Another one fired - Garrison Keillor

[mnrose]

I wonder what's going to happen when it comes out that someone lied and ruined someone's life. There is too many for ALL of them to be telling the truth. One will ruin it for the rest of the ones who are legit telling the truth.

Why do you think that? I worked as an employment lawyer, and investigated (for employers) a whole mess of sexual harassment claims. Never found a one where the woman "made it up." And, that includes some pretty egregious things that were fairly unbelievable at first glance. The truth is that men in positions in power sometimes do some pretty stupid (and unbelievable) things.

 

[bcla]

And in the “old days” most fields were male dominated.

There were always parts of companies that weren't, like secretarial pools. I thought that there was always the stereotype about the lecherous boss making unwanted advances or even unwanted contact with secretaries. I get that some places were different, but as a generality I'm pretty sure this was understood as something that went on and was tolerated because that's the way it was going to be.

 

[Colleen27]

I wonder what's going to happen when it comes out that someone lied and ruined someone's life. There is too many for ALL of them to be telling the truth. One will ruin it for the rest of the ones who are legit telling the truth.

While I remain open to the possibility, I don't think we're yet at a point where we can say there are too many for them ALL to be telling the truth. We've seen, what, a dozen or so high-profile men accused at this point? That doesn't seem implausible, considering the open-end timeframe we're talking about. To say that this is too many for all the accusers to be telling the truth is to say that sexual assault and harassment are rare. It isn't. I know more women who have been touched without consent or made to feel uncomfortable by a sexually-aggressive coworker than those who haven't.

 

[bcla]

Well - if it matters, Garrison Keillor now claims that the only thing he was accused of doing was patting someone on the back when consoling her.

http://www.startribune.com/read-garrison-keillor-s-full-email-to-the-star-tribune/460827763/
I'm doing fine. Getting fired is a real distinction in broadcasting and I've waited fifty years for the honor. All of my heroes got fired. I only wish it could've been for something more heroic. I put my hand on a woman's bare back. I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called. Anyone who ever was around my show can tell you that I was the least physically affection person in the building. Actors hug, musicians hug, people were embracing every Saturday night left and right, and I stood off in the corner like a stone statue. If I had a dollar for every woman who asked to take a selfie with me and who slipped an arm around me and let it drift down below the beltline, I'd have at least a hundred dollars. So this is poetic irony of a high order. But I'm just fine. I had a good long run and am grateful for it and for everything else.​

 

[kdonnel]

Why do you think that? I worked as an employment lawyer, and investigated (for employers) a whole mess of sexual harassment claims. Never found a one where the woman "made it up." And, that includes some pretty egregious things that were fairly unbelievable at first glance. The truth is that men in positions in power sometimes do some pretty stupid (and unbelievable) things.

Two very public examples of lying accusers, while not related to employment, are Tawana Brawley and the Duke Lacrosse players.

 

[Planogirl]

Garrison Keillor's explanation sounds plausible and he has one accuser? I don't like this at all.

 

[Jennasis]

Why should anyone be subjected to sexual jokes, double entendres and unwanted flirting at work? Work is not an appropriate place to pick up dates. I'm glad the "old days" are over.

I met my husband at work.

 

[Planogirl]

I met my husband at work.

Me too.

 

[penn19]

Why should anyone be subjected to sexual jokes, double entendres and unwanted flirting at work? Work is not an appropriate place to pick up dates. I'm glad the "old days" are over.

It’s where I met my husband. And I know plenty of couples who met at work. I guess that’s no longer going to be allowed.

 

[Micca]

DW and I met at work 44 years ago. Gee...I hope I'm not facing any consequences

 

[mnrose]

Two very public examples of lying accusers, while not related to employment, are Tawana Brawley and the Duke Lacrosse players.

Are we pointing out public liars now? I know a bunch we can start with.

Those two cases, as distasteful as they are, do not relate to the current spate of allegations. And, notice in THIS case that Mr. Keillor doesn't even argue that it didn't happen....only that it was misinterpreted. In other words, his hands roamed about 6 inches up her shirt, but he meant it harmlessly. Could be. But, his hand shouldn't have been "under" her shirt. And, why was her shirt "open."

I'm just saying that false allegations of this sort are pretty rare. Does it never happen? No, I won't say that. But, it shouldn't be the first conclusion anyone reaches.

As someone else noted, of the circle of women I know in the workplace, people who've never been harassed are the exception.

 

[DopeyDame]

It’s where I met my husband. And I know plenty of couples who met at work. I guess that’s no longer going to be allowed.

I met my husband at work too. I also work with several married couples as co-workers. Sexual harassment has *nothing* to do with consensual relationships between adults.
Was your first interaction with your now-wife to just walk up and grab her butt? Or to walk around with your robe open and nothing underneath? Or to inconspicuously lock her into your office? No? OK, then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[cabanafrau]

It’s where I met my husband. And I know plenty of couples who met at work. I guess that’s no longer going to be allowed.

I met my husband at work too. I also work with several married couples as co-workers. Sexual harassment has *nothing* to do with consensual relationships between adults.
Was your first interaction with your now-wife to just walk up and grab her butt? Or to walk around with your robe open and nothing underneath? Or to inconspicuously lock her into your office? No? OK, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Companies are bound to get much stricter about inter office romances. It's not always about walking up and grabbing someone's butt. The company is vulnerable to claims of harassment, particularly if the romances end and one or the other claims coercion or professional retaliation by the other.

 

[DopeyDame]

Companies are bound to get much stricter about inter office romances. It's not always about walking up and grabbing someone's butt. The company is vulnerable to claims of harassment, particularly if the romances end and one or the other claims coercion or professional retaliation by the other.

That may be true, but I still think it's very important to clarify that sexual harassment (like rape) really has diddly to do with consensual romantic relationships. It's about power and manipulation.

 

[ronandannette]

I met my husband at work.

Me too.

It’s where I met my husband. And I know plenty of couples who met at work. I guess that’s no longer going to be allowed.

This happens; of course it does when eligible people are interacting with one another over time. But I have found that workplaces all have their own culture and I am firmly in the camp that ribald jokes, unrestrained swearing and double entendres are not courteous and professional ways for colleagues to interact.

Many will disagree, I'm sure, but that behaviour as a routine cultivates an environment where things can escalate. It's a thin line between a dirty joke and a dirty joke told with an accompanying lewd gesture that makes somebody (man or woman) feel very uncomfortable. Add in questions getting too personal or maybe a shoulder squeeze or grab around the waist and all of a sudden people can feel harassed or assulted. I'd place bets that much of what we're hearing about now has come out of undisciplined workplace environments where things have gotten out of hand.

And FWIW, in over a decade at my job, only one marriage relationship has ever resulted. It was between the "big boss" and a far-junior staff member. Unfortunately they were both married to others at the time and in addition to burning down two families, their brazen antics threw our office into chaos for literally years. Not typical, I'm sure, but a rotten experience for everyone just the same.

 

[cabanafrau]

That may be true, but I still think it's very important to clarify that sexual harassment (like rape) really has diddly to do with consensual romantic relationships. It's about power and manipulation.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that's not the case, it goes without saying. However companies are not going to be willingly leaving the door open for inter office romance when it opens up liabilities for them. Not every inter office romance leads to true and everlasting love after all.

 

[ronandannette]

Sorry - double-post. Dumb iPad is acting up this morning.

 

[Jennasis]

This happens; of course it does when eligible people are interacting with one another over time. But I have found that workplaces all have their own culture and I am firmly in the camp that ribald jokes, unrestrained swearing and double entendres are not courteous and professional ways for colleagues to interact.

Many will disagree, I'm sure, but that behaviour as a routine cultivates an environment where things can escalate. It's a thin line between a dirty joke and a dirty joke told with an accompanying lewd gesture that makes somebody (man or woman) feel very uncomfortable. Add in questions getting too personal or maybe a shoulder squeeze or grab around the waist and all of a sudden people can feel harassed or assulted. I'd place bets that much of what we're hearing about now has come out of undisciplined workplace environments where things have gotten out of hand.

And FWIW, in over a decade at my job, only one marriage relationship has ever resulted. It was between the "big boss" and a far-junior staff member. Unfortunately they were both married to others at the time and in addition to burning down two families, their brazen antics threw our office into chaos for literally years. Not typical, I'm sure, but a rotten experience for everyone just the same.

It was the ribald jokes and double entendres that won me over LOL. BUT as you point out, the difference is that I was a willing participant with him. There were several guys who tried the same where I was not a willing participant. One even offered to pay me for sex. I suppose had I ever felt unsafe or uncomfortable I would have reported the guys. Oddly...this was the same industry as Matt Lauer. Tv news. The cameramen (of which I was one...and one of only 2 women out of dozens of dudes) were very much a Boys Club and it was non stop locker room talk. The company is VERY lucky it didn't bother me. The things that I heard and saw were crazy.

 

[DopeyDame]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that's not the case, it goes without saying. However companies are not going to be willingly leaving the door open for inter office romance when it opens up liabilities for them. Not every inter office romance leads to true and everlasting love after all.

Sadly, I think there are definitely people suggesting that's not the case. I've heard way too many "so now you're telling me I can't even smile at a woman at work" kind of comments in the last few days.

 

[cabanafrau]

Sadly, I think there are definitely people suggesting that's not the case. I've heard way too many "so now you're telling me I can't even smile at a woman at work" kind of comments in the last few days.

It's precisely because of lunkheads like that who will force companies to crack down really hard with policies on inter office romance -- if they claim they cannot understand simple common sense, it will be spelled out in excruciating detail, tome upon tome of it.