Air Canada cutting 2,000 jobs, trimming capacity

[bavaria]

Keep in mind that a full plane does not always equal a profitable plane. That is why leisure routes tend to be the first to be reduced.

 

[declansdad]

I have accepted that outside of Toronto there are not many Leafs fans, so it's something I have accepted and don't let it get to me.

Just kidding with you, being a habs fan it is something I have to do.

 

[minnie56]

My friend works for AC...he tells me that the routes that they can make money on are the ones where Business class is full and they carry lots of cargo...I am thinking that's not likely the case with too many Florida bound flts.

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

My friend works for AC...he tells me that the routes that they can make money on are the ones where Business class is full and they carry lots of cargo...I am thinking that's not likely the case with too many Florida bound flts.

Whenever we have flown Air Canada Business Class was always full when we got on the plane.

 

[bavaria]

Whenever we have flown Air Canada Business Class was always full when we got on the plane.

But chances are that those people are not all paying revenue for those seats. They are most likely flying on points.

There are many routes where business class is full with full fare business class customers. Leisure routes typically have a much higher ratio of award customers, in all classes of service.

Leisure routes also have fewer flyers like me, who buy tickets at 0-7 days in advance, and pay hundreds or even thousands more than the lower fares on the same route.

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

But chances are that those people are not all paying revenue for those seats. They are most likely flying on points.

There are many routes where business class is full with full fare business class customers. Leisure routes typically have a much higher ratio of award customers, in all classes of service.

Leisure routes also have fewer flyers like me, who buy tickets at 0-7 days in advance, and pay hundreds or even thousands more than the lower fares on the same route.

Well that maybe true I am just saying what I have seen, so there is no way to tell who paid for their seats and who used points.

 

[minnie56]

Well--there are only 2 Aeroplan seats available per flight ..thing is, it's usually pretty small aircraft used for Florida flights so I would think not a huge revenue? Plus many seated there can be employess that have been assigned seats when the back is full

 

[bavaria]

Well that maybe true I am just saying what I have seen, so there is no way to tell who paid for their seats and who used points.

Carriers are cutting routes to leisure destinations first, as those have the lowest revenue per mile. Las Vegas is seeing very significant cuts, as is Orlando and other leisure destinations.

A full flight does not mean that the airline is actually making any money on the flight.

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

Well--there are only 2 Aeroplan seats available per flight ..thing is, it's usually pretty small aircraft used for Florida flights so I would think not a huge revenue? Plus many seated there can be employess that have been assigned seats when the back is full

Well the type of plane we are flying in December on Air Canada is a Airbus A321-200 (321) and from what I see it's not a small plane. Plus it has 38 rows, so to me that sounds like a big number. As for the Aeroplan seats are you referring to Executive Class or Economy? A few years ago my Dad had enough points for 3 Executive Class seats and for this December he had enough points for 3 Economy seats.

 

[minnie56]

Well the type of plane we are flying in December on Air Canada is a Airbus A321-200 (321) and from what I see it's not a small plane. As for the Aeroplan seats are you referring to Business Class or Economy? A few years ago my Dad had enough points for 3 Business Class seats and for this December he had enough for 3 Economy seats.

It could indeed vary for US flights..my friends (3 people) redeemed Aeroplan miles this coming Sept to Rome (they hope) and though they had the miles, were told only 2 Aeroplan seats per flight in Executive class were avail. So one is in Exec and the other 2 in Economy.

 

[bavaria]

Well the type of plane we are flying in December on Air Canada is a Airbus A321-200 (321) and from what I see it's not a small plane. Plus it has 38 rows, so to me that sounds like a big number. As for the Aeroplan seats are you referring to Executive Class or Economy? A few years ago my Dad had enough points for 3 Executive Class seats and for this December he had enough points for 3 Economy seats.

The Airbus twins 319/320 are most fuel efficient, but all of AC's Airbus fleet is more fuel efficient than the aircraft commonly flown by many US carriers (UA for instance is retiring all of its 737s)

The number of Aeroplan seats does vary.

 

[minnie56]

The Airbus twins 319/320 are most fuel efficient, but all of AC's Airbus fleet is more fuel efficient than the aircraft commonly flown by many US carriers (UA for instance is retiring all of its 737s)

The number of Aeroplan seats does vary.

The 737 is Boeings equivalent to the AB320 size-wise right?
Do the aeroplan seats vary in Exec class as well?

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

I always knew the number of Aeroplan seats did vary, because they might release so many per flight. So someone maybe out of luck if they wanted to use their points. For the flights were taking to Orlando and home from Tampa, we booked them on February 1st which was the 1st day you could book a return flight starting in Janurary 2009. If you tried booking threw points online before February 1st for the dates we are going, the latest date you could fly home was December 31, 2008.

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

Do the aeroplan seats vary in Exec class as well?

Like I said before the only time we ever used points for Executive Class was a few years ago and we were lucky to get 3 seats, so I am not sure if things have changed since then.

 

[bavaria]

The 737 is Boeings equivalent to the AB320 size-wise right?
Do the aeroplan seats vary in Exec class as well?

Yes, capacity wise they are similar to the 737-800 series. The older model 737s are the least fuel efficient, hence the reason that US carriers are retiring them.

Award availability varies by routing and class, and some carriers will add availability at the last minute. There are a few sites which allow users to check award availability by fare bucket.

AC's award system is quite unique as they guarantee an award seat on flights, but for significantly higher amounts. Most US carriers have a 'saver' and 'standard' type award structure.

 

[Thumper_ehhhhh]

Air Canada can cite any number of reasons for cutting costs and jobs, but they need to recognize that they have the poorest customer service of any airline which probably makes alot of us travel on the US airlines.

Nope makes me wanna drive. No matter which way you go prices are going up. At least if you drive it your trip cant be canceled because someone decides it's best.

 

[bavaria]

I do think that AC is in a far better position that the US carriers. I posted an article last week about how European carriers are not having the same crisis as US carriers. Many of those factors apply to AC and the Canadian airline business.

- Fuel efficient fleets: both Canadian and European fleets tend to have a higher percentage of newer and more fuel efficient models

- Mergers/bankruptcies: over the past 15 years Europe saw several mergers or airlines going out of business (KLM/Air France, LH/SWISS, etc). Same holds true for the Canadian market

- Fuel hedging: other than SW, US carriers did not hedge fuel at substantial amounts

- Reduction in capacity on non-profitable routes: European carriers regularly evaluate and trim routes; AC does the same

- Profitable fares: compare the 'average' US cross country fare to the 'average' cross country Canadian fare. The Canadian fare is several hundreds of dollars more. The US fares were underpriced for years, and continued to decline. Now passengers have a lot of pain as those fares increase to a 'reasonable' amount (not 'reasonable' in many passengers' eyes, but is $198 round trip making the airline any money?)

Remember, the largest cut in capacity for AC is routes to/from the US, not domestic routes. Those cuts reflect in large part the situation in the US economy and decline in US visitors to Canada.

 

[declansdad]

I do think that AC is in a far better position that the US carriers. I posted an article last week about how European carriers are not having the same crisis as US carriers. Many of those factors apply to AC and the Canadian airline business.

- Fuel efficient fleets: both Canadian and European fleets tend to have a higher percentage of newer and more fuel efficient models

- Mergers/bankruptcies: over the past 15 years Europe saw several mergers or airlines going out of business (KLM/Air France, LH/SWISS, etc). Same holds true for the Canadian market

- Fuel hedging: other than SW, US carriers did not hedge fuel at substantial amounts

- Reduction in capacity on non-profitable routes: European carriers regularly evaluate and trim routes; AC does the same

- Profitable fares: compare the 'average' US cross country fare to the 'average' cross country Canadian fare. The Canadian fare is several hundreds of dollars more. The US fares were underpriced for years, and continued to decline. Now passengers have a lot of pain as those fares increase to a 'reasonable' amount (not 'reasonable' in many passengers' eyes, but is $198 round trip making the airline any money?)

Remember, the largest cut in capacity for AC is routes to/from the US, not domestic routes. Those cuts reflect in large part the situation in the US economy and decline in US visitors to Canada.

You make some very good points but the sad truth for AC is that the average fare is higher than most Canadians can afford. I think they are in for more trouble before things get any better.

 

[minnie56]

I agree, sort of.

It amazes me really that I can fly to Rome return for $1,000 give or take but it cost almost $150 rtn for a train to Kingston, Ont? I really think that given the fuel costs and landing fees...the costs are not that exorbinant. Of course, it is still much cheaper out of Buffalo..for now

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

You make some very good points but the sad truth for AC is that the average fare is higher than most Canadians can afford. I think they are in for more trouble before things get any better.

I think one reason for the higher fares on Air Canada is because their main competition is WestJet, plus the fact that they fly to more locations. Let's not forget unlike in the United States there are more Airlines like United, American, Delta, US Airways, Southwest and JetBlue, so Americans would have more options in terms of who they want to fly with.