An end to tipping?

[eliza61]

It's not emotional blackmail, and you're looking at it backwards. We don't tip because wait staff are paid low wages, wait staff are paid low wages because they get the bulk of their pay in tips.
If you look back to wages back at the turn of the century wait staff weren't paid at all. They worked just for tips. There have even been places that would require the staff to pay the owner a fee to work there. The big change came about with the industrial revolution, and labor unions demanding minimum wage. At that time restaurant owners were required to actually pay the small wages you see now, and stop charging the staff to work there. I'm thinking it was sometime in the late 70's that the government started to require wait staff to report their income, and that if it didn't meat the minimum wage (the real one, not the wait staff one) then the restaurant was supposed to pay the difference.
And there you have the history of tipping and the wait staff - according to acklander, who comes from several generations of restauranteurs.

Ok let's say I agree that they get low wages due to tips. That would mean in essence I am a temporary employer. I'M Still not paying for not doing a good job. For that small portion of time, their livelihood depends on the performance with me.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Ok let's say I agree that they get low wages due to tips. That would mean in essence I am a temporary employer. I'M Still not paying for not doing a good job. For that small portion of time, their livelihood depends on the performance with me.

I agree. A tip is a gratuity, something that is paid beyond obligation. I know working in food service is a hard job, I've done it. I don't expect a lot. Just the basics. If they aren't met, the tip goes down accordingly.

That said, pizza delivery in general is interesting. The pizza place we order from has added on a delivery fee, but it doesn't go to the drivers. Supposedly it was instituted because of the rising gas prices but again it doesn't go towards the drivers (the company states this on their literature) and the drivers use their own cars. So the cost of pizza is up, there are additional delivery fees, add that to the tipping of the driver --- it's just cheaper to pick it up. Sometimes we do. That's fairly new for us, but if we are out and about we call in our order and pick it up on our way back.

 

[Planogirl]

I believe that tipping should stay because servers provide good service in the hope that they will receive nice tips. Standard compensation wouldn't motivate anyone to do any more than what is required, at least not at minimum wage which some people think is enough.

Plus like others have said, restaurants prices would just go up to cover the higher pay so you'd pay one way or the other.

 

[Tigger1]

I went out to eat yesturday and got the "above and Beyond' service. It was lunch time so the majority of the meals were $8.99. At this restuarant complementary chips, cheese sauce, salsa, tortillos ect.. was served. During dinner the wait staff, manager, food runner would keep these complementary items replaced when needed. Drinks refilled. They did not have to ask or be told. No where at Disney have I recieved this type of service. Note, I have never tried a Signiture restaurant at Disney. This is just how the restaurants standards are.
Now imagine if we tipped the expected tip for this $8.99 meal. It would be much less than the $ 30.00 entree at Disney.

I agree with raise the wages and give great service because its the job you have and you enjoy it.

 

[sam_gordon]

Standard compensation wouldn't motivate anyone to do any more than what is required, at least not at minimum wage which some people think is enough.

So all those folks getting paid minimum wage in other jobs AREN'T motivated to do a good job? When I was in high school and bagging groceries for minimum wage, I still wanted to do a good job. When I was flipping burgers at Hardees for minimum wage, I still wanted to do a good job.

Plus like others have said, restaurants prices would just go up to cover the higher pay so you'd pay one way or the other.

But their wouldn't be a guilt trip associated with it.

Again, the point isn't to get rid of ALL tips, it's to get rid of the EXPECTED tip... no different than (probably) every other industry.

I assume everyone here works hard in their jobs.
I assume everyone here tries to do a good job, regardless of their feelings for the job.
I assume no one here goes to their boss every year and say... I have to have a 15% bonus... I don't make enough.

 

[eliza61]

I believe that tipping should stay because servers provide good service in the hope that they will receive nice tips. Standard compensation wouldn't motivate anyone to do any more than what is required, at least not at minimum wage which some people think is enough. Plus like others have said, restaurants prices would just go up to cover the higher pay so you'd pay one way or the other.

See I think the opposite, I think standard compensation could return
tipping to being the motivational factor.
Let's say your right, minimum wage gets you mediocre service. Cool, you simply take my order and bring my food. no problem, no tip. As it stands now when I get this type of service I'm still required to pony up a 15% tip.

Change that around to now I Know there is a possibility of not getting a tip and mindset changes. Right now I believe (I'm not a server so I don't know for sure) that most servers assume that they will get some type of tip. No matter how crappy they are, they know for the most part they will get some thing.
What happens to that attitude if they start knowing that if they give crappy service they get "bubskas", zippo?
Now maybe you'll get "Let me suck up my horrible day and put on a happy face" because I need some extra cash.

 

[eliza61]

I assume everyone here works hard in their jobs.
I assume everyone here tries to do a good job, regardless of their feelings for the job.
I assume no one here goes to their boss every year and say... I have to have a 15% bonus... I don't make enough.

Not only don't you do that as a general rule, most arenas when you go to your boss with a bonus request you have to prove tangibly that you went ABOVE AND BEYOND.
I have an annual rating review. 2 things can happen. 1) I go in and it's been a very normal, nothing extra, did my job type of review. I can expect a very average raise (if the company is giving raises). OR 2) I go in with documentation that I invented the next wonder bra/sliced bread/techno gadget that is going to revolutionize the company or I brought it a gazillion dollars of sales, then I can expect the extra money in my check.

So for me begininng salary is moot.
standard, or mediocre performance should equal mediocre bonus.
Great or above average performance should equal great bonus. In the case of servers I treat tips as their bonus.

 

[Planogirl]

See I think the opposite, I think standard compensation could return
tipping to being the motivational factor.
Let's say your right, minimum wage gets you mediocre service. Cool, you simply take my order and bring my food. no problem, no tip. As it stands now when I get this type of service I'm still required to pony up a 15% tip.

Change that around to now I Know there is a possibility of not getting a tip and mindset changes. Right now I believe (I'm not a server so I don't know for sure) that most servers assume that they will get some type of tip. No matter how crappy they are, they know for the most part they will get some thing.
What happens to that attitude if they start knowing that if they give crappy service they get "bubskas", zippo?
Now maybe you'll get "Let me suck up my horrible day and put on a happy face" because I need some extra cash.

If you raise the pay to minimum wage and people start tipping some smaller amount for good service what is to keep that from becoming the norm in due time? Say that diners start adding 5% or so as a tip for good service. I bet that eventually 5% will be expected and then it might gradually go up. I've seen tipping go up from 15% to 18% and lately 20%.

Also, you can certainly leave nothing now if the service is bad. I know of people who are stiffed and at least according to them the service was good. Some people still don't tip no matter what the service is like.

Another poster asked if others who make minimum wage don't do a good job. Of course some do but these jobs aren't as people oriented for the most part as server jobs. That person at the fast food counter or that person bagging groceries has little interaction with the customer. They aren't bringing water and various courses and so on. I just see it as different and I don't even think that minimum wage is adequate for what they do.

 

[Planogirl]

Not only don't you do that as a general rule, most arenas when you go to your boss with a bonus request you have to prove tangibly that you went ABOVE AND BEYOND.
I have an annual rating review. 2 things can happen. 1) I go in and it's been a very normal, nothing extra, did my job type of review. I can expect a very average raise (if the company is giving raises). OR 2) I go in with documentation that I invented the next wonder bra/sliced bread/techno gadget that is going to revolutionize the company or I brought it a gazillion dollars of sales, then I can expect the extra money in my check.

So for me begininng salary is moot.
standard, or mediocre performance should equal mediocre bonus.
Great or above average performance should equal great bonus. In the case of servers I treat tips as their bonus.

In our company we get bonuses based on meeting certain numbers. We don't get to present our case as to why we deserve more but the amount (if any) is decided on by a computer program. Going above and beyond won't change a thing in most cases.

 

[MSLRAC]

But their wouldn't be a guilt trip associated with it.

Again, the point isn't to get rid of ALL tips, it's to get rid of the EXPECTED tip... no different than (probably) every other industry.

I assume everyone here works hard in their jobs.
I assume everyone here tries to do a good job, regardless of their feelings for the job.
I assume no one here goes to their boss every year and say... I have to have a 15% bonus... I don't make enough.

Where are you eating or how poorly are you tipping that you feel a guilt trip when leaving a tip? I have never once felt this way and we eat out a lot (couple to 3 times a week). We tip based on service and the server does not hover to see what we are going to leave.

If you raise the pay to minimum wage and people start tipping some smaller amount for good service what is to keep that from becoming the norm in due time? Say that diners start adding 5% or so as a tip for good service. I bet that eventually 5% will be expected and then it might gradually go up. I've seen tipping go up from 15% to 18% and lately 20%.

Exactly! The OP has said a couple of times that this is just about getting rid of expected tips and that you would still tip for good service. So in time, things would just adjust and we'd still be expected to tip and be paying higher meal prices.

 

[sam_gordon]

If you raise the pay to minimum wage and people start tipping some smaller amount for good service what is to keep that from becoming the norm in due time? Say that diners start adding 5% or so as a tip for good service. I bet that eventually 5% will be expected and then it might gradually go up. I've seen tipping go up from 15% to 18% and lately 20%.

But then the service level is going up. If someone EXPECTS a 5% tip, then they should put in the extra effort to deserve it.

Also, you can certainly leave nothing now if the service is bad. I know of people who are stiffed and at least according to them the service was good. Some people still don't tip no matter what the service is like.

You're right. And some servers don't do a good job no matter how much the tip is (but you better leave a tip, otherwise, they're getting stiffed). The problem is the tip is currently EXPECTED. If a server does a subpar job and they get a low, or no, tip, do they think "oh I didn't do a good job" or "that customer is a cheapskate"?

Another poster asked if others who make minimum wage don't do a good job. Of course some do but these jobs aren't as people oriented for the most part as server jobs. That person at the fast food counter or that person bagging groceries has little interaction with the customer. They aren't bringing water and various courses and so on. I just see it as different and I don't even think that minimum wage is adequate for what they do.

I don't think what teachers, firefighters, policemen, etc get paid adequately for what they do. But people get paid what the market decides.

 

[sam_gordon]

Where are you eating or how poorly are you tipping that you feel a guilt trip when leaving a tip? I have never once felt this way and we eat out a lot (couple to 3 times a week). We tip based on service and the server does not hover to see what we are going to leave.

People are made to feel guilty if they don't leave a tip. Granted, it's rare that a waiter will chase you down if you don't leave anything. But look at how people react in this thread and others... "can't leave a tip? don't go out", "of course you should leave a tip, they don't make much", etc.

Exactly! The OP has said a couple of times that this is just about getting rid of expected tips and that you would still tip for good service. So in time, things would just adjust and we'd still be expected to tip and be paying higher meal prices.

For about 8 years, we got a holiday bonus every year because our company did so well and the Board of Directors wanted to thank us. Heck, one year, we even got TWO bonuses. In 2009, we didn't get one. But, when you don't EXPECT one, not getting one doesn't hurt.
You want a tip? Do more than just the job. I can't tell you exactly what that means, but I know it when I see it. What's wrong with wanting good service?

 

[chobie]

People are made to feel guilty if they don't leave a tip. Granted, it's rare that a waiter will chase you down if you don't leave anything. But look at how people react in this thread and others... "can't leave a tip? don't go out", "of course you should leave a tip, they don't make much", etc.


For about 8 years, we got a holiday bonus every year because our company did so well and the Board of Directors wanted to thank us. Heck, one year, we even got TWO bonuses. In 2009, we didn't get one. But, when you don't EXPECT one, not getting one doesn't hurt.
You want a tip? Do more than just the job. I can't tell you exactly what that means, but I know it when I see it. What's wrong with wanting good service?

Well, yes, you should feel like a a jerk if you go to a full service restaurant and plan on not tipping. It is expected (for good service) and servers are paid less than minimum wage and taxed on sales. So, if you go out to eat without enough money to tip, or with the expectation that you won't tip no matter what because you don't believe in the system, you should feel guilty.

 

[sam_gordon]

Well, yes, you should feel like a a jerk if you go to a full service restaurant and plan on not tipping. It is expected (for good service) and servers are paid less than minimum wage and taxed on sales. So, if you go out to eat without enough money to tip, or with the expectation that you won't tip no matter what because you don't believe in the system, you should feel guilty.

But that's just it... it's expected for ANY service, good, bad, or average. That's the point. Ask any server who ever didn't get a tip. Do you think you'll get even ONE saying their service probably didn't deserve a tip?

A tip is now the price of going out, right? So let's make it part of the price. THEN, if someone does something you feel worthy of being tipped (which is going to be different for most people), then tip them. But to tip someone for "going through the motions"? I think we should do away with that.

 

[chobie]

But that's just it... it's expected for ANY service, good, bad, or average. That's the point. Ask any server who ever didn't get a tip. Do you think you'll get even ONE saying their service probably didn't deserve a tip?

A tip is now the price of going out, right? So let's make it part of the price. THEN, if someone does something you feel worthy of being tipped (which is going to be different for most people), then tip them. But to tip someone for "going through the motions"? I think we should do away with that.

The comment (if you can't afford to tip don't go out) is not indicative of an expectation that one should tip for poor service. However, if you go out without the money to tip and get great service (which should be expected when you eat full service) and then don't tip -- you should feel guilty.

There are a number of people who do not tip ever, for whatever reason, and they should feel guilty.

I did wait tables for many years and there were times I did not give good service and did not expect a tip. Most of the time it was for reasons that were beyond my control (hostesses sat too many tables in my section at once, bartender not getting out drinks, cooks not getting out food or messing up the order etc.). I expected that there would be times I could not give good service and would not get tipped.

 

[sam_gordon]

The comment (if you can't afford to tip don't go out) is not indicative of an expectation that one should tip for poor service. However, if you go out without the money to tip and get great service (which should be expected when you eat full service) and then don't tip -- you should feel guilty.

There are a number of people who do not tip ever, for whatever reason, and they should feel guilty.

I did wait tables for many years and there were times I did not give good service and did not expect a tip. Most of the time it was for reasons that were beyond my control (hostesses sat too many tables in my section at once, bartender not getting out drinks, cooks not getting out food or messing up the order etc.). I expected that there would be times I could not give good service and would not get tipped.

chobie- Thank you for clearing up my assumption. I still say the "feeling" I get is tips are expected, even with poor service. I'm sure there are bad servers just like their are bad customers.

 

[Acklander]

Ok let's say I agree that they get low wages due to tips. That would mean in essence I am a temporary employer. I'M Still not paying for not doing a good job. For that small portion of time, their livelihood depends on the performance with me.

Sure, if you get crappy service, you don't tip and you let the manager know that you're not tipping because of the crappy service. Seriously, if the service was so bad that it warrants nothing on the tip - then you should be letting people know they have a problem.
If someone is bad at waiting on tables, they don't last long in the industry. Also, a professional can tell the difference on if they're getting a lower tip, because the wait person wasn't up to snuff, or if the person is just being cheap.
Just like any job, you know when you're doing a good job and you know when you're screwing up.

 

[SandrA9810]

I worked at Disney in a strictly non tipping service position. That was photopass. I hd to bust my butt just like any other CM, make the same pay, but they get tips? What makes my job any less harder, any less demanding than cleaning a room, putting a girl's hair in a pony tail (BBB), cutting hair, taking bags to a room? What about those operating rides, cleaning the streets, checking you into a hotel, watching the pool, the train conductor (that's one of the worst), setting off fireworks, performing shows and giving out hugs. Why can't they recieve tips? Some are ensuring your safety and life, some are bringing joy to the whole family, alot more than a maid.

Servers are the only ones i tip at Disney. I busted my butt off to do my job, they can do thier own, without compensation. At least there's no room service at the Fort.

 

[Acklander]

I worked at Disney in a strictly non tipping service position. That was photopass. I hd to bust my butt just like any other CM, make the same pay, but they get tips? What makes my job any less harder, any less demanding than cleaning a room, putting a girl's hair in a pony tail (BBB), cutting hair, taking bags to a room? What about those operating rides, cleaning the streets, checking you into a hotel, watching the pool, the train conductor (that's one of the worst), setting off fireworks, performing shows and giving out hugs. Why can't they recieve tips? Some are ensuring your safety and life, some are bringing joy to the whole family, alot more than a maid.

Servers are the only ones i tip at Disney. I busted my butt off to do my job, they can do thier own, without compensation. At least there's no room service at the Fort.

If you wanted tips, then you apply for a tip position type job. And in this country, wait staff is a tipped position. You're comparing apples to oranges, with the photo pass and people working the rides. That would be the same as comparing a car salesman, who is paid by commission, to the person who processes payroll? Why don't they get a commission on each paycheck? Or people who work in a factory who is paid piecemeal vs. The person letting someone in at the gate at Disney. Why aren't they paid for each person who passes by?
Different jobs are paid different ways. Some on commission, some hourly, some salary, some are tipped positions.

 

[sam_gordon]

If you wanted tips, then you apply for a tip position type job. And in this country, wait staff is a tipped position. You're comparing apples to oranges, with the photo pass and people working the rides. That would be the same as comparing a car salesman, who is paid by commission, to the person who processes payroll? Why don't they get a commission on each paycheck? Or people who work in a factory who is paid piecemeal vs. The person letting someone in at the gate at Disney. Why aren't they paid for each person who passes by?
Different jobs are paid different ways. Some on commission, some hourly, some salary, some are tipped positions.

OK, so why does waitstaff need to be a tipped position? Upthread it was mentioned about how they work with the public. SandrA gives some prime examples of others who work with the public but aren't tipped. Is it simply "because that's the way it's always been done"?