Allocated seating trial at Fantasmic***Now with another new twist, see page 15, #288***

[SureAsLiz]

Well, just look at the earlier comments in this thread.

Disney fans (really fans of anything) seem to have a really vocal section that cries out against ANYTHING changing, doesn't mean that it isn't necessary, or needed to make the whole of WDW better for everyone.

I've seen these very same posters begging for change in other areas.

One thing I've found interesting through all of this is that people have been vocal about returning to legacy FP, but the moment a test is put in place that would somewhat do that, people are against it.

 

[Jeff from Texas]

It's the mixing of the paper and the electronic that makes no sense to me.

The paper for this 1 week test is just that, a test. Quick comparison between 3 differing systems to see in real life how it works out.

 

[SureAsLiz]

What is better about this plan for the guest than the Fantasmic FP that they already built into the app?
It's the mixing of the paper and the electronic that makes no sense to me.
...
Maybe they need to move Fantasmic into tier 2.

They already have a mix of paper and electronic, albeit on a smaller scale. Rider swap, comp passes, those are both paper. This would just be on a larger scale.

Yes. moving F! to tier 2 would make more sense when just looking at F!, but I think the reason it is a tier 1 is the same reason LWtL is in Epcot - crowd distribution. The more people that book F! as one of their original 3 the less people that will be in the FP lines for TSMM and RnR

 

[bcrook]

It can work very well at DHS, it's just change that it seems everyone hates at all times.

DHS has a huge advantage over DLR in that it has a dedicated theater for F!, instead of shutting down the walkways around Rivers of America to make seating for the show. The fastpass for Fantasmic! and World of Color at DLR are separate from the rest of your fastpass system, in that getting one early in the morning doesn't prevent you from getting another fastpass immediately for a different attraction. As for park hopping, it's the same issue that you've always had a WDW park, you have to be in the park to get the fastpass. The people that plan to go to DHS and stay all day are going to end up with the better seats than those that just want to show up before the show in the evening. Unfortunate for WDW is that park hopping is so time consuming because of the size, but it does really do wonders for the immersion factor, unlike DLR where park hopping is really encouraged because there is only 110 yards between entrances of DL and CA, but you have more intrusion of the "outside" into the parks because there is a major freeway and surface streets right outside both parks.

BTW, I'm having an interesting time with this, and there is nothing personal intended or taken in this. It's helping me get some of my thoughts together in a more organized manner about the comparison between WDW and DLR. Wish I lived a little closer to either park so that I could go more often, but that allows me to continue dreaming about a Disney Texas parks system.

I think you are saying that by turning the Fantasmic! Show back into a legacy style event is a great idea.

While I agree that the legacy model is a much better way of operating...DLR was great, it is odd and clunky to have the legacy system for this and the 'PLUS' system for everything else. I don't think the parks can serve both masters.

Now I would say that using the app to book Fastpasses in a legacy type manner would be innovative. The problem is capacity at DHS. It doesn't have enough Fastpasses to hand out to the guests. Taking Fantasmic off that grid forces more guests into the TSMM AND RNRC virtual queues. That's why it is different than DLR: not enough attractions.

I love change. I think most people want change in the form of positive change embedded in new attractions and policies based on patron happiness rather than more closures and bean counter schemes.

 

[mom2rtk]

One thing I've found interesting through all of this is that people have been vocal about returning to legacy FP, but the moment a test is put in place that would somewhat do that, people are against it.

Not really. If we had a "way back" machine, I think there are a fair number of people who would choose that over what we have now. But I don't think anyone really thinks that's going to happen.

Fantasmic did not have any sort of FP during legacy, so I don't see that as people resisting going back to legacy.

I'm in favor of whatever gives me the most flexibility to choose what we want to do (including where to sit for the show) once we arrive at the park for the day.

 

[ArwenMarie]

They already have a mix of paper and electronic, albeit on a smaller scale. Rider swap, comp passes, those are both paper. This would just be on a larger scale.

Yes. moving F! to tier 2 would make more sense when just looking at F!, but I think the reason it is a tier 1 is the same reason LWtL is in Epcot - crowd distribution. The more people that book F! as one of their original 3 the less people that will be in the FP lines for TSMM and RnR

They moved the DAS card to the bands, no more paper. It seems the trend is from paper to electronic (including moving all of the FPs into electronic )

Moving this to paper will hurt Tier 1 capacity as well.

 

[bcrook]

One thing I've found interesting through all of this is that people have been vocal about returning to legacy FP, but the moment a test is put in place that would somewhat do that, people are against it.

It's disjointed to take Fantasmic out of the FP+ inventory as you have said. I much prefer the legacy and DLR distribution system. But this mix of systems is not logical.

Actually it would make more sense to make this show a separate type of experience. Book it like an ADR... Like tickets to a show. That way people could simply make plans to see Fantasmic and skip the rest of the park (what's left of it).

With the closures in DHS maybe this is a way Disney can force people to go to DHS all day. Go in and pick up a Fantasmic pass and wait around all day for the show. Maybe that will work at DAK too, get people in early for the pass, keep them all day to watch the show. Disney has been trying to counteract the half day park problem.

 

[Jeff from Texas]

I think you are saying that by turning the Fantasmic! Show back into a legacy style event is a great idea.

While I agree that the legacy model is a much better way of operating...DLR was great, it is odd and clunky to have the legacy system for this and the 'PLUS' system for everything else. I don't think the parks can serve both masters.

Now I would say that using the app to book Fastpasses in a legacy type manner would be innovative. The problem is capacity at DHS. It doesn't have enough Fastpasses to hand out to the guests. Taking Fantasmic off that grid forces more guests into the TSMM AND RNRC virtual queues. That's why it is different than DLR: not enough attractions.

I love change. I think most people want change in the form of positive change embedded in new attractions and policies based on patron happiness rather than more closures and bean counter schemes.

No, I'm NOT saying that. The point is that at DLR the fastpasses for the night shows are not counted against the regular system of fastpass. They are "out of the loop" and can be picked up at any time. It's not you have just gotten a fastpass for Grizzly River so you have to wait for that time to get a fp for World of Color and then have to wait to get another fp for say Radiator Springs Racers. It's you have a fp for Grizzly River, they open the fp kiosk for WoC and you can get your fp for that, then after the time for GR you can go get your RSR fp. The fp for WoC is out of the time restrictions for getting new fastpasses for "daytime" rides.

I think that eventually they will be bringing the ability to book all FP+ through the MDX system, and only have the kiosks for people that don't have smartphones or at the gate ticket purchases.

 

[LOL!]

I'm in favor of whatever gives me the most flexibility to choose what we want to do (including where to sit for the show) once we arrive at the park for the day.

Hear, Hear.

 

[LOL!]

I think there are two things about this that could simply be peculiar to the testing methods and not necessarily a final result:

1. That F! will be removed from the FP+ pool. For the purposes of this experiment (I prefer that word to "test") it provides for much clearer analysis if the subject of the experiment is isolated.

2. That passes will be paper based. Much easier to print thousands of slips of paper than to task a contracted IT development team with a project that has an undefined final form (thus the need to experiment).

The observation that industrial engineers conducted counts indicates to me this is all about increased capacity per show, forcing it from passive capacity management in which the guests themselves had the ability to influence how many people could fit in the theater based simply on how closely they sat together to active capacity management in which that influence is minimized or removed.

Which works best - seat, row, or section management? The results of this experiment will be interesting for sure but in a vacuum don't account for personal subjective preferences that currently can be easily resolved.

Like one's view being blocked by a pole.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Well, just look at the earlier comments in this thread.

Disney fans (really fans of anything) seem to have a really vocal section that cries out against ANYTHING changing, doesn't mean that it isn't necessary, or needed to make the whole of WDW better for everyone.

I don't see any opposition to pre assigned sections...mostly just preassigned seats and and small seat widths (which would be a non issue if they choose one of the 2 other options). I don't really see anyone saying that none of the options are OK.

I don't even care if they do preassigned seating, as long as I can choose the seating myself when I make the reservation, as I would for any sporting event or concert with seating assignments. But I do highly doubt that Disney's IT can integrate that function with MDE.

 

[bcrook]

No, I'm NOT saying that. The point is that at DLR the fastpasses for the night shows are not counted against the regular system of fastpass. They are "out of the loop" and can be picked up at any time. It's not you have just gotten a fastpass for Grizzly River so you have to wait for that time to get a fp for World of Color and then have to wait to get another fp for say Radiator Springs Racers. It's you have a fp for Grizzly River, they open the fp kiosk for WoC and you can get your fp for that, then after the time for GR you can go get your RSR fp. The fp for WoC is out of the time restrictions for getting new fastpasses for "daytime" rides.

I think that eventually they will be bringing the ability to book all FP+ through the MDX system, and only have the kiosks for people that don't have smartphones or at the gate ticket purchases.

You do know that nearly all attractions at WDW can booked via mdx experience right now including Fantasmic except for this test.

Not enough people are booking the Fantasmic! FP because it has been assigned Tier 1 status with RNRC and TSMM.

But some people are booking the F! FP+ at a tier 1. This provides valuable FP slots for a park that is treacherously low on attractions to accommodate the 23,000+ people who enter everyday.

So by taking F! Out of the loop, it puts more stress on the other TWO attractions. Conversely, At DLR there are dozens of other attractions.

And at DLR there is pressure to get the parks relatively early to get a nighttime fast pass in both parks. If DHS takes Fantasmic! Out of the loop there should be a huge demand for those passes causing a pressure to get to the park earlier.

The ONLY good thing I can see about FP+ is that you can schedule FP for TSMM in the evening after spending the morning in Epcot. Taking Fantasmic! Out of the Loop would undo even that advantage. I see the same thing for DAK.

So we could end up with a system that forces us to plan our rides months in advance, and still have to get up early to get to the parks to get show passes. That is a hybrid that is intolerable. The worst of both worlds. And that is exactly what is being tested and you are using DLR as a model which works that way for the shows.

If Fantasmic! was taken out of the loop and allowed to be booked on line 60 days in advance without counting as a FP that could cause some interesting battles and early morning scrambling...and the dinner packages would most likely soar because you could get a seat without the hassle. Of course that wouldn't help those lines for TSMM. But it would generate more money.

 

[bcrook]

I think there are two things about this that could simply be peculiar to the testing methods and not necessarily a final result:

1. That F! will be removed from the FP+ pool. For the purposes of this experiment (I prefer that word to "test") it provides for much clearer analysis if the subject of the experiment is isolated.

2. That passes will be paper based. Much easier to print thousands of slips of paper than to task a contracted IT development team with a project that has an undefined final form (thus the need to experiment).

The observation that industrial engineers conducted counts indicates to me this is all about increased capacity per show, forcing it from passive capacity management in which the guests themselves had the ability to influence how many people could fit in the theater based simply on how closely they sat together to active capacity management in which that influence is minimized or removed.

Which works best - seat, row, or section management? The results of this experiment will be interesting for sure but in a vacuum don't account for personal subjective preferences that currently can be easily resolved.

Like one's view being blocked by a pole.

Higher capacity. Check
Create a higher demand. Check
Sell more dinner packages because people will want to avoid the hassle. Check

At DAK they are going to need two more restaurants to be able to handle the dining and night time show demand. I guess Yak and Yeti is about to be come a popular option. The restaurant in Pandora...and what else? Tusker House? They better get building.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Higher capacity. Check
Create a higher demand. Check
Sell more dinner packages because people will want to avoid the hassle. Check

At DAK they are going to need two more restaurants to be able to handle the dining and night time show demand. I guess Yak and Yeti is about to be come a popular option. The restaurant in Pandora...and what else? Tusker House? They better get building.

And the Harambe eateries they just put in (without air conditioning because what DAK needs is less AC)

 

[ArwenMarie]

I think there are two things about this that could simply be peculiar to the testing methods and not necessarily a final result:

1. That F! will be removed from the FP+ pool. For the purposes of this experiment (I prefer that word to "test") it provides for much clearer analysis if the subject of the experiment is isolated.

2. That passes will be paper based. Much easier to print thousands of slips of paper than to task a contracted IT development team with a project that has an undefined final form (thus the need to experiment).

The observation that industrial engineers conducted counts indicates to me this is all about increased capacity per show, forcing it from passive capacity management in which the guests themselves had the ability to influence how many people could fit in the theater based simply on how closely they sat together to active capacity management in which that influence is minimized or removed.

Which works best - seat, row, or section management? The results of this experiment will be interesting for sure but in a vacuum don't account for personal subjective preferences that currently can be easily resolved.

Like one's view being blocked by a pole.

Yes this is definitely about smushing more people in and I would think possibly eliminating second shows on some nights. We know that almost everything they do now in regard to the parks is geared towards optimizing capacity and cutting costs. That is what FP+ was built for. I guess FP+ in its current form didn't work too well for Fantasmic.

 

[bcrook]

And the Harambe eateries they just put in (without air conditioning because what DAK needs is less AC)

Do you think they could offer a dining and night time show package in conjunction with Harambe or pizzafari?

Are they building a table service restaurant at Pizzafari? That could be a dining package location. I don't think this is off topic, because I think this DHS test is collecting data that will help decide both nighttime shows. There is no doubt that Disney is looking to find ways to increase their money generated on dining packages.

If they took Fantasmic! Out of the loop and made it like an ADR, would they also require the $10.00 guarantee and 24 hour cancelation? If they use it for restaurants that are always empty, they might use it for popular shows.

Mercy. I can tell I'm totally immersed in a planning period right now. Lots of questions.

 

[bcrook]

Yes this is definitely about smushing more people in and I would think possibly eliminating second shows on some nights. We know that almost everything they do now in regard to the parks is geared towards optimizing capacity and cutting costs. That is what FP+ was built for. I guess FP+ in its current form didn't work too well for Fantasmic.

More moving away from standby - it's too much of a wild card.

 

[larryz]

And the Harambe eateries they just put in (without air conditioning because what DAK needs is less AC)

Anything to keep it as authentic as possible.

I'm sure cost had nothing to do with it.

 

[ArwenMarie]

More moving away from standby - it's too much of a wild card.

Right making standby real standby, as in you can have a seat if there is one left.

 

[jtowntoflorida]

It seems to me the reason for this is because they don't want people lining up so far ahead in advance for Fantasmic. I assume this is because by making it a Tier 1, people aren't willing to prebook it and are willing to take a chance with SB. I'm wondering why they didn't try a different solution first...making Fantasmic a Tier 2? I don't see how having it prebookable via the app, either connected or disconnected from the system, is going to work due to having so few other FP+ options at DHS. To me, if they really want to eliminate long lines of people waiting before the show (either in the FP+ or the SB line) the best solution is to have it prebookable via app and include the ability to pick seats, and have it disconnected from the rest of the system so you're not forcing guests to choose Fantasmic over other options. Having it being prebookable and disconnected is probably within the current technical capabilities (remember the 4th bonus FP+ that was tested at MK?) but I highly doubt seat assignments is something MDE is capable of producing right now.