Alec Baldwin shoots/kills cinematographer and injured director after firing a "prop gun".

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Using "prop" as an adjective to describe the item puts out the thought that it wasn't a real firearm. Using the word "prop" as a noun is what you describe up above. Using it as an adjective describing the gun putting the thought out that it wasn't real is the issue people are taking up.

I fully understood why people here on this thread take issue with it but the explanation other people are giving about it not making a difference to real or fake is accurate nothing bogus about it (that's an opinion that was put forth). Whether you agree with it or not prop gun=what has already been talked about. We here don't matter, it's the industry that has used these terms and it's understood in the industry what it means. Like I said who knows maybe it will change going forward

 

[MakiraMarlena]

if you are saying "puts out the thought" that it wasn't a real firearm, it puts out that thought to whom? If it wasn't a real firearm, it would not have discharged and caused injury to two persons. In industry jargon, that gun was definitely a prop, although it was a real gun. I'm not sure about accusations that the press is trying to deceive laymen, whose opinion on the matter makes no actual difference in the legal procedure, on the nature of the firearm used.

 

[Sinder]

I admit that I always thought of a prop as something fake that was used to convey something real.
I really had no idea that they used real guns capable of firing real ammo on sets.
I assumed the guns used were guns that had been modified internally so that they were rendered incapable of actually firing.
I really don't think the majority of people just know that prop means property when talking about films/movies/theater. So I guess those people would be the "whom". I don't believe the press is trying to outright deceive but let's not pretend that they do their due diligence in reporting all the facts.
Like a pp pointed out, if it was Mr. Baldwin shot and killed the press would probably make sure everyone was aware that it was a real firearm.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Even the title of this thread has “prop gun” in quotations.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

there shouldn't even have been live ammo on the set. According to the armorer, she locked up the guns, but the ammo was just lying around, including live ammo.

There is more than one report that the crew used the set weapons for target shooting, including the very day they were working on the scene where Ms. Hutchins was shot. The armorer said that she loaded the gun. Did she load it with live ammo for the crew to shoot with, or did someone take the gun and reload it? Or did she remove the live ammo and reload it for the scene, and left a live round inside?

This production hired not one, but two persons in roles with responsibility for the set firearms, who had gotten in trouble for misuse of set firearms on other productions.

She should have NEVER had ammo lying around. Period. It should’ve been locked up. I commented earlier a production I was in where guns and blanks were used. Everything was locked up tight.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

I admit that I always thought of a prop as something fake that was used to convey something real.
I really had no idea that they used real guns capable of firing real ammo on sets.
I assumed the guns used were guns that had been modified internally so that they were rendered incapable of actually firing.
I really don't think the majority of people just know that prop means property when talking about films/movies/theater. So I guess those people would be the "whom". I don't believe the press is trying to outright deceive but let's not pretend that they do their due diligence in reporting all the facts.
Like a pp pointed out, if it was Mr. Baldwin shot and killed the press would probably make sure everyone was aware that it was a real firearm.

Yep. Many things you see on stage or screen are real. There are a few exceptions (for example the walking dead universe has multiples of each weapon including green screen covered ones. When they go to do takes with green screen stunt coordinator will come back out to re stage so the camera gets the right angle AND so no one gets hurt if it’s just a cover. Sometimes it’s foam attached to a real knife handle). But most are real.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

there shouldn't even have been live ammo on the set. According to the armorer, she locked up the guns, but the ammo was just lying around, including live ammo.

There is more than one report that the crew used the set weapons for target shooting, including the very day they were working on the scene where Ms. Hutchins was shot. The armorer said that she loaded the gun. Did she load it with live ammo for the crew to shoot with, or did someone take the gun and reload it? Or did she remove the live ammo and reload it for the scene, and left a live round inside?

This production hired not one, but two persons in roles with responsibility for the set firearms, who had gotten in trouble for misuse of set firearms on other productions.

I could’ve sworn I read that the guns were left lying on a table while the crew had lunch.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

I could’ve sworn I read that the guns were left lying on a table while the crew had lunch.

That is scary. And also should NEVER have happened.

 

[bcla]

I didn't catch that, I am not very involved with gun culture, I just shoot recreationally every so often.
We have firearms in our home, that means every single one of us here have learned how to safely use them.
It's just part of being responsible. It doesn't matter if you are gun enthusiast or not, or the type who has every single kind, or carries wherever you go, or hunt or if you just use it to shoot at targets at the range or your own property on weekends. It doesn't matter if you just use it to film a scene in a movie. If you hare going to handle guns, it is your responsibility to always make sure it is safe to do so.
This shouldn't even be looked at in different ways, it is just common sense.

That's what I'm getting at. Many who are familiar with firearms (even just recreationally) can't seem to get around the idea that a person holding a firearm would have enough trust in the work of other people, where it won't be double checked.

But certainly the best practices in the SAG guidelines were that the actor personally witnesses the loading of the firearm, although the actor isn't supposed to touch the ammunition (unless I suppose the scene calls for it).

 

[dominiondad]

That's what I'm getting at. Many who are familiar with firearms (even just recreationally) can't seem to get around the idea that a person holding a firearm would have enough trust in the work of other people, where it won't be double checked.

But certainly the best practices in the SAG guidelines were that the actor personally witnesses the loading of the firearm, although the actor isn't supposed to touch the ammunition (unless I suppose the scene calls for it).

Not only can I not get around that idea, I actually think that idea is so completely irresponsible and reckless that anybody who does it should be held accountable. You could have the 500 most qualified gun experts in the world tell me that a gun I was handed is unloaded, I still wouldn't put the gun to my head and pull the trigger. I suspect Baldwin wouldn't do the same to his own head, although apparently coworkers are a different story.

 

[JimMIA]

The affidavit that's been talked about for a while got released today.

https://www.scribd.com/document/535529331/Rust-Search-Warrant

Thanks for posting that link. It's not the main search warrant. It's a warrant affidavit for a prop truck discovered during the main scene search which was also done with a warrant. That said, this affidavit still contains a lot of helpful information.

The fact that they obtained this search warrant for a vehicle on the set increases my confidence that the Santa Fe Sheriffs Department is conducting a thorough, professional investigation. Vehicles can actually be searched without a search warrant under the Carroll doctrine (Carroll v United States), but it's always preferable to get a warrant if possible. They took an extra few hours and did it the right way.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

That's what I'm getting at. Many who are familiar with firearms (even just recreationally) can't seem to get around the idea that a person holding a firearm would have enough trust in the work of other people, where it won't be double checked.

But certainly the best practices in the SAG guidelines were that the actor personally witnesses the loading of the firearm, although the actor isn't supposed to touch the ammunition (unless I suppose the scene calls for it).

I think sometimes you develop trust to a degree with certain people when you have a longstanding relationship with them and respect their work, etc. Not sure that’s the case here, though. And it still doesn’t let anyone off the hook for not checking the gun every step of the way if that was the policy.

In my job as a nurse, I am responsible for what I do, and what I give, even if a doctor has ordered something and a pharmacist has prepared it, etc. With certain medications that can be particularly dangerous, there even has to be two RNs checking it, with two places to sign off on it, before that drug can be administered. “Near misses” occur all the time. That means that someone is expected to catch an error at some point along the chain before it reaches a patient - policies are in place for that very reason. The catastrophic cases that you read about probably should’ve been a near miss, but instead became a sentinel event, often because proper procedures weren’t followed. That is how I see this. Each one of them had a responsibility to check that gun for all of their safety. Relying on someone else’s word - even when it’s another licensed professional - just isn’t enough. Everyone on that team is responsible. It must be the case in your line of work, too.

 

[JimMIA]

Not only can I not get around that idea, I actually think that idea is so completely irresponsible and reckless that anybody who does it should be held accountable. You could have the 500 most qualified gun experts in the world tell me that a gun I was handed is unloaded, I still wouldn't put the gun to my head and pull the trigger. I suspect Baldwin wouldn't do the same to his own head, although apparently coworkers are a different story.

I don't know about Baldwin's attitude toward his co-workers (there is some info in the search warrant affidavit that indicates he was safety-conscious regarding others), but I agree with you on the gun safety question.

I don't care if someone else checked a weapon right in front of me prior to handing it to me, I would still stop and take a few seconds to ensure the weapon was safe before handling it.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I could’ve sworn I read that the guns were left lying on a table while the crew had lunch.

Could not find the article again, but a different one I found said the guns had been locked up in a cart on a prop truck during lunch, but that others beside the armorer had a key for it, too. So who knows.

 

[bcla]

Thanks for posting that link. It's not the main search warrant. It's a warrant affidavit for a prop truck discovered during the main scene search which was also done with a warrant. That said, this affidavit still contains a lot of helpful information.

The fact that they obtained this search warrant for a vehicle on the set increases my confidence that the Santa Fe Sheriffs Department is conducting a thorough, professional investigation. Vehicles can actually be searched without a search warrant under the Carroll doctrine (Carroll v United States), but it's always preferable to get a warrant if possible. They took an extra few hours and did it the right way.

I think the first page was the actual search warrant, and the affidavit was attached. There are other sources. Deadline has it, but not the first page.

It also mentions a previous search warrant on the premises - which doesn't seem to have been publicly released yet. Still - this is a lot of information that was only hinted at before.

 

[bcla]

Even the title of this thread has “prop gun” in quotations.

Even the detectives who wrote the affidavit that was attached to the search warrant used the term "prop-gun".

 

[DLgal]

She should have NEVER had ammo lying around. Period. It should’ve been locked up. I commented earlier a production I was in where guns and blanks were used. Everything was locked up tight.

Yup. This is one of the many failures that led to this incident. And whose responsibility is that? The armorer. At this point, I feel like she could absolutely be held criminally liable. She failed on ALL counts here.

She loaded the bullets into that gun and she "accidentally" put a live round in with a bunch of blanks. That is inexcusable.

 

[DLgal]

Even the detectives who wrote the affidavit that was attached to the search warrant used the term "prop-gun".

Well, yeah, because that's what it was. It wasn't someone's personal gun they brought to the set.

 

[lifesavacation]

I am not accustomed to guns. But here’s what I keep thinking. If it were Baldwin’s own wife, or kids, that were in the room that day, would he have treated the gun he was handling differently? If so, then he acted negligently not checking it no matter who was in the room.

I agree. I also think if the AD handed him the gun and told him to put it to his head and pull the trigger, he would have double checked.He owed everyone in that room with the gun the same level of meticulous gun handling.

 

[DLgal]

Not only can I not get around that idea, I actually think that idea is so completely irresponsible and reckless that anybody who does it should be held accountable. You could have the 500 most qualified gun experts in the world tell me that a gun I was handed is unloaded, I still wouldn't put the gun to my head and pull the trigger. I suspect Baldwin wouldn't do the same to his own head, although apparently coworkers are a different story.

It has already been reported that we do not KNOW that he pointed the gun at ANYONE nor do we even know he pulled the trigger. Guns DO sometimes go off without a person consciously pulling the trigger, either when dropped or mishandled. It happens all the time in accidental shootings. Alec was practicing a move where he had to cross draw the gun. It is very possible he lost grip of the gun and accidentally shot it or he dropped it and it went off. Guns are mechanical objects subject to failures.

I think everyone would do well to stop insinuating that he intentionally pointed at these victims and pulled the trigger.