Alec Baldwin shoots/kills cinematographer and injured director after firing a "prop gun".

[bcla]

I think officially prop guns actually are altered that they can only fire blanks which are more like caps and not in bullet casings.. any gun can be a prop but not all guns used for props should be called prop guns.

The movie and TV industry calls anything used in a set a prop. Again, it's short for property.

The most definitive source for firearms used in movies and TV is the Internet Firearms Movie Database. They have a Wikipedia style format, and they have a lot of gun enthusiasts added to their entries on different movies as well as some for specific actors. Their entry on Alec Baldwin actually mentions the incident on Rust even though it's not officially in the database.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Alec_Baldwin

They don't list Alec Baldwin as previously ever using a single-action revolver in movies or TV.

Whoever contributes to these entries are hardcore about absolute accuracy. Since automatic weapons are harder to procure, many film armorers modify semiautomatic weapons and modify them. They even comment on replica firearms, especially a brand called "Non Guns" that are made for the entertainment industry. In some ways these guns are more expensive, but for some low budget movies a real one might actually be cheaper than paying for realistic looking special effects. I've watched some stuff from Asia (where real guns are hard to obtain) where the explosions and gunshots often look super fake using cheap special effects.

 

[TLSnell1981]

That's a stretch! A police officer is paid to handle a loaded firearm and has the right to use it. Alec Baldwin is paid to handle a safe, empty, unloaded gun that will pretend to go boom. Of course he bears some responsibility here, but ultimately (in my personal opinion) it is with the person whose JOB it was to ensure gun safety on the set.

What about the person who hired the inexperienced armorer and AD with gun safety issues in previous films AND on this set?

 

[bcla]

While his job title isn't "professional gun handler", this particular job he had required him to use a firearm.
Anyone that handles a gun, whether it is for their profession, or hobby, or whatever, is responsible for making sure it is safe. If on a movie set an actor is paid to handle a safe, empty, unloaded gun (which isn't exactly true if they are using blanks- that means they are in fact "loaded", just not with a projectile bullet) then that actor does have the responsibility themselves to make sure it is safe to use. Just like anyone else that would have a gun in their hand. Nobody should ever just rely on someone telling them it's unloaded. That is at least one irresponsible action that Alec Baldwin committed that day. He pulled the trigger without checking, the buck stops with him.

I get that you're approaching this from the point of view of a gun enthusiast who had it drilled that the person with the gun is always responsible for knowing what's in the firearm. It's probably a foreign concept to you that an actor may just take the word of someone else that's it's "cold". Certainly best practices weren't necessarily followed, but like it or not, culpability is often transferred when someone is paid to be the expert to do all that. But we do that a lot in our lives with things that could be very dangerous. Simple errors could result in very dangerous outcomes with cars, motorcycles, or bicycles. I mentioned a zip line. Or someone going up a climbing wall.

We're probably not going to agree, but I totally understand your point of view. And certainly I would agree that someone who goes target shooting or hunting should know all that. However, I don't know if you've ever fired blanks before, or if you've ever loaded a dummy round before just for appearances.

 

[low-key]

this is so sad

 

[JimMIA]

However, I don't know if you've ever fired blanks before,

I have -- lots of times, for training purposes.

or if you've ever loaded a dummy round before just for appearances.

 

[bcla]

I have -- lots of times, for training purposes.

I don't think most people will have ever used blanks. But I've seen some weird stuff too like shot shells for handguns. The rangemaster at the store/range said they were usually for shooting at snakes.

But again, the problem with the shooting of Hutchins was that they were using dummy rounds that might have been confused with live rounds that the crew may have brought on set to go plinking with the same guns. And the improper use of rigged dummy rounds was what led to the shooting of Brandon Lee.

 

[Sinder]

I get that you're approaching this from the point of view of a gun enthusiast who had it drilled that the person with the gun is always responsible for knowing what's in the firearm. It's probably a foreign concept to you that an actor may just take the word of someone else that's it's "cold". Certainly best practices weren't necessarily followed, but like it or not, culpability is often transferred when someone is paid to be the expert to do all that. But we do that a lot in our lives with things that could be very dangerous. Simple errors could result in very dangerous outcomes with cars, motorcycles, or bicycles. I mentioned a zip line. Or someone going up a climbing wall.

We're probably not going to agree, but I totally understand your point of view. And certainly I would agree that someone who goes target shooting or hunting should know all that. However, I don't know if you've ever fired blanks before, or if you've ever loaded a dummy round before just for appearances.

I've never shot blanks, but I have used dummy ammo for dry firing.
Same rules apply as if you were firing live ammo. You treat a gun as if it is always loaded.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I get that you're approaching this from the point of view of a gun enthusiast who had it drilled that the person with the gun is always responsible for knowing what's in the firearm. It's probably a foreign concept to you that an actor may just take the word of someone else that's it's "cold". Certainly best practices weren't necessarily followed, but like it or not, culpability is often transferred when someone is paid to be the expert to do all that. But we do that a lot in our lives with things that could be very dangerous. Simple errors could result in very dangerous outcomes with cars, motorcycles, or bicycles. I mentioned a zip line. Or someone going up a climbing wall.

We're probably not going to agree, but I totally understand your point of view. And certainly I would agree that someone who goes target shooting or hunting should know all that. However, I don't know if you've ever fired blanks before, or if you've ever loaded a dummy round before just for appearances.

Gun enthusiast or Gun nut is an American colloquial term that describes firearms "hobbyists" who are very involved with the gun culture. Not everyone who uses or possess a firearm falls into that category. Many are taught common sense rules regarding guns. First and foremost...treat every weapon as if it's loaded. Depending on another especially someone with a background of negligence and/or gun accidents isn't advised. If he was told to put the gun to his head I believe he would've spent a few seconds personally inspecting the weapon JMO Allegedly many actors already do this when using firearms on the set. IMO Alec Baldwin didn't intentionally shoot two employees...killing one. Although I believe he was extremely careless in many instances. ANYONE using a gun for ANY reason should have knowledge of the firearm and experience with safety precautions. Otherwise it often doesn't end well.

 

[bcla]

The affidavit that's been talked about for a while got released today.

https://www.scribd.com/document/535529331/Rust-Search-Warrant

This article is from AP, but this version seems to have more details than the version I found on the APNews website. The gun used was an Italian reproduction of a Colt. It's been referred to as a .45 Colt and the reporting is that it took cartridges, which I understand was pretty common as a conversion for original versions if they weren't already made to take cartridges.

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/live-ammo-set-mystery-baldwin-shooting-80828008​

It's unclear whether Baldwin deliberately pulled the trigger or if the gun went off inadvertently.​

​

In the commotion after the shooting, Halls found the weapon — a black revolver manufactured by an Italian company that specializes in 19th century reproductions — on a church pew.​

​

He brought it to Gutierrez Reed and told her to open it so he could see what was inside. There were at least four dummy bullet casings, with the small hole in the side, he told detectives.​

​

There was one empty casing. It had no hole.​

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I am not accustomed to guns. But here’s what I keep thinking. If it were Baldwin’s own wife, or kids, that were in the room that day, would he have treated the gun he was handling differently? If so, then he acted negligently not checking it no matter who was in the room.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

And I’m sorry, but the Hollywood hypocrisy also really bothers me. They criticize others about using guns, but it’s ok for them to use them in movies, for personal protection, and to make money off of them.

 

[pahoben]

And I’m sorry, but the Hollywood hypocrisy also really bothers me. They criticize others about using guns, but it’s ok for them to use them in movies, for personal protection, and to make money off of them.

I think I can see the real Baldwin starting to peek out from his veil of virtue and caring. Yes, yes, that was him that retweeted a statement from the AD saying that he didn't inspect the gun as he should have before handing it to Baldwin.

Baldwin will do everything possible to blame this on others rather than to honestly admit he was supposed to check the gun as the set safety procedures required and didn't. Also admit that he didnt follow the safety procedures for pointing a gun on set. Also state that he fell victim to the greed that he has so raged against and hence oversaw one of the most unsafe movie sets in film history in the interests of saving a few dollars. And so now as a result of his negligence a mother is dead and a child motherless.

But nope the honorable path will not be taken by this self professed paradigm of virtue and caring but rather the personal interest driven low path of scapegoating and protection by high dollar lawyers.

 

[dominiondad]

I don't think most people will have ever used blanks. But I've seen some weird stuff too like shot shells for handguns. The rangemaster at the store/range said they were usually for shooting at snakes.

But again, the problem with the shooting of Hutchins was that they were using dummy rounds that might have been confused with live rounds that the crew may have brought on set to go plinking with the same guns. And the improper use of rigged dummy rounds was what led to the shooting of Brandon Lee.

I mentioned before, I carried a gun everyday for 24 years. As part of my training, I used dummy rounds, blanks, simunition, and and a huge variety of live rounds. I also have hunted and shot recreationally for at least 30 years. I used to own a bunch of guns, but lost them in a tragic boating accident. Never have I ever heard anybody imply, infer, or even suggest that the person holding the gun was anything other than 100% responsible for how it was handled. Other people can also have a role in ensuring the gun is operated safely, but ultimately, it's the person holding the gun.
This is not an acting issue, this is a gun responsibility issue, and Baldwin failed. He, and likely others, should be held accountable.

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

I still his responsibility might change if Alec knew of or more importantly was know to be one of the one shooting guns with live ammo prior to filming.

 

[dominiondad]

Perhaps if Baldwin had spent a little less time telling the police and NRA that he knows better, and a little more time asking them for advice, Halyna would be alive today.

 

[TwoMisfits]

What if Alec was the dead one, and the poorer class staff were the ones to kill him? Would there even be a question at this point of charges if the roles were reversed and the cinematographer was the one who was in the "practicing the shot role" and hit Baldwin while he talked, after knowing the gun history and the safety issues on set, after not checking the barrel, and after somehow letting her finger be near enough to the trigger to shoot and to shoot in the direction of people?

Nah, rather than being able to fly to the Hamptons to hide out, she'd have been charged by the next day and blacklisted out of Hollywood permanently for killing the big star. And we'd be having memorials and flower gardens for Alec with 24-7 coverage of his death for a week...

 

[Sinder]

Gun enthusiast or Gun nut is an American colloquial term that describes firearms "hobbyists" who are very involved with the gun culture. Not everyone who uses or possess a firearm falls into that category. Many are taught common sense rules regarding guns. First and foremost...treat every weapon as if it's loaded. Depending on another especially someone with a background of negligence and/or gun accidents isn't advised. If he was told to put the gun to his head I believe he would've spent a few seconds personally inspecting the weapon JMO Allegedly many actors already do this when using firearms on the set. IMO Alec Baldwin didn't intentionally shoot two employees...killing one. Although I believe he was extremely careless in many instances. ANYONE using a gun for ANY reason should have knowledge of the firearm and experience safety precautions. Otherwise it often doesn't end well.

I didn't catch that, I am not very involved with gun culture, I just shoot recreationally every so often.
We have firearms in our home, that means every single one of us here have learned how to safely use them.
It's just part of being responsible. It doesn't matter if you are gun enthusiast or not, or the type who has every single kind, or carries wherever you go, or hunt or if you just use it to shoot at targets at the range or your own property on weekends. It doesn't matter if you just use it to film a scene in a movie. If you hare going to handle guns, it is your responsibility to always make sure it is safe to do so.
This shouldn't even be looked at in different ways, it is just common sense.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

Doesn't it just mean property?

Correct. Prop is short for property of the actor using it. When I was a prop master for theatre shows, you should’ve seen how organized I was. No one touched anything unless it was theirs, everything was labeled and had a place, sometimes an actor would ask me to handle something and I’d have my own track backstage to give it to them (for example I propmastered a production of the Wedding Singer and the Robbie would come through the aisle towards the end of the show. The actor asked if I could meet him with the guitar and ring in the ring box. About five minutes before I’d grab the ring, get the guitar out of the case and head to the back of house. A few minutes later he would appear, id hand him the ring for him to put in his pocket and I then would hand him the guitar.) I have even had actors sign contracts if they were using their own property (community theatre production of Legally Blonde where everyone used their own phones and laptops) and once the show closed I handed back the contracts to the company so nothing could happen.
Regardless, a gun-real or fake-is a prop. And should be treated as live.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

there shouldn't even have been live ammo on the set. According to the armorer, she locked up the guns, but the ammo was just lying around, including live ammo.

There is more than one report that the crew used the set weapons for target shooting, including the very day they were working on the scene where Ms. Hutchins was shot. The armorer said that she loaded the gun. Did she load it with live ammo for the crew to shoot with, or did someone take the gun and reload it? Or did she remove the live ammo and reload it for the scene, and left a live round inside?

This production hired not one, but two persons in roles with responsibility for the set firearms, who had gotten in trouble for misuse of set firearms on other productions.

 

[mrodgers]

The definition of a prop does not distinguish between real or fake. Props mean just about anything really that an actor uses. Nothing bogus about it.

A different topic of discussion, which I believe this thread had, was whether a fake gun is as easily distinguished between a real gun but a fake gun and a real gun are both prop guns when handed to an actor to be used.

Using "prop" as an adjective to describe the item puts out the thought that it wasn't a real firearm. Using the word "prop" as a noun is what you describe up above. Using it as an adjective describing the gun putting the thought out that it wasn't real is the issue people are taking up.