Advise - $3500 problem after closing on my first resale contract with contract

[shawnbrig]

Once upon a time ... this is a hot mess. I just got contacted by email from the resale company in Florida at 10:10 pm. I call the agent back 10 minutes later no answer. Please give me some suggestions, direction, and advise. Lord help me, this is a great reason to start a vlog to help someone else avoid this situation. I am just not sure if you could.

In February 2021 I saw an August use year 330 point Riviera Resort on the resale market for $135 per point.
156 points in the 2020 use year banked from 2019, 330 points from August 2020 for a total of 486 points in the 2020 use year, points coming in August 2021 -330, and August 2022 - 330. Advertised 486/330/330 Advertised listing 156 - 2019, 330 - 2020, 330 - 2021, 330 - 2022 and I pay the dues at closing for the 2021 points coming in August.

So I offer asking price at $135 because I thought it was a good deal because of the length of the RR contract compared to the other DVC properties (even with the restrictions). The agent at the resale company advised because of covid and DVC resales on the rise that it would take about 3-4 months to close. The agent called me and asked me if I would like to have the seller bank the 2020 points into 2021. I said yes and he confirmed that the seller banked the 2020 points into August 2021 use year. Now I assumed ... you know where the story is going anytime you hear the word assumed ... what's that saying? When you assume you make an A out of you and me. Why am I laughing out loud? I guess because it's just a crazy situation. I need to make this into a video so you can see my range of emotions, and facial expressions. An error is an error ... nope not so much. A mortgage error is not like messing up on an entrée.

So back to the story, I paid about $11,000 at closing and financed the rest. So based on what was advertised I am thinking the point allocation would now be 156 - 2020 (expires July 31, 2020) 660 - 2021, and 330 - 2022. I knew I would not be able to use the 156 points banked from 2019 in the two months window because I can only use RR points at RR and I am competing with the other resort owners between 0-7 months. RR is pretty much sold out during the 0-7 month period and 100% sold out in the 2 month window. I decided I would transfer to RCI, Disney collection, or what ever. I was still happy with the contract because I had 330 points banked into 2021, I didn't have to pay the hefty dues on. The plan then was to rent the 660 points in the 2021 use year at $20 per point and take that $13,000 to pay down the mortgage. Beautiful!

I see this post is already to long but let's keep reading. OK so I get the email from Disney about my new membership. I log into my account and there were 0 points. I called a few days later and while on the phone they loaded the points. So I get off the phone and log in and see. TAKE A BREATH. 330 points (expiring July 31, 2021) 486 - 2021, 330 - 2022. I think, Oh DVC in a rush to enter the points transposed information and thought there were 156 points banked into 2020 not the reality of 330. Oh gosh let me call them back and tell them about their error. I call back and DVC advised the points were correct, and I got an explanation. I call up the resale company right after, he pulls up the ad, I send him a screen shot of their ad I had sent to a friend.

Long story short, the previous member had bank all 330 - 2019 points into 2020, then need to use 174 points but since there were no points in 2019 and banking is a final transaction they ended up borrowing 174 points from 2020. So it was not Shawn Bright that assumed anything other than assuming that what the resale company advertised was correct. So on ONE of the phone conversations with the agent, he is looking over the screen shots of the sellers points in their account that are required when contacting them. The agent reads over the fact that the 2019 points were banked, then 2020 points were borrowed. I am sure the agent is not the one who inputs the data, or lists it on the webpage, but the company listed the point allocation incorrectly. Back to my entrée analogy, I can't just say this is wrong, place take it back and give me back my money, thank you. Unless someone can tell me I can do that, shouldn't I have some protection?

Now I will let you in on what the resale company's solution to their problem. Let me get my quotations out.

"We will be happy to furnish you with 174 points from 2020 which is what your contract promised.

We will need you to essentially return the 174 points you have from 2019 as we need back what is incorrect in exchange for what is correct. Unfortunately Disney will not permit you to transfer the 2019 points because they have already been banked so returning them to us involves a Rental process _________________________blah blah blah___________________________.

Once we have the Rental process started we will then have 174 points transferred into your account essentially swapping points to the correct Use Year fixing the description error.

We will make you whole in points not in dollars as the error is not in the total of the points received (the correct amount were transferred). The error is in the year in which the points are assigned.

If you elect to take the route of us returning points to you that is instead of the opportunity for a reduced selling fee which was an offer intended to make you whole in a more simplistic manner. If we return the points to you and settle the issue and you decide to list with us our fee will be the rate at that time (current fee listed here)

If you wish to proceed ______ will have the ____________ begin the process of having you complete a rental agreement and then replace the 174 points promptly.

Sorry for the issue. We will move swiftly to correct it."


So I am only going to comment on two sections that I think are interesting.

We will be happy to furnish you with 174 points from 2020 which is what your contract promised = if you give me 2020 points they will expire on July 31st 2021 in two months. The 156 - 2020 points I purchased were banked into 2021 and not expire till July 31st 2022. The banking window has long passed and they would need to transfer Aug 2021 point to correct their mistake. Um didn't they pride themselves on years of DVC experience and even having staff that worked for DVC in the past ... um OK right

If you wish to proceed ______ will have the ____________ begin the process of having you complete a rental agreement and then replace the 174 points promptly.

Sorry for the issue. We will move swiftly to correct it." = So what your telling me is ... your company made a mistake ... you want to hold my points hostage till I sign an agreement. Listen to how that sounds you do what we want you to do and then we will correct our mistake. What kind of customer service is this, um where is my I am so sorry Shawn, I would also like to give you bank for the stress our misrepresentation has cause. Relax, relate, release. I can relax and calm down, release by not looking at the contract for the last 4 days. I can relate to mistakes happening, but I can not relate to how they want to go about fixing it and by holding onto my points. It should have been: I am so sorry Shawn we will get your 2021 points transferred to you right away and work out a rental process for the 174 - 2019 points. Shawn we would also like to offer you a $3,000 gift certificate to show how sorry we are. (gift certificate only good on the moon)

I could just be a drama queen, and over reacting. Oh Shawn, it's only a mortgage error and $3480 ($20 X 174), you are over reacting! Um I worked Friday, Saturday, and Sunday from 4 am till 7 pm, so no it's not just money, it's time, aggravation dealing with co workers, my car not starting at 3:30 am (I still don't know why, nothing was left on), it's not just dollars. The email about is was from Wednesday June 2nd, so I have had my cooling off period and my mind is clear.

So Disboards I ask how do we proceed?
So do I begin by calling for an inquire of the agents real estate license?
Do I try to file a complaint with the regulatory agency that handles mortgages?

And they all lived happily ever after,

Shawn

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Did your contract outline what UY the points were to be in? (I assume it did) Did that reflect the banking of 330 points? Or if not was an addendum completed for the banking?
And then did your contract outline what you would receive if the points were not received?

And yes, they need to match what was listed in the UY. That's just silly to state you received the number of points listed so it doesn't matter what UY they were in.

IMO they need to either reimburse you with an actual payment for the 174 points or they need to transfer you points that will be valid for you to use in your next UY. It is possible for them to transfer you points from a different UY that could still be banked. Otherwise I would ask for 174 2021 points. This is all assuming the contract states what you said (not just the listing) then they need to make it right. I think you only talked about the listing but not the contract which is the legal agreement that both parties agreed to.

 

[Eldon32]

What does your offer/closing documents say about points not delivered? While I'm not a lawyer; I would say that the terms of the contract govern how the missing points should be handled. Extra points are probably not covered and I would say are at the return expense of the seller (or in this case, the agent since they appear to be admitting fault?). Ultimately, if the seller signed the points were available on the offer/closing docs - even if it's the fault of the agent the seller would have presented them to you.

That being said; many closing agreements do not contain what has to occur should the points not be available. In that case; it's up to how much your time is worth vs what you think you can get out of it.

 

[shawnbrig]

Hey KAT4DISNEY,

So the contract is just a copy of the contract used when purchasing direct from Disney. On the resale contract it just stipulates that it is a 330 point contract with an August use year and ownership of some miniscule percentage of unit ____. There is no specific language that stated your contract will include 156 - 2019 points, 2020 - 330. So besides my screen shots, the agent admitting over the phone there was an error on their end, and the email, nothing is written. Most of communication was with the resale agent but the email text in quotations came from the CEO of the resale company, with my sales agent carbon copied. It sounds like they know something went wrong. If I called Disney tomorrow and bought a 330 direct contract tomorrow with an August. They would give me 330 August 2020 points and August 2021 points would be coming in a few months. If I remember correctly the contract does not say you will be given 330 beginning August 2020 points it just says 330 points per year. Maybe they do and all 15 times so far I trusted Disney LOL. No really I am in Texas and I get my point the day after I add on. The contract arrives a couple of days later.

Thanks,

Shawn Bright

Did your contract outline what UY the points were to be in? (I assume it did) Did that reflect the banking of 330 points? Or if not was an addendum completed for the banking?
And then did your contract outline what you would receive if the points were not received?

And yes, they need to match what was listed in the UY. That's just silly to state you received the number of points listed so it doesn't matter what UY they were in.

IMO they need to either reimburse you with an actual payment for the 174 points or they need to transfer you points that will be valid for you to use in your next UY. It is possible for them to transfer you points from a different UY that could still be banked. Otherwise I would ask for 174 2021 points. This is all assuming the contract states what you said (not just the listing) then they need to make it right. I think you only talked about the listing but not the contract which is the legal agreement that both parties agreed to.

 

[shawnbrig]

Thanks for posting Eldon32,

Closing documents on my resale contract say absolutely nothing about previous years points. I just looked at one of my Disney direct contracts as well. I purchased in January 5, 2016 but it says 100 points will begin February 2015. Buying direct would not require additional information so I am fine with the Disney direct contract. Resale should be more detailed if there are additional points. The agent was reading and flipping papers, so I assume it was something the seller filled out prior to listing with them.

All _______ ( <--- insert what would be a reasonable number of contracts that a DVC member would have then add 10) of my contracts were direct with no problems. First resale contract, paid asking to make it quick, passed ROFR, but cheaper prices sometimes gets you a "cheaper" level of customer service. It's worth my time to hopefully have this resale company understand its mistake, and a post like this will hopefully inform other people looking at the resale market to think twice about buying on the secondary market. Buyers should at least request your closing documents list your point totals and where they are allocated.

The resale company should say sorry for messing up my dinner and apologize by saying have dessert on us. I have a sneaky feeling resale contracts are written this way on purpose.

So in my case there is no mention of the 156 points from 2019, or the 330 from 2020 . The only thing mentioned is that 330 points and an August use year. So what we are saying is the resale company can list anything they want 5000 points in 2019, 5000 points in 2020 and 330 going forward using the contract that I have. Based on the contract I have I would just be out the points because they are not listed? um I think that would be deceptive.

Shawn

What does your offer/closing documents say about points not delivered? While I'm not a lawyer; I would say that the terms of the contract govern how the missing points should be handled. Extra points are probably not covered and I would say are at the return expense of the seller (or in this case, the agent since they appear to be admitting fault?). Ultimately, if the seller signed the points were available on the offer/closing docs - even if it's the fault of the agent the seller would have presented them to you.

That being said; many closing agreements do not contain what has to occur should the points not be available. In that case; it's up to how much your time is worth vs what you think you can get out of it.

 

[shawnbrig]

Does anyone who has purchase resale have the point allocations listed on their closing documents. Really interested to here from people with stripped contracts. Would they notate no points coming till August 2022? Contract heavy loaded like mine, did they list the allocation of your banked points from two different years?

Thanks,

Shawn

 

[RoseGold]

Shouldn’t your contract should show exactly what it would contain and a dollar amount if the points don’t show up? Sometimes sellers use points while waiting to close.

 

[shawnbrig]

Hey RoseGold,

So the Title company document titled - Occupancy and Use disclosure says.

"Under a bound contract or other agreement, the Seller has represented the property referenced above to be 330 points with every use year. Seller also makes formal assurances that the buyers' to receive 156 banked points from August 2019 that will expire July 31, 2021 and 330 banked points from August 2020 and 330 points coming August 2021 and 330 points coming august 2022 and forward.

Buyer understands that ____ title company only guarantees title only."


It goes on to say we as a company in no way guarantee the sellers' claims. Buyer acknowledges that ______ title company is held harmless against misrepresentations made by the seller.

Shouldn’t your contract should show exactly what it would contain and a dollar amount if the points don’t show up? Sometimes sellers use points while waiting to close.

 

[RoseGold]

Isn’t that what they are offering you in point rental form? I am confused.

 

[shawnbrig]

No what they want is for me to rent the 174 - 2019 (they thought were 2020 points) and the company keep the money, and I guess once I book the renter they will give me 174 - 2020 points but if they give me 2020 points they will still expire July 31, 2020 because the banking window is long gone. I would need 2021 points.

I am sure the CEO chooses his words carefully. He will furnish. I need points transferred into my 2021 use year so I can use them when and however I want. Quote from the CEO of the company below.

"We will be happy to furnish you with 174 points from 2020 which is what your contract promised."

I think my best bet is to consult with a lawyer because clearly I feel like something is wrong here.

Isn’t that what they are offering you in point rental form? I am confused.

 

[winterwhite]

I’m confused as to how you think that you are not being made whole if they are offering to rent the wrong points from you?

essentially you are asking to be made whole based on an assumption about a future transaction you relied on - that you would rent all points for $20 per point to someone else to pay down your mortgage - that has nothing to do with the actual transaction that took place.

 

[shawnbrig]

Hey Winterwhite,

Its confusing, the sales agent didn't get it till he looked at screen shots he had of the sellers dashboard. They are not offering to rent the wrong points from me. They wanted me to rent the 174 points wrong points for them to one of their renters, I would only book it, I would get no money. Not my points, I have my own expiring points.

What I should have is 156 points expiring July 31, 2021 what I actually have is 330 points expiring July 31, 2021
What I should have is 660 points coming August 2021, what I actually have is 486 points coming August 2021

174 points that do not belong to me:
I don't care about the 174 wrong points expiring in less than 2 months. I have 156 of those already. So they will find a renter, I would have to book the reservation, they would use my membership, free of charge. The rental company would collect 100% from the renter. I guess I would need a clause the rental company would be responsible for any damage.

174 point that do belong to me that should be in the upcoming August 2021 use year:
It is now June if they transfer 174 - 2020 points to me they would expire on July 31, 2021. What I would need is a transfer is 174 - 2021 points so they would end up where the 2020 bank points were supposed to be.

I hope that made it more clear, but I doubt it. Forget the $20 value I attached to the points. Just give me the 174 points that should be in my 2021 use year like the disclosure says. Then I can do whatever I want with them.

Remember these are RR resale points. There are no studios, no Grand Villas between today and July 31, 2021 when the points expire. What is actually left to book at RR before the points expire - Eight nights in a 1-bedroom preferred view, and 6 nights in a two bedroom. The 10th to the 11th are the only consecutive in both categories the rest are scattered. Its very limited when all points can be used at RR and all resale RR point have to be use there 100% of the time. Resale RR is only for people who plan 7-11 months out.

I’m confused as to how you think that you are not being made whole if they are offering to rent the wrong points from you?

essentially you are asking to be made whole based on an assumption about a future transaction you relied on - that you would rent all points for $20 per point to someone else to pay down your mortgage - that has nothing to do with the actual transaction that took place.

 

[macman123]

Yes,I have 14 contracts and they have always said what points are. Its not on the closing doc but the initial contract.

"10. SPECIAL CLAUSES (BANKED POINTS, CURRENT POINTS, ETC.) 150 BANKED POINTS FROM AUGUST 2019 AND 150 POINTS FROM AUGUST 2020 AND 150 POINTS COMING AUGUST 2021 AND FORWARD."

 

[shawnbrig]

Hey Macman123,

The only mention of the points was on a document from the title company where it says the the information was provided from seller and they are not responsible. It does say 330 banked points from 2020. So my 2021 use year should have 660 points however it has 486.

Were all resale?
Have you ever had this issue?
If yes, how was it resolved?

Yes,I have 14 contracts and they have always said what points are. Its not on the closing doc but the initial contract.

"10. SPECIAL CLAUSES (BANKED POINTS, CURRENT POINTS, ETC.) 150 BANKED POINTS FROM AUGUST 2019 AND 150 POINTS FROM AUGUST 2020 AND 150 POINTS COMING AUGUST 2021 AND FORWARD."

 

[shawnbrig]

Hey RoseGold,

It kept going over the contract, and some of the other documents but I found it on a 1 page disclosure form from the title company, which basically says we are saying the title is good, and the seller says you have X points in X use year and we are not responsible for what the seller say. I do feel better now that I found it in writing on my end, but I was on the phone with the agent who discover there was some banking and borrowing of points. Not sure if it was before or after the contract was listed. I put this stuff out of my head for 5 day, and now its 6 am and I have not slept all night. I blame it on the shrimp, chicken, and smoked mac and cheese from Saltgrass.

Shouldn’t your contract should show exactly what it would contain and a dollar amount if the points don’t show up? Sometimes sellers use points while waiting to close.

 

[kandlsutton]

Does anyone who has purchase resale have the point allocations listed on their closing documents. Really interested to here from people with stripped contracts. Would they notate no points coming till August 2022? Contract heavy loaded like mine, did they list the allocation of your banked points from two different years?

Thanks,

Shawn

My closing documents included an Occupancy and Use affidavit. It stated that there were 75 points for 2020 and beyond. That was incorrect since I had rewuested that the 2020 points be banked and I received a screen shot from the sellers account confirming the points were banked. I questioned the broker and title agent before I sent the closing documents and payment and the affidavit was changed to 150 2021 points (75 banked from 2020j and 75 points for 2022 and beyond. So yes, closing documents did specify how many points for each use year.

 

[princesscinderella]

The point allocation is usually detailed on the initial purchase agreement that is sent to Disney to decide if they are going to ROFR it. It also typically has language that says if there’s a problem with the points it will be be $15-$20 per point to make whole what was promised. It has nothing to do what’s on the closing documents or deeds. If that’s not spelled out in your initial purchase agreement you don’t have a leg to stand on in the fight unfortunately.

 

[shawnbrig]

Hey Kandlsutton,

You are correct, I was only combing over the documents that came from the mortgage company and the resale company, mine was titled the Occupancy and Use Disclosure it came from the title company.

"Under a bound contract or other agreement, the Seller has represented the property referenced above to be 330 points with every use year. Seller also makes formal assurances that the buyers' to receive 156 banked points from August 2019 that will expire July 31, 2021 and 330 banked points from August 2020 and 330 points coming August 2021 and 330 points coming august 2022 and forward.

Buyer understands that ____ title company only guarantees title only."

My closing documents included an Occupancy and Use affidavit. It stated that there were 75 points for 2020 and beyond. That was incorrect since I had requested that the 2020 points be banked and I received a screen shot from the sellers account confirming the points were banked. I questioned the broker and title agent before I sent the closing documents and payment and the affidavit was changed to 150 2021 points (75 banked from 2020j and 75 points for 2022 and beyond. So yes, closing documents did specify how many points for each use year.

 

[shawnbrig]

Ohhh Princesscinderella,

I have great conversations about the ROFR process with member service and member administration. Now what I also gathered was DVC doesn't look at the contracts that come to ROFR to see what year the contract say their point are allocated to. This is not their transaction and they have a record of what is supposed to be where, and that record was what was used to allocate my points.

"Under a bound contract or other agreement, the Seller has represented the property referenced above to be 330 points with every use year. Seller also makes formal assurances that the buyers' to receive 156 banked points from August 2019 that will expire July 31, 2021 and 330 banked points from August 2020 and 330 points coming August 2021 and 330 points coming august 2022 and forward.

Buyer understands that ____ title company only guarantees title only."

Thank,

Shawn

The point allocation is usually detailed on the initial purchase agreement that is sent to Disney to decide if they are going to ROFR it. It also typically has language that says if there’s a problem with the points it will be be $15-$20 per point to make whole what was promised. It has nothing to do what’s on the closing documents or deeds. If that’s not spelled out in your initial purchase agreement you don’t have a leg to stand on in the fight unfortunately.

 

[shawnbrig]

Macman123,

I had to come back and comment on the number of contract since you put it out there. YOU HAVE FOURTEEN CONTRACTS! I only say the number of contracts I have if I am in person, or on the phone with someone I can feel is excited about Disney vacations. I am in a room by myself and I said how many I have and smile and think that's ridiculous. DVC has brought joy to family, friends, and coworkers. I know there is a thread for number of points, is there one for number of contracts?

thanks,

Shawn

Yes,I have 14 contracts and they have always said what points are. Its not on the closing doc but the initial contract.

"10. SPECIAL CLAUSES (BANKED POINTS, CURRENT POINTS, ETC.) 150 BANKED POINTS FROM AUGUST 2019 AND 150 POINTS FROM AUGUST 2020 AND 150 POINTS COMING AUGUST 2021 AND FORWARD."