Annual Pass Rumors??

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RoseGold

DIS Veteran
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Jan 21, 2020
Blockouts and Park Reservation Availability are not the same thing.

There is no such thing as fake blockouts. You could argue for manipulated park reservations which is a better argument.
I'd argue the California blackouts, executed with reservations, were very much fake, as would the lawsuit. It was gross to sell those passes and then have no weekends available. The lawsuit says it's illegal.

You have indicated in multiple places in this thread that current APs are getting favorable reservations. I guess you think just out of Disney kindness? We agree this isn't an actual fire hazard capacity issues, it's staffing priority. Of course the lawsuit is going to impact that priority, and that priority could change.

For now, I think the FL availability for APs, which has been pretty amazing, even with many days selling out multiple parks, is the result of the lawsuit. I just don't see the mouse prioritizing the "unfavorables" unless the lawyers told them to. And that can change.
 

Kender

DIS Veteran
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
I'm actually surprised it wasn't higher. I would not be surprised to see the WDW Incredible Pass at the same price point with holiday blockouts, especially the Christmas weeks.

Overall I think the price/increases were quite reasonable and much better than I expected.

And discounted Genie+ ... PLEASE BRING THAT TO WDW.

G+ costs more at DLR than at WDW. At DLR, G+ includes PP. The keys offering the discount have PP now included. The discount brings it down to about what it costs at WDW. So the discount looks to me like a quiet way to discount the fact that a perk of DLR G+ is redundant for certain Keys.

Warning. This post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinions.

I am turning cartwheels with the Magic Key renewals at DLR. Joy! It could have been soooooo much worse.

  • Remember those are renewal prices. They are probably discounted from the "new" pass prices. For example, their lowest tier was selling for $399 new. That's our Pixie. However, our renewal price for a Pixie is $339. Now their price listed for renewals went to $499. So that's an increase of $160, not $100.

DLR got rid of discounted renewals back in early 2018. So no, that's not a discounted rate. Those are the new prices for the passes.

  • They added a Genie+ discount that was not there before.

As I said above, this looks to just be discounting a redundant perk (PP). Which I'll give them at least credit for that one being aware of that. But I'm not happy with anything else.

  • It is hard to tell on parking. Did they tighten up parking benefits on the lowest tier at DLR? If they did that is a concern.

Only the top two Keys had any parking related benefit. Dream had "free" parking and Believe had 50% discount. Lower tiers even in AP days did not have a parking benefit unless you were grandfathered in to the parking add on (that was discontinued).

I just noticed something curious. DLR's MK top tiers of (now historical Dream Key), Inspire, Believe and Enchant are all available to anyone. Only their lowest tier Imagine key was and is limited to Southern California zip codes.

It's always been like this even with APs. Only lowest/cheapest tier was restricted to SoCal residency. The tiers above it anyone could buy.
 

Ms Bibbidi

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
Warning. This post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinions.

For the DLR Magic Key renewals, Disney’s new terms and conditions discloses the park reservation system has separate fixed allocations (buckets) of reservations for passholders. If that bucket runs out, Disney may still have allocations for ticketed or other types of guests.

This changes everything. Going forward there are now tiers and blockout calendars. Plus, passholders are informed and can expect that the allocation of reservations for the passholder bucket may run dry.

How bad will it get? Nobody knows. Disney could sell 1,000,000 passes and put just 100 park reservations in the MK/AP bucket for that day. Totally up to them. Oh and buying an MK or AP waives your legal remedies.

Well, I could spend $1,600 on a pass and never get lucky enough to win a single reservation.
Sort of like buying lottery tickets.
 
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RoseGold

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
But, going forward, they would advise Chapek to keep his hands off the levers to throttle passholders at both parks and all tiers as far as adding unavailability while selling tickets for the same dates. His real lever is always going to be capping the numbers -- from here forward. At least that is what his lawyers should be telling him.
The other throttles would be eliminating tiers, the speculated afternoon passes, and PRICE. They haven't used any of these yet in FL.
 
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SL6827

DIS Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
I'd argue the California blackouts, executed with reservations, were very much fake, as would the lawsuit. It was gross to sell those passes and then have no weekends available. The lawsuit says it's illegal.

You have indicated in multiple places in this thread that current APs are getting favorable reservations. I guess you think just out of Disney kindness? We agree this isn't an actual fire hazard capacity issues, it's staffing priority. Of course the lawsuit is going to impact that priority, and that priority could change.

For now, I think the FL availability for APs, which has been pretty amazing, even with many days selling out multiple parks, is the result of the lawsuit. I just don't see the mouse prioritizing the "unfavorables" unless the lawyers told them to. And that can change.
Absolutely!!! Right now with the new APs in Disneyland there will be far more black out dates than what is advertised.

Even though say December 1st is not a black out date, if Disney decides to only allow one, yes just one, Inspire Key holder in for that day, but allowed for 5,000 day ticket guest in, then yes December 1st will very much be a black out date.
 

Mrs.AMC

DIS Veteran
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Warning. This post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinions.

When a passholder is looking for park reservations for an unblocked date and is told there is nothing available, but for that same date Disney is still selling tickets that is a major malfunction under any "verbiage." I love it when lay people call legal documents, "verbiage." They seldom have a clue how much power and what rights are defined by that "verbiage." That verbiage has a monetary value called damages, punitives and attorney fees and costs.

Bottom line: I don't care what label is put on it -- unavailable, fake blockout, verbiage or anything else, an unblocked date for a passholder must legally be available as long as there is any availability for anyone.

Now, in my humble opinion, the pleadings of the California lawsuit are woeful. So, Disney might win this round. Nielson might win. It really doesn't matter.

Interesting that the "Dream Key disappeared. But, it appears from the pleadings I read that the lawsuit speaks only of Disneyland Resort and only addressed "Dream Keys." Perhaps they could not find additional named plaintiffs to press the other causes of action for all tiers of passholders on both coasts. The current lawsuit parties have been through a second amended complaint and I didn't read that complaint's revisions, but if it is the same thing, there may be a "round 2." Even if it is certified as a class action, the class might be Dream Key holders at DLR. So what!

Here's the impact, both now and after the lawsuit. I am thinking that west coast lawsuit may not prevent someone else from bringing a lawsuit, like a Sorcerer pass holder at WDW who is prevented from getting a reservation on an unblocked date while tickets are still being sold for the same date. Now, Disney's in-house lawyers are smart enough to figure this out all on their own without the benefits of the result of a lawsuit. (So many lawsuits are won not on the merits of the case, but because opposing counsel was simply not skilled enough.) So, I presume Disney's in-house counsel would advise Chapek he might get by on the cheap as far as exposure to damages in this filed lawsuit as long as only Nielson alone or the certified class that oncluded only he Dream Key holders at Disney World were involved. But, going forward, they would advise Chapek to keep his hands off the levers to throttle passholders at both parks and all tiers as far as adding unavailability while selling tickets for the same dates. His real lever is always going to be capping the numbers -- from here forward. At least that is what his lawyers should be telling him.

Now, that brings up an interesting point. IF he is being told that by his in-house counsel, then it is entirely possible that if the reservations actually do little or nothing to smooth out the crowd among the parks, then perhaps we will see reservations disappear. Availability is only one issue with reservations though. There are bonus days, adding to the number of park holds, afternoon passes and several other tools inherent in keeping reservations. So, we shall see.
I haven't looked at every single day in the year of course but I have looked at some very busy Holiday's when I've taken trips with a combination of my husband and I, who are passholders and my family who are ticket holders. There were no days when they could get park reservations and we could not. There were days when we could get park reservations and they could not. We had to alter our plans to fit what they could book as ticket guests, not the other way around. So at WDW, not sure how much of an issue AP holders have had in booking park reservations when those days were still open to ticket holders. Has it come up? In an entire year I'm sure it's possible but I'm thinking it's bound to be rare. It didn't happen on the busiest days. On those days, as an AP holder we could book reservations and the ticket holder could not. At least that was my personal experience over both Christmas and July 4

Not sure what you mean about Dream Key holders at Disney World. There is no Dream Key program at WDW is there?
 

Mackenzie Click-Mickelson

Chugging along the path of life
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
So something mentioned in the other thread was the language was updated on the TOS to include you cannot sue them and they cannot sue you via a class action, by renewing the APs at DL you are signing a waiver. Now that is a big power move on Disney and to me given how many times they field lawsuits means they think their prior TOS opened themselves up to something.

Dang to me that's big. It's not that a waiver in itself is abnormal but that they felt the need to put that in there. If I was thinking about getting an AP that actually would make me hesitate in fact the language of saying you waive a jury and a trial (with exception to small claims court) and can only go through arbitration is highly unethical IMO given the product. It means they don't want to be held legally responsible for any future decisions and feel they are above that pesky thing called a legal system.
 

SL6827

DIS Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
So something mentioned in the other thread was the language was updated on the TOS to include you cannot sue them and they cannot sue you via a class action, by renewing the APs at DL you are signing a waiver. Now that is a big power move on Disney and to me given how many times they field lawsuits means they think their prior TOS opened themselves up to something.

Dang to me that's big. It's not that a waiver in itself is abnormal but that they felt the need to put that in there. If I was thinking about getting an AP that actually would make me hesitate in fact the language of saying you waive a jury and a trial (with exception to small claims court) and can only go through arbitration is highly unethical IMO given the product. It means they don't want to be held legally responsible for any future decisions and feel they are above that pesky thing called a legal system.
Yes. So when they offer only one spot on a certain day to an AP guest but offer 5,000 spots to regular ticket holders, they can't be sued.

(just an example)
 

SL6827

DIS Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
There will be far more black out dates than what is legally advertised. But now Disney has no chance of being sued. This was the original intent. Buying that Inspire Key, but not being able to get a reservation that day ticket guest can, is a work around for Disney.
 

whiteness

Free pet adoptions
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
So something mentioned in the other thread was the language was updated on the TOS to include you cannot sue them and they cannot sue you via a class action, by renewing the APs at DL you are signing a waiver. Now that is a big power move on Disney and to me given how many times they field lawsuits means they think their prior TOS opened themselves up to something.

Dang to me that's big. It's not that a waiver in itself is abnormal but that they felt the need to put that in there. If I was thinking about getting an AP that actually would make me hesitate in fact the language of saying you waive a jury and a trial (with exception to small claims court) and can only go through arbitration is highly unethical IMO given the product. It means they don't want to be held legally responsible for any future decisions and feel they are above that pesky thing called a legal system.
That is kind of a Jerk Move on Disney's part.

Tesla does something similar in their car purchase agreement. I guess so that, if Full Self Driving turns out to be (hypothetically) perpetual beta test software that you legally cannot trust to drive your car unsupervised, only individual owners can sue them piecemeal.

False marketing promises that are egregious enough might eventually attract the attention of state regulatory agencies. But don't hold your breath.
 

SL6827

DIS Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
That is kind of a Jerk Move on Disney's part.

Tesla does something similar in their car purchase agreement. I guess so that, if Full Self Driving turns out to be (hypothetically) perpetual beta test software that you legally cannot trust to drive your car unsupervised, only individual owners can sue them piecemeal.

False marketing promises that are egregious enough might eventually attract the attention of state regulatory agencies. But don't hold your breath.
Right. Disney just didn't have thier bases covered first go around, thus the lawsuit. Park reservations are here to stay.
 

Ms Bibbidi

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
Seems based on CEO’s comments on earnings calls that they make much more from non pass holders .. my prediction is that as long as the economy is coming back and people are willing to pay the higher daily / weekly prices we will not see the annual passes come back .. I think that if they do come back it will be solely for dvc and Florida residents …. Gone are the days where you buy an annual pass and visit for 20 plus days a year …
Hi Chuck
Did you see Disney is renewing Magic Keys in California? I guess your prediction about those days being gone was … well … flat out wrong.

(How come I feel like my name should be Lucy and I just pulled away a football?).
 

Ms Bibbidi

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
I haven't looked at every single day in the year of course but I have looked at some very busy Holiday's when I've taken trips with a combination of my husband and I, who are passholders and my family who are ticket holders. There were no days when they could get park reservations and we could not. There were days when we could get park reservations and they could not. We had to alter our plans to fit what they could book as ticket guests, not the other way around. So at WDW, not sure how much of an issue AP holders have had in booking park reservations when those days were still open to ticket holders. Has it come up? In an entire year I'm sure it's possible but I'm thinking it's bound to be rare. It didn't happen on the busiest days. On those days, as an AP holder we could book reservations and the ticket holder could not. At least that was my personal experience over both Christmas and July 4

Not sure what you mean about Dream Key holders at Disney World. There is no Dream Key program at WDW is there?
I know Mother’s Day was one and I have seen more. Most were last fall and winter.

There was a Dream Key. The new set of renewals do not include the Dream key.
 

Ms Bibbidi

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
So something mentioned in the other thread was the language was updated on the TOS to include you cannot sue them and they cannot sue you via a class action, by renewing the APs at DL you are signing a waiver. Now that is a big power move on Disney and to me given how many times they field lawsuits means they think their prior TOS opened themselves up to something.

Dang to me that's big. It's not that a waiver in itself is abnormal but that they felt the need to put that in there. If I was thinking about getting an AP that actually would make me hesitate in fact the language of saying you waive a jury and a trial (with exception to small claims court) and can only go through arbitration is highly unethical IMO given the product. It means they don't want to be held legally responsible for any future decisions and feel they are above that pesky thing called a legal system.
  • The vast majority of people will not read it and will buy it anyway. We are a country of marginally educated sheeple who are very sloppy in matters of legal terms and conditions.
  • Somebody might get angry enough to try to sue and some unscrupulous law firm might take on the case. The law firm will make money. The angry passholder may be bankrupted in costs alone. Justice these days is only for the rich. Even then … .
  • I will buy the pass. At worst, for me it will be less than $2k on the line. I will not carry the torch or issues for others even if I know the issues are there. I know for certain how much personal effort and treasure those battles take. Not worth it.
 
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Mackenzie Click-Mickelson

Chugging along the path of life
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
  • The vast majority of people will not read it and will sign it anyway. We are a country of marginally educated sheeple who are very sloppy in matters of legal terms and conditions.
  • Somebody might get angry enough to try to sue and some unscrupulous law firm might take on the case. The law firm will make money. The angry passholder may be bankrupted in costs alone. Justice these days is only for the rich. Even then … .
  • I will buy the pass. At worst, for me it will be less than $2k on the line. I will not carry the torch or issues for others even if I know the issues are there. I know for certain how much personal effort and treasure those battles take. Not worth it.
That's great for you.

Not sure I'd would be that rude to people calling them marginally educated

Still doesn't change squat about what my comment was.

Civil lawsuits aren't about one person, they are about the collective people. So it may not be worth it to you but sometimes people do things because it's about others, or about holding businesses and government, etc accountable.

Happy for you that you'll buy the pass, that's your choice of course.
 

fumanchu2488

Mouseketeer
Joined
May 20, 2020
30 Days is unrealistic. Unless you are retired, very hard for someone who is out of state (and not a border state to Florida) to take that much time off just to go to one location.

And $1300 isn't really $1300. You have to include tax which bumps it up to the $1500 range. ($1600 with memory maker which used to be free)

30 Days on 3 10 day trips you are looking at least $3150 on lodging. And that assumes the cheapest decent off site lodging possible since a 10 day trip will at the very least bump into a Fri/Sat stay which is more expensive.

Then you have to factor in the airfare for 3 trips which will very depending on your location but will be costly.

And then food for $30 days and transportation cost (rental car, UBER, LYNX bus)

Only the richest people could follow your AP pricing structure. If the breakeven point is 30 days then very few people would buy it.
So it looks like DL just upped their price about 14%, added a bunch of CYA statements in their T&C AND added blackout dates for the most popular weeks of the year.

I bet this is the approach moving forward at WDW as well which just proves my point that they were priced too low to begin with.
 

Ms Bibbidi

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
So it looks like DL just upped their price about 14%, added a bunch of CYA statements in their T&C AND added blackout dates for the most popular weeks of the year.

I bet this is the approach moving forward at WDW as well which just proves my point that they were priced too low to begin with.lol need tickets.
You were not alone in your feelings about the underpricing.
Just pay the freight and go have a great time.
As far as holidays, this is more honest. There wouldn’t have been much availability in bucket #2 anyway. So it is better to know that if I want to spend holidays at the park, I will need tickets.
 

Ms Bibbidi

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2022
That's great for you.

Not sure I'd would be that rude to people calling them marginally educated

Still doesn't change squat about what my comment was.

Civil lawsuits aren't about one person, they are about the collective people. So it may not be worth it to you but sometimes people do things because it's about others, or about holding businesses and government, etc accountable.

Happy for you that you'll buy the pass, that's your choice of course.
You want to see grossly unfair boilerplate verbiage that hoses a consumer? Take some time and read the fine print on a mortgage. I do not want to be a plaintiff or a defendant. I would rather do more important things in life. I have found that if anger is the engine for something it is best to be very careful lest the remedy is worse than the original circumstance.
 
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Mackenzie Click-Mickelson

Chugging along the path of life
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
You want to see grossly unfair boilerplate verbiage that hoses a consumer? Disney’s language is child’s play. Take some time and read the fine print on a mortgage! If I were going to take on a socia
I'm talking just about Disney. If it's NBD to you that's great, I don't share that sentiment. This isn't a game of finding what ifs about mortgage or other fine print out there (and I even said a waiver is not uncommon). I posted what I hadn't seen spoken about yet on this thread with the update and gave my thoughts on it. That is all.
 
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