to run checks on us - it takes about 30s to run a check for previous convictions given that they have all the data off your passport - I'd say not worth the risk. Once refused they'll never let you back in is my gut feeling.

 

[alisonbestford]

Thank you to everyone for your input.
We'd actually already written to the courts for a 'Memorandum of Conviction' as the Embassy suggested.
They rang back today to say that there was absolutely no record of DH having had a charge against him and that they would put a letter stating this in the post. We should just pack it when we travel.
Phew.
I think the whole thing is absolutely ridiculous as, IMHO, it's the criminals who've never actually been caught doing anything wrong who are the ones more likely to cause trouble
Anyway, thank you again. Hopefully we're sorted now.
Alison

 

[uktigger]

i wonder if someone could help with my query,my cousin's husband has a conviction for criminal damage in may(he smashed someones car window in temper)anyway he had to go to the us embassy today and was refused a visa and his passport was stamped to say they are upset is an understatement anyway him and his parents are irish and he was told by a friend that he could apply for an irish passport and trying if he will be allowed to gain entry that way but my feeling is that they will still have all his details and it is too risky and he would still be sent back home
what would your veiws be on this? is it worth the risk?

thanks eve

 

[alisonbestford]

What an awful thing to have happened
We all lose our temper at times and it's so easy for something like this to happen.
I'd imagine, like you, that, as the Embassy have already refused him a visa, they'd have his name etc on record. Even if he went in on an Irish visa I agree he'd be taking an enormous risk.
I have no idea really but hope someone can offer some positive advice. Somehow DisneyLand Paris doesn't hold the same appeal as Florida
Alison

 

[uktigger]

thank you alison for taking the time to answer me and my cousin went to the travel agents today and she said that he had nothing to lose and to go for it,but in the same breath said she cannot advise her on what to do
to cancel her husband off the package they would lose 90% of the holiday cost or they could have the name on the ticket changed to her daughter's but that would cost my cousin another £1195 to do so it is an awfull position to be in

eve

 

[Claddagh]

Hi Eve,

I have an Irish passport. It used to be that if your parents were Irish you were automatically entitled to an Irish passport, however, I have a feeling that the law has changed and you have to have been born/lived in Ireland for so many years prior to applying for a passport. Sorry I can't remember the exact details but I am sure if you check with the Irish Embassy they will be able to tell you. Regardless, it would be a chance, IMHO that he would take. I suppose it depends on whether it is the passport number or the name and date of birth that flags him up on the computer to the immigration people. If it's the passport number he is sorted, obviously his Irish one would be different but if it is name and date of birth they may start asking questions and that could mean bigger trouble.

I really feel that the US Immigration people have shot themselves in the foot with these new laws. Many people have had minor indescretions with the law after which they have never been in trouble again. It is a fact of life. Surely while the US is being so stringent about smaller crimes, they are giving the real troublemakers free reign!

I hope your cousin gets things sorted out.

 

[uktigger]

claddagh
his parents are both irish but i'm not sure if he was born or lived over there i do agree with you that they would more than likely have all his details on their records i'm not really sure what they will do in the end
my dh has said with the US acting like this that it is really going to put people off going to the states

thanks for your help

eve

 

[alisonbestford]

Wow Eve,
that sounds like an awfuly expensive ticket change I'd have thought it would be a simple £25 or whatever for a name change!
Given the circumstances I guess I'd be too worried to risk trying to get into the US. I know it's not at all what they had planned but can they not exchange their holiday, to a different destination, within the same travel operator for a small fee?
Saying he has nothing to lose seems a bit daft really - surely, if he gets turned away, everyone on the holiday will lose out? It doesn't sound as though the travel agent was being particularly helpful - or is it simply that they are due to travel very soon?
Good luck.
Alison

 

[uktigger]

alison
we are all going on the 11th october,we are travelling with virgin and booked with virgin holidays but my cousin booked with thomas cook signature but is flying virgin and her TA thought that it should be just an admin charge to change the details but was told otherwise over the phone i have told my cousin that i will try and phone thom cooks head office and see if anything can be done she didn't mind paying for the name change on the ticket but £1195 is a bit much
i get back tomorrow and let you all know the outcome
thanks again for your help

eve

 

[GO2209]

It sounds like a restricted ticket. Often scheduled tickets bought in specific fare types prevent transfer to another passenger. In which case, the ticket can be cancelled and rebooked n a new category and at a new price. However, this close to departure you may lose practically the entire ticket value - plus, 'last minute' scheduled tickets can be very, very expensive.

 

[liferiley]

hi anyone help with my problem?

i got barred from a pub in orlando the last time i went.i was issued a trespass warning by the local police although i wasnt arrested.will this show up on my records?it was a minor incident.holiday booked for febuary so i guess i should find out.

thanks in advance, lifer

 

[wilkolo]

Originally posted by AndRu
I'd like to point you to the link I made in my previous post from The Guardian. The story of this journalist has been repeated at US airports where innocent people have been arrested, handcuffed (even shackled), imprisoned, interrogated and humiliated before being deported back to their country of origin.
....

How difficult would it be for an airline computer system to look at a name, address and passport number of people travelling and compare them to a Home Office database of people that have ever been arrested? ...

The answer is almost impossible

The point about the Guardian journalist is that he told them what he was doing as soon as he landed.

As for Home Office database of people that have been arrested...

There isn't one and if there was the Yanks wouldn't have access to it anyway.

 

[gavvy]

Quote

"As for Home Office database of people that have been arrested...

There isn't one and if there was the Yanks wouldn't have access to it anyway."

Take a look at www.disclosure.gov.uk
They run the home office computer that holds all data regarding any arrest or detention by the police- many employers use this information when you apply for a new job with children or the elderly- im sure if they can gain access there wont be much of aproblem with the USA INS getting hold of it.

You can get away with going and not applying for a visa- but would you really want to risk your name flagging on their computer and running the risk of never being able to enter the USA again?

 

[Celestine]

For the person querying the Irish bit, having worked abroad for the UK Immigration, the passport you use will not make an iota of difference to you being refused - the checks are done on name & DOB & I'm sure they're probably wise to dual nationals trying to do just that. I've no idea how the US system works, but if someone was refused a visa for the UK, they were given a written report detailing why they had been refused (I was in this job 5 years ago so things may have moved on)

 

[AndRu]

wilkolo,

I don't believe in conspiracy theories but after many years working in the IT sector I know how easy it is to compare information on one database to that on another. Seeing as the UK and US governments are proud of their 'Shoulder-to-Shoulder' and 'Special Relationship' stance, I firmly believe that access would have been granted to view records on our databases.

With this in mind, and as other have pointed out, why take the risk of travelling all the way to the US to be turned away at the airport?

Whether we like it or not, the American authorities have brought in these rules and we should abide by them. Yes, you might get away with entering the country without a VISA but its not a risk I would want to take.