Abortion thread

[totalia]

Actually, I have to leave to go home anyway. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not going off in a huff nor do I feel forced out. I just don't feel like I am being constructive and I am causing more trouble and distraction than the points I am making are worth. I don;t want to risk what has been a very civil threads so far uncivil by tryiong push my views on it.

I have to run, good night all!

Oh no. Your not causing trouble or anything. This is a very interesting thread. Please do come back.

 

[totalia]

you guys don't have to dance around, but i appreciate it. you can't offend me by askiing questions. I'm usually flamed by being too honest in my responses. just because we were under their care doesn't subject me to their beliefs, IMO. we had nuns calling our house for weeks afterward asking my wife if she needed help with the grieving process. my wife and I don't believe in organized religion. we were close to that hospital when the contractions began.

I'd never flame you. I appreciate your honesty. I'd rather have the honesty, even if it hurts.

 

[totalia]

Just to add another question to the debate, not sure if it has been discussed in length yet (on this thread):

If the medical field could come up with a contraption to 'incubate' fetuses (or a way to transplant them) until they could be 'viable' and 'born', would you support a law that mandated incubating or transplanting fetuses, instead of aborting it? Why and why not?

I ask this because the prevailing theme is that viability and a woman being forced to host a fetus as reasons that legal abortion is necessary...

This wouldn't be the same as mandatory organ donation because people do not willingly choose to get rid of organs and dispose of them, sans disease.

Yes I would provided that there is also acompanying legislation that would allow me to decide if I want the child to know that I exist or not and NO way for the child to decide if they want to know me later.

Obviously, if a method of doing as you suggested were discovered then the fetus would be viable. As I have already stated, if it is a viable fetus, then it has rights.

 

[auntpolly]

The thing about the Catholic Hospital - I have a Jewish friend who will never forgive the nuns at the Catholic hospital she had her miscarriage in because they tried to comfort her by telling her that her baby was in heaven. I really don't want to upset my friend, so I just nod understandingly. But what I'd really like to say is, "I'm sorry, but that's what nuns do. That's what they believe. If you are in a Catholic hospital, you are likely to run into some people with a great deal of faith. They can't help it."

They don't run around the streets trying to push their beliefs on you -- but if you are in their hospital, or their school or their church, they are going to do and say what they think God wants them to say.

I'm sorry you were offended - it was a stressful time. But these kinds of things are offered in love - even if it's not what you are asking for.

 

[totalia]

They may be offered in love but when a person is not receptive to it, then the senders of it need to BACK OFF.

 

[chobie]

Wow, this thread moves REALLY fast! Anyway, I have already given my views on abortion, but I do have a curiosity question. Nothing to cause an arguement I don't think, but just something I am very curious about.

Earlier in this thread several of you said that you don't believe it is a baby until after it is born. I know several of you have children though. So, my question is to those of you who feel that way and have children...if you don't believe it is an actual baby until after birth, how could you feel any excitement during pregnancy? When your baby kicked, what did you feel? Did you think oh, the fetus is moving? Or did you actually have a bond during pregnancy? I am just curious how pregnancy could have meant anything to you (even during the 3rd trimester) if the thing growing inside of you wasn't yet a baby in your mind. And I think that this question if best left answered by the women on this thread...no offense to our male DISers!

I have had two pregnancies. Both were planned. Both had prenatal tests that indicated healthy fetuses. I remained healthy throughout both of them. Before I became pregnant I was in love in with idea of a baby. While I was pregnant I was in love with the idea of what my babies would be like.

My point is, I wanted to have babies and everything was fine so I allowed myself to imagine the possibilities. Honestly when you were a few weeks along, though excited, did you picture holding an embryo and dressing it in pretty clothes?

I have no idea what or how I would a thought if my pregnancies were not planned or if something went wrong. So ,when I hear the stories of other women who choose abortions for whatever reasons, I think "there but for the Grace of God go I.."

 

[twojo21]

i'm pro choice, i think its a womens choice to abort, adopt, have a full term pregnancy and family. that why its choice, as each individual see's fit. the country is divided on abortion because of politics & religion, i just hope abortion, adoption & birth are always available options to all & that the procedures are improved. i agree its to commonly used for birth control, i also think birth control needs to be available to all & that woman need to take more respect in themselves. but that's just my opinion.

definition of choice
1. the act of choosing; selection
2. the power, right or liberty to choose; option
3. a number of variety from which to choose
4. an alternative

as for the disabled, each is an individual and has different levels of disability. my brother has autism and yet lives a happy, healthy life he goes to school, works pt, has friends, a family who loves him & he is the most sincere kind person i know, he is an angel. but i know what you mean when there's someone who is living artificially. but remember don't discriminate, educate, dont blanket the disabled. but thats yoir view, choice totalia. its weird for me as i'm on both sides of the fence as prochoice, christian & passionate person. my first view of your post wounded me harshly, but i'm sure someone else feels that way about my post & views too. the second time around i understood i think your heartfelt point & my own.

don't discriminate, educate.
twojo21

 

[auntpolly]

They may be offered in love but when a person is not receptive to it, then the senders of it need to BACK OFF.

Yeah, I know, and if it's a stressful time, it's hard to even listen to someone you don't want to hear. But I just think people get a little too spooked by Catholics, LOL sometimes.

I used to live in the south and I was in the hospital completely dominated by Southern Baptists and they even knew I was Catholic, but still comforted, advised, and encouraged me in their way with their words and in their style of faith -- and a lot of it seemed very strange, but I didn't pick a fight with them. (I remember saying, "I'm Catholic", and them saying, "Yes, honey, I know" with a look that said, "You poor thing!") I just took it all in the spirit it was intended. They meant it to be helpful and they were offering me a gift of their faith. Hey, I'll take anyone's offering of love through faith - no matter what religion, as long as they aren't hounding me to convert.

I don't know what happened in Immelman's hospital, and if they got belligerant with him and tried to push him around, I agree that would be wrong and what can I say -- there are rude people from all faiths.But if it was just some very faithful people - on their own territory - explaining what they do there and what they believe, I just wish everyone would calm down about it. One of the things I love about Catholics is that they aren't big proselytizors.

Immelman I'm sorry the whole thing happened to you - I'm sure it was pretty upsetting.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

you're missing my big picture. it was nothing more than another failed attempt at pregnancy. dead tissue at that point. we'd been through it before. naming it makes it too personal. no matter how we expressed our opinions, they kept bolstering theirs. once you call my house and I tell you not to call us again, I expect you to respect that. my inferrence about going to jail was we had a nurse tell us we needed to give the 'baby' a name so it could be recognized by god.

Well then I agree that at some point--they need to back off. Nothing wrong with offering something that they would be doing anyway. They do it with all of their maternity patients I am sure. However, when you tell them to cease and desist, they should respect your wishes. I am sure your wife's paperwork would have indicated her religious affiliation or lack thereof.

However--I never heard the baby name thing--but if it were true, perhaps they just wanted you to make you aware of it. As upset as you and your wife were...it seems the bedside manner was lacking in how they chose to communicate that.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Sorry. I had to sleep because I couldn't see or type anymore. This cold is kicking my butt. Otherwise I'd have continued to post.

And I have to agree. I hope the day never comes that a woman can be prosecuted for a miscarry.

(ooops meant to say this instead) I wasn't speaking about you totalia

Your posts have been wonderful!

 

[totalia]

Yeah, I know, and if it's a stressful time, it's hard to even listen to someone you don't want to hear. But I just think people get a little too spooked by Catholics, LOL sometimes.

Lol. I don't. My whole family is Catholic except for me and my sister.

They don't scare me but they can be VERY pushy.

 

[totalia]

(ooops meant to say this instead) I wasn't speaking about you totalia

Your posts have been wonderful!

Thank you. I'm surprised this thread only has a few more posts from the ones I made last night.

 

[goofy4tink]

Yikes...this thread has taken on a life of it's own. Have to agree that I was reading all those posts, waiting for the nastiness to come out. Incredible folks. Well done.

PAW...I had the same thought that you offered. What would happen if down the road it were possible to have your fetus (or whatever you choose to call it) taken from you and transplanted in a woman who dearly wanted a child. I would be on that wagon so fast your head would spin. I can almost see a time when women will start pregnancies and them have them transplanted to 'pregnancy units' almost like farms so that those fetuses who would have been aborted, could now be offered a family at the point of birth. A nice alternative to abortion as we know it.

But, until that time, I will agree with whoever much earlier posted their idea of a timetable. I think that after that first trimester (12 weeks) it shouldn't be an option, without mitigating circumstances as approved by a physician.

Again...incredible job. Just goes to show that we can debate (dare I use that word) without being nasty.

 

[MrsKreamer]

Yikes...this thread has taken on a life of it's own. Have to agree that I was reading all those posts, waiting for the nastiness to come out. Incredible folks. Well done.

PAW...I had the same thought that you offered. What would happen if down the road it were possible to have your fetus (or whatever you choose to call it) taken from you and transplanted in a woman who dearly wanted a child. I would be on that wagon so fast your head would spin. I can almost see a time when women will start pregnancies and them have them transplanted to 'pregnancy units' almost like farms so that those fetuses who would have been aborted, could now be offered a family at the point of birth. A nice alternative to abortion as we know it.

But, until that time, I will agree with whoever much earlier posted their idea of a timetable. I think that after that first trimester (12 weeks) it shouldn't be an option, without mitigating circumstances as approved by a physician.

Again...incredible job. Just goes to show that we can debate (dare I use that word) without being nasty.

I think they would have to find a "market" for those children. I know some people who wait for years to adopt. This could be a win-win situation.
I also think that maybe one day in the near future we won't need as many abortions because women become more knowledgable about their bodies. Just think 50 years ago some women thought they could get pregnant by kissing.

Oh I wanted to add the female contraception is available to everyone. I get my BCP for free through my local health unit. You can get them for free or a discounted price depending on your income. BCP, the implant thing, and the shots are available. They also have a doctor or nurse practishioner (sp) give you a physical exam. They also do free std testing and pregnancy testing.

 

[sha_lyn]

I also think that maybe one day in the near future we won't need as many abortions because women become more knowledgable about their bodies. Just think 50 years ago some women thought they could get pregnant by kissing.

I've know women who became PG because they only thought they took the pill on days they had "relations". One person I know actually got PG 2x's because she was only taking the pill when she had sex with her husband. Her oldest is a yr younger than I am so this was in late 1968/early69 and her second child is about 18 months younger. She didn't even know until yrs later that she was suppose to take the pill daily. Her husband had a vacectomy while she was PG the second time or they would have like had many children.

I also know someone who once working in a health clinic or similar setting. she said it was amazing what some girls where doing as "birth control". The ones I remember are not allowing the guy to touch their breast, douching with coca cola and being on top.
I truly think education is very important, but I'm not sure if I like the direction of some of the programs offered in the schools.

 

[Tasha+Scott]

My point is, I wanted to have babies and everything was fine so I allowed myself to imagine the possibilities. Honestly when you were a few weeks along, though excited, did you picture holding an embryo and dressing it in pretty clothes?

Honestly, no, but I never pictured it as an embryo. I did imagine during the first few weeks what it would look like when I delivered and dressing it in pretty clothes then. I think I have always thought of it as what it will be like when it is full-term. I know that there is a drastic difference between what it would look like like in the first few weeks and in the end, but I have always trusted that things will turn out fine and that I will be holding a healthy baby before I know it. I will admit that I think it would have been easier to miscarry a baby during the first few weeks than to lose it after I had felt it kick, etc. Although it has always been a baby in my mind, it does seem much more real now that it kicks me in my ribs every few minutes! And I think the fact that I am sure I have internal bruising would prove that...lol!

 

[MrsKreamer]

I've know women who became PG because they only thought they took the pill on days they had "relations". One person I know actually got PG 2x's because she wassssss only taking the pill when she and sex with her husband. Her oldest is a yr younger than I am so this was in late 1968/early69 and her second child is about 18 months younger. She didn't even know until yrs later that she was suppose to take the pill daily. Her husband had a vacectomy while she was PG the second time or they would have like had many children.

I also know someone who once working in a health clinic or similar setting. she said it was amazing what some girls where doing as "birth control". The ones I remember are not allowing the guy to touch their breast, douching with coca cola and being on top.
I truly think education is very important, but I'm not sure if I like the direction of some of the programs offered in the schools.

 

[swilphil]

I've know women who became PG because they only thought they took the pill on days they had "relations". One person I know actually got PG 2x's because she wassssss only taking the pill when she and sex with her husband. Her oldest is a yr younger than I am so this was in late 1968/early69 and her second child is about 18 months younger. She didn't even know until yrs later that she was suppose to take the pill daily. Her husband had a vacectomy while she was PG the second time or they would have like had many children.

I also know someone who once working in a health clinic or similar setting. she said it was amazing what some girls where doing as "birth control". The ones I remember are not allowing the guy to touch their breast, douching with coca cola and being on top.
I truly think education is very important, but I'm not sure if I like the direction of some of the programs offered in the schools.

I think these examples are excellent reasons why birth control does need to be taught in school. As long as you have a responsible educator who isn't going to get too graphic (like turn the lecture into a Penthouse letter to the editor), I don't think offering information on birth control methods is out of place. As far as teaching abstinence ONLY and the morality, I'd rather do that as a parent.

 

[sha_lyn]

Yep, it is the graphic programs, especially the one that was teaching the kids how to ********** and telling them that is was an alternative way to have "relations" with their dates. I can't remember the details, but I know it was a program that many schools were sending their teachers to. someone eventually took a hidden camera in and taped what they were telling the educators to teach to the students. There were several laws suits, including the programs founders suing the person who taped the seminar.

 

[Tasha+Scott]

I think these examples are excellent reasons why birth control does need to be taught in school. As long as you have a responsible educator who isn't going to get too graphic (like turn the lecture into a Penthouse letter to the editor), I don't think offering information on birth control methods is out of place. As far as teaching abstinence ONLY and the morality, I'd rather do that as a parent.

I thought the same thing when I read sha_lyn's post. I wonder who taught the sex education of "don't let the guy touch your breast" or "douche with coca-cola" and you won't get pregnant. I find it sad that we, as Americans, aren't better educated.