Another Thunder Mt. Crash

[DisneyFanGuy]

Trains getting stuck or "valleying" (not having enough momentum to get up a hill, leaving the train at the bottom of the dip) happens sometimes. These trains are gravity driven on very sophisticated layouts. I have seen pictures of trains stuck on the top of a loop. I know that's a rare, but not unheard of, issue.

Two trains running into each other should not happen. Ever. That's what all of these brake zones are all about. A big, multiple train attraction that has that happen has something very serious wrong with the design. A brake zone that malfunctions completely might cause this. With all of the redundant systems built in for safety, that is so rare that you never hear about it happening. Because a brake zone would have to malfunction during a shut down situation. It's much more common to hear about a wheel coming off, or a restraint breaking, or a train getting stuck. And even that stuff is pretty rare.

But this thing on BTM doesn't fit any of those scenarios. This was two trains hitting each other during normal operations. Imagine if they had some real momentum going. We would be talking about multiple fatalities maybe. Those trains, with passengers, are very heavy. And now this has happened twice, when Disney has assured us that everything is functioning perfectly. This is the best that this ride is capable of operating. Doesn't that scare the heck out of you?

The two trains hitting each other during a shutdown reset? A poorly trained CM put the ride into manual mode, and did not follow proper procedures. We have inproperly trained employees running the ride like Gomez Addams playing with his train set. Ask youself, if Disney was taking this all as seriously as they should, then why would an employee be allowed to do this if they were not trained properly? Why would they be anywhere near the controls?

These are real symptoms of a real problem. I am telling you, if Disney reopens that ride without any changes in what they are doing, then we are going to have another incident and somebody may get killed. It's not going to be me. And I think its symptomatic of how they are running things in general out at the DLR. Whether it's training, the use of inexperienced Leads, regular and complete maintenance, or a combo of everything, they have a problem.

It affects them more because they are open 365 days a year. Those rides never get any real "down time". Rehabs are posponed because they want the attractions up during the busier times. And they build more complex attractions which require more attention. High attendance requires that they work to move more people through those things more quickly. That's why, when they change procedures to reduce costs, that the long term consequences are all a real unknown.

I am not freaking out over two trains bumping. It's the fact that it's the third accident in a year. On top of Space Mountain cars derailing, and that poor kid in the Roger Rabbit ride (which has never been fully explained), and the person killed by that cleat which was entirely a training issue, and my own experiences in the last few years watching the place get dirtier. I give the internet sites and the Disney "watchdogs" a ton of credit because if people like Al Lutz weren't around posting pictures then things would be even worse.

The only way to influence a big company is to inflict pain. Tremendous pain. Go to Knotts and write a letter to Disney letting them know how much you enjoyed your day there. Matt O seems like he knows what is going on. He needs ammo to make a lasting difference.

By the way, I still love Disney. I will be at WDW in 4 weeks riding Mission Space.

 

[DukeStreetKing]

Originally posted by DisneyFanGuy


Disney blew this badly. They have lost my business at the DL resort. I bet that attendance drops like a stone out there because I cannot be the only person who is angry.

I don't know about the attendance dropping. If I didn't read this thread on this board, I would not have heard of this latest problem with this ride. Granted, I don't live in Disneyland's backyard, so maybe the local news reported it more heavily, but I do read the major news sites and saw nothing regarding this accident. I'm guessing the majority of people who enter DL's gates might not know anything about this accident.

 

[Chuck S]

Go to Knotts and write a letter to Disney letting them know how much you enjoyed your day there.

You're kidding, right? You mean the Park that was sold by the Knott heirs to Cedar Point, who then proceeded to rip out everything of any historical significance and build roller coaster after roller coaster? Where's the panning for gold, the Walter Knott Steak House, the park bakery, everything that made the park special and unique?

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by DisneyFanGuy I believed Disney when they said that the first and second weren't related.

It's not just taking Disney's word for it, we have CA OSHA's response on the first two incidents as well. How about we wait for the result of the investigation on this third incident before we draw conclusions about the cause?

From the CA OSHA report on the first, fatal accident:

They both stated that the staffing had been adequate, even though the crew that normally consisted of 7 had consisted of 6 at the time of the accident. In my review of the duties of the outside machinists, I concluded that they were correct in their judgment...

I also concluded that, overall, the procedures for maintenance of the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, if followed, were generally more than adequate...

There is no evidence that the design of the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad attraction is unsafe..."

 

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by DisneyFanGuy
The only way to influence a big company is to inflict pain. Tremendous pain. Go to Knotts and write a letter to Disney letting them know how much you enjoyed your day there.

I don't understand how that will help. The problem that you're fighting here has nothing to do with whether or not your day at Disneyland was fun, does it? It has to do with feeling unsafe and wondering about maintenance on other rides. You might inflict a momentary twinge by telling someone you're having more fun at Knott's (if, indeed you ARE having more fun at Knott's and you've done your homework to stay off the rides in THAT park that have inflicted injury), but telling someone you're having more fun somewhere else doesn't automatically make them think about ride safety. "Gee ... DisneyFanGuy is having more fun at Knott's. We'd better really improve our maintenance planning." The two don't link.

Instead, try writing to Disney and telling them that you love Disneyland and would love to visit again, but you're worried about safety after the recent (third) Thunder Mountain accident, and you won't bring your family there again until there are some assurances that they'll be safe. Not only on that ride, but on all the others. THAT lets them connect the dots. THAT's when they say, "Gee ... DisneyFanGuy doesn't think it's safe here and he won't come back until it is. We'd better do something to fix that."

 

[airlarry!]

DB, isn't it also fair to characterize it even simper?

Whether by operational malfunction, lack of maintenance, or human error, the same attraction has had a serious accident three times in recent memory.

I would never, ever make light of any incident that causes physical damage to the structure of a ride vehicle, or causes physical injury to any person.

I would define unexpected whiplash to a minor child as physical injury.

DB, when you walk through the turnstiles at WDW and DL, do you not expect that there exists a system of checks and balances so that even if any of the above three fail, there is something that protects injury and damage?

Do you not expect that your ride on BTMRR to be free from worry that the failure of any one of the above will cause you injury?

I know some people hate to bring the Dead Guy into the discussion, but what would Walt do if he were around and there were three separate incidents resulting in injury or damage?

You may choose to look at each invidual incident and chalk it up, for one reason or another, as insignificant, and that's okay, I guess. But, there is another side. There have been a number of recent incidents that circumstantially point to the validation of warnings that cuts in maintenance and manpower will result in injury to property or persons.

Sitting behind this little laptop a thousand miles away is a bad vantage point to know the every day workings of both the executive suites in Burbank, and the maintenance shops and employee breakrooms in LBV and Anaheim. But from this vantage point, all the people who cried wolf now seem to be correct.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by airlarry! ...I would never, ever make light of any incident that causes physical damage to the structure of a ride vehicle, or causes physical injury to any person.

Nor would I, and I have not done so, have I?

I would define unexpected whiplash to a minor child as physical injury...

As would I, of course.

I know some people hate to bring the Dead Guy into the discussion, but what would Walt do if he were around and there were three separate incidents resulting in injury or damage?

I don't know, what do you think? As to the current situation, I assume that Disney will look at the results of the investigation and remedy whatever flaw is determined to have caused the problem, as they did in the first two incidents.

You may choose to look at each invidual incident and chalk it up, for one reason or another, as insignificant, and that's okay, I guess.

Where have I done that? All I have done is point out the findings as to the causes of each incident, and suggested that we wait to see the results of the investigation on the most recent accident before drawing conclusions.

But, there is another side. There have been a number of recent incidents that circumstantially point to the validation of warnings that cuts in maintenance and manpower will result in injury to property or persons.

You can rely on your anecdotal "circumstantial" evidence, and I'll rely on the results of the independent investigations.

Sitting behind this little laptop a thousand miles away is a bad vantage point to know the every day workings of both the executive suites in Burbank, and the maintenance shops and employee breakrooms in LBV and Anaheim. But from this vantage point, all the people who cried wolf now seem to be correct.

How so? CA OSHA said the fatal accident was not result of lower staffing levels or poor maintenance procedures (including the schedule for replacing parts), but poor execution by the maintenance personnel. Where is the evidence that supports the connection between chipping paint and burnt-out lightbulbs on Main Street and these incidents?

I certainly hope the Company is smart enough to take corrective actions based on the results of the investigations and not internet rumors.

Somebody earlier on this thread suggested they need to shut down and completely redesign the ride. Why? The findings thus far have been that the design is not the problem. Why take a design that has been proven to work over many years (if properly maintained and operated) and create a new design which might have flaws you would only discover later?

 

[airlarry!]

(The comments regarding the incidents and impact were not directed at you, DB).

I won't pretend that either view is more or less correct. I agree that the design for Big Thunder is not the problem, and should not be replaced.

But DB, have they really done what you say Walt would have? Have they taken steps to eliminate the first problem? You say in specific one is maintenance, the other is operational. Nope. They are both HUMAN ERROR, and someway, somehow there has to be a check for that. A backup, a failsafe, etc.

You do admit that the first two accidents were human error, right? Well, then is it so hard to connect the dots that budget cuts might have led to an environment of human error?

How are we, and in fact OSHA for that matter, to know whether or not the training methods have been affected by budget cuts? How do we know that OSHA is correct in asserting that one less worker did not affect the first accident?

I cannot prove to a reasonable certainty that Pre$$ler's infamous budget cuts, and Ei$ner's stated "10/10" goal directly caused these three accidents.

But I will tell you what. I am not about to say that three incidents such as these in one year is mere happenstance, circumstance, bad luck, a bad run of cards, coincidental, just one of those things...or any other euphemistic excuse.

Once? Coincidence.

Twice? My eyebrow is raised.

Thrice? Hmm......maybe the supposed "Disnidiots" and "rumormongers" weren't so off when they ridiculed T Irby and Paul Pre$$ler.

I know deep down inside there is a little Voice of doubt that worries you.

 

[dcentity2000]

Whilst it is true that the same ride has fallen foul of the same hazard three times in recent memory and it would indeed not be fair too make light of the numbers, it is still unfair to give weight to each incident in equal amounts. The first inccident was the worst but was put down to human error - this can be attributed in a negative way to any ride, anywhere in the world. The second was due to a manual override being used, seemingly, past the safe extent to which it may be and the third is the one that we should be worried about.

Each occurance was individually reviewed by an appropriate and professional board.



Rich::

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by airlarry!

But DB, have they really done what you say Walt would have?

I didn't offer any guess as to what Walt would have done.

Have they taken steps to eliminate the first problem?

CA OSHA thought so, according to this news story from the March reopening:

Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad ride reopened Wednesday afternoon, immediately after state officials signed off on safety improvements ordered in the aftermath of a fatal accident last September.

Park spokeswoman Sondra Haley said the California Division of Occupational Safety and Health conducted an inspection, which "verified that we had complied with the corrective actions that had been issued in their report back in November."

"They saw no safety hazards and put the attraction back in our hands," she said.

Cal-OSHA's Dean Fryer said the inspection process began Monday, after Disney signaled it was ready for re-inspection, and ended Wednesday.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2913525/detail.html

You say in specific one is maintenance, the other is operational. Nope. They are both HUMAN ERROR, and someway, somehow there has to be a check for that. A backup, a failsafe, etc.

There was a check built into maintenance procedures that should have prevented the first accident, but the procedures were not followed. The corrective actions prescribed by CA OSHA included refinement and training regarding that check.

Re the second incident, according to the CA OSHA official I quoted above, it couldn't have happened with passengers on board.

You do admit that the first two accidents were human error, right? Well, then is it so hard to connect the dots that budget cuts might have led to an environment of human error?

That would certainly be an issue to look at. But the CA OSHA report on the fatal accident said staffing was sufficient, and procedures (including the schedule of replacing parts, something which folks on this board have floated as a problem) were more than adequate.

How are we, and in fact OSHA for that matter, to know whether or not the training methods have been affected by budget cuts? How do we know that OSHA is correct in asserting that one less worker did not affect the first accident?

You can choose to accept the results of the official investigation or not, but it is their job, and it certainly appeared to be a thorough report.

I cannot prove to a reasonable certainty that Pre$$ler's infamous budget cuts, and Ei$ner's stated "10/10" goal directly caused these three accidents.

But I will tell you what. I am not about to say that three incidents such as these in one year is mere happenstance, circumstance, bad luck, a bad run of cards, coincidental, just one of those things...or any other euphemistic excuse.

I'm not making any excuses. There were obviously problems that caused these incidents that needed to be addressed. I'm just saying there does not yet appear to be any evidence that ties this to Pressler or Eisner's budget cuts.

 

[crusader]

You do admit that the first two accidents were human error, right? Well, then is it so hard to connect the dots that budget cuts might have led to an environment of human error?

Human error has nothing to do with money. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this particular attraction was neglected in staffing and training when it reopened following the first tragedy.

There's something more inherently wrong here.

 

[KNWVIKING]

This thread has followed it's normal course for this board so far. One side is that Disney isn't doing enough, the other side is "let's wait and see". I personally am on the "wait and see" side.

My questions to the other side are: How do you correct human error ? Do you put two CM's at every position, one to always back up the other ? Do you hire M.I.T. graduates and pay them accordingly because you hope you're getting a better employee ? See, I don't know how you can avoid human error and doubt Disney or any other business does either.

How do you prevent software glitches ? Ask people who write code. They'll tell you it's impossible. You run every scenerio you can imagine to verify your software works, and then something you never thought of happens and a "glitch" occurs. Once the glitch happens, the scenerio can be analyized & new code can correct the problem and all is well until the next freak occurance.

But the real question is: Do you think Disney isn't trying to correct & prevent this from happening ? Because sometimes that's the impression I get from reading the posts. That Disney is trying so hard to squeeze another buck out of the parks that they're not willing to spend whatever it takes to prevent human error & glitches.

 

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by airlarry!
You do admit that the first two accidents were human error, right? Well, then is it so hard to connect the dots that budget cuts might have led to an environment of human error?

I cannot prove to a reasonable certainty that Pre$$ler's infamous budget cuts, and Ei$ner's stated "10/10" goal directly caused these three accidents.

But then again, if budget cuts are the fundamental cause, why ONLY Thunder Mountain? Other rides at DL and WDW are as old, or older, than Thunder Mountain, so why are all of these things happening there and nowhere else? I don't doubt that budget cuts are a contributing factor, but there's more going on there than just "an environment of human error."

 

[Bstanley]

How do you prevent software glitches ? Ask people who write code. They'll tell you it's impossible.

Obviously there is mission-critical software in all kinds of hardware from pacemakers to 747 flight controls that had better not have glitches that cause the system to malfunction (which IS of course a different concept than writing perfect software) - but let's skip that discussion and jump right to the point of interest:

If Disney "knows" that the ride controller has less than perfect code - then how should the overall ride system be designed? IMHO the ride system should be designed such that it is impossible for two trains to occupy the same space at the same time - period. You can get more detailed and say - impossible unless there is a single hardware failure, a double hardware failure, OR a single human error, OR a single human error and a single hardware failure, etc, etc.

If it's true that in this case a single 'software glitch' allowed 2 trains to attempt to occupy the same space at the same time - and the only thing that prevented that from happening was an ALMOST timely intevention by a human operator - then the system is unsafe IMHO - period. In fact the next death becomes simply an exercise in probablility.

Do I believe that Disney, Inc sits around deciding that one crash per 100,000 train launches is an acceptable 'loss rate'? No.

Do I believe that Disney, Inc sets time/monetary goals for maintaining, rebuilding, or developing rides that has an impact on their safety? Absolutely.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Do I believe that Disney, Inc sets time/monetary goals for maintaining, rebuilding, or developing rides that has an impact on their safety? Absolutely."***

As does every other company.

I don't agree with cutbacks that affect safety - nobody would. But I do know - and to a certain point will accept for short term reasons - that maintenance can but cut that doesn't affect safety. Things like not repainting as often, cosmetic issues, reducing the ride rate, etc. My point is that there isn't always a corrolation between cutbacks and safety.

Is there a problem with the ride software ? We don't know. What changed on that ride that would suddenly cause a glitch ? Again, we don't know. Do we have any doubt that Disney isn't pulling their hair out trying to find the cause ? I don't. I don't think this crash has anything to do with money or cutbacks.

 

[lightningcoach]

How about training affecting ride performance? I heard that Disney has taken training programs that usually lasted 2-4 days and dropped them down to 4 hours. I also heard that only the group that was involved in the fatal accident was sent to retraining and not ALL the maintanence and ride operators that run Big Thunder Railroad.

 

[Bstanley]

What happened at BTMRR isn't actually the operative part of this discussion - strange at that sounds after all these pages.

Ages ago - 'when Walt walked the Earth' - everyone from the top dog right on down to the last guy hired at DL was wandering around looking for things to 'fix' - i.e. Walt would leave his infamous notes around the park during his overnight 'inspections'. And because of that - obvious - concern for every detail the very concept that a ride could go wrong because of neglect or thoughtlessness simply never entered people's minds.

But today - after years of watching roofs rot, paint fading away - even an entire ride worn down to the point where it had to be closed unexpectedly, it is - unfortunately - easy to believe that the ATTITUDE that has been fostered by the cutbacks in cosmetic and maintenance activity contributes to every little 'glitch'.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by lightningcoach
I also heard that only the group that was involved in the fatal accident was sent to retraining and not ALL the maintanence and ride operators that run Big Thunder Railroad.

The OSHA Report required:

--Disney retraining of all outside machinists assigned to BTMRR at the time of the accident.

--Disney retraining of all outside machinists assigned to the West Reliability Team at the time of the accident.

--Disney retraining of all assistance managers assigned to the West Reliability Team at the time of the accident.

--Disney retraining of all managers assigned to the West Reliability Team at the time of the accident.

--Amending and implementing new policies on how ride operators should react if they hear an unusual noise.

--Implement policy requiring test run when new cars introduced to the ride.

--Require that only outside machinists who actually performed the work may sign off on that work.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"But today - after years of watching roofs rot, paint fading away - even an entire ride worn down to the point where it had to be closed unexpectedly, it is - unfortunately - easy to believe that the ATTITUDE that has been fostered by the cutbacks in cosmetic and maintenance activity contributes to every little 'glitch'."***

I agree with your statement, but I also believe we're starting to see the pendulum swing back to more "Walt like" days. Only time will tell if the total ATTITUDE changes at Disney.

But even being in agreement with your statement doesn't mean that unforeseeable, unavoidable glitches will not happen. I doubt Walt ever stuck a post-it on a ride that said "hey,better check out the software on ....... ".

Does WDW/DL need a Walt walking around,finding flaws, defects in the show ? Yes they do,and to some extent I believe they still do. But it won't make the park 100% safe.

 

[Bstanley]

My personal opinion is that the folks in the trenches will dot the 'i's if they see that someone is walking around making sure that all the 't's are crossed.

SOoo

I agree that so far the new management's actions give me hope for the future of DL.