Abortion thread

[poohandwendy]

I don't think you have paw-in-mouth, you raised so very valid points.

LOL, I read that as a funny 'play on words'..since most people here call me PAW...

carry on, interesting discussion.

 

[phillybeth]

In my opinoin, the hospital should have asked what the parents wishes were, not pushed their views on them. It all depends on how it was handled, but the hospital should have respected the parents beleifs first and formost. Asking it they wanted to have a funeral would be one thing., Telling them there would be a funeral would be quite another.

I have a vague rememberance of a catholic hospital in this area doing something similar to this. I think what they did was save all the embryonic/fetal medical waste until there was enough to cremate, then they would have a memorial mass, with families present if they wished, and inter the cremains. What I can't remember is if patients had the choice to opt out of cremating the remains.
I have to say thought that most catholic hospitals in my experience are very mindful of the fact that not all their patients are catholic and are very sensitive to such issues.

 

[Immelman]

you guys don't have to dance around, but i appreciate it. you can't offend me by askiing questions. I'm usually flamed by being too honest in my responses. just because we were under their care doesn't subject me to their beliefs, IMO. we had nuns calling our house for weeks afterward asking my wife if she needed help with the grieving process. my wife and I don't believe in organized religion. we were close to that hospital when the contractions began.

 

[poohandwendy]

you guys don't have to dance around, but i appreciate it. you can't offend me by askiing questions. I'm usually flamed by being too honest in my responses. just because we were under their care doesn't subject me to their beliefs, IMO. we had nuns calling our house for weeks afterward asking my wife if she needed help with the grieving process. my wife and I don't believe in organized religion. we were close to that hospital when the contractions began.
__________________

Well hell, I will ask questions, I also tend to be too honest in my responses.

I guess I just don't get it. What is so wrong with someone asking if you need help with the grieving process? (just a note, many if not most parents are deeply disappointed by a miscarriage) And if you really view it as a glob of tissues, why would you care what they did with it? I could see if they required you to attend a funeral or required you to accept help with grieving. I just don't understand your taking offense if you really just do not view it as a baby? I mean, you went to a hospital with a religious affiliation. Why on earth would you expect them to have a non-religious approach to patient care?

I guess I just don't understand your outrage (ie, you almost went to jail that day)?

 

[Immelman]

you're missing my big picture. it was nothing more than another failed attempt at pregnancy. dead tissue at that point. we'd been through it before. naming it makes it too personal. no matter how we expressed our opinions, they kept bolstering theirs. once you call my house and I tell you not to call us again, I expect you to respect that. my inferrence about going to jail was we had a nurse tell us we needed to give the 'baby' a name so it could be recognized by god.

 

[poohandwendy]

you're missing my big picture. it was nothing more than another failed attempt at pregnancy. dead tissue at that point. we'd been through it before. naming it makes it too personal. no matter how we expressed our opinions, they kept bolstering theirs. once you call my house and I tell you not to call us again, I expect you to respect that. my inferrence about going to jail was we had a nurse tell us we needed to give the 'baby' a name so it could be recognized by god.

While I do not agree with their aggressiveness, you did go to a Catholic hospital. It sort of goes with the territory, right or wrong. I went through a similar situation when I was sick in Catholic hospital at the age of 17. They sent a nun in to talk to me, if I needed to. I am not Catholic, but I was able to just shrug it off as their way of reaching out to me. SOP.

I guess I just don't understand your saying it is nothing, yet you didn't want it to be too personal. To me, it would be very personal, losing a pregnancy. No matter how far along it was. But my appendix wouldn't be. I wouldn't WANT to lose my appendix, but I wouldn't have a personal attachment to it. So, if someone at the hospital suggested that my appendix needed named and buried or whatever, I would appease them because it would be meaningless to me, what is the difference? And then probably joke about it with my friends.

My point is, hopefully I am making some sense here......if you see it as pretty much the same thing as an appendix...then wouldn't it be just sort of silly to get up in arms over it?

I am just trying to understand your POV. I only ask because you put it out there and seem to have a pretty thick skin, I am in no way trying to offend you...not even sure you can be offended very easily, LOL

 

[totalia]

Why would something have less rights simply because it is attached to you? Also, what about a baby that could syurvie outside the womb in intesive care?

Human life is human life. Our law says its wrong to murder huiman life. The only real question is when that life begin and by what stadards we use to determine than that. Physical attachment seems irrelevant in making that decision.

I am not arguing one side or the other, I'm just saying we don;t know enough about the problem yet to solve it.

Do you seriously think that a tape worm has a right to life just because its attached to you? It leaches nutrients from your body like any parasite.

 

[totalia]

It's not just about physical attachment. Its about viability. If the fetus can be removed and survive by any means outside of the uterus it is viable an is a life and society can decide who will then care for the child. As long as its survival is based solely on the host's uterus then only one with the uterus being so used should be able to decide what happens. That's my argument.

Exactly.

 

[totalia]

With all do respect (and I mean that sincerely) I don't believe a man can understand how horrifying it is for a pro-choice woman to be told by anyone, but especially a man, what they can do with their bodies. Much of the passion of we pro-choice women comes from this.

*nods* No man has any right to tell me what I have to or cannot do with my own body. Period. No man owns me.

 

[totalia]

Again, you are ciompletely disregarding the concept that the baby may deserve rights. Laws can always be improved.

You have already said that you don't know if it deserves rights yourself. What is your argument then?

We have all been talking about WHEN it attains human rights. When it is still attached to the mother it is nothing more than a parasite. It uses her body for nutrients and protection just like any other parasite would. Are you seriously implying that we should not be able to kill any parasite at all because it is alive?

It attains human rights when it does not have to be attached to a host body and can survive. This is what we are talking about. What are you talking about?

 

[totalia]

They have performed a surgery on baby in utero before. It was not old enough to live outside the womb. But the surgery saved it's life. It would take me a while to google it--I don't recall what the surgery was for...but the pic was shown with the baby grasping the surgeon's finger.

OKay--not as hard to search as I thougt---the surgery is called: maternal-fetal surgery for spina bifida and was a corrective procedure performed on mom and baby Samuel Armas at 21 weeks in utero--a little older than 3 months--maybe 4-5 months. Pic was submitted to USA Today via unprocessed film to ensure no digital manipulation. The 2003 update on him says that he walks with braces and did not have to endure the surgeries that are common for children with Spina Bifida and he is cognitively normal.

BUT the mother has decided that she wants the baby to be saved. SHE has decided it. NOT the doctor's. NOT the baby itself. NOT the father. The MOTHER decided to do the surgery.

And just because it has instinctive responses that even a kitten would have to flex its paw does not intelligence make.

 

[totalia]

Guess again.
In Japan, an artificial womb has been created that incubates goat fetuses. The scientists who developed it say they are working on a model that can be used for human fetuses.

Several weeks ago,a team of scientists from Cornell University's Weill Medical College announced that they had succeeded, for the first time, in creating an artificial womb lining. The scientific team,led by Dr Hung Chiung Liu of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility, stimulated cells to grow into uterine lining, using a cocktail of drugs and hormones. The goal of the research is to help infertile couples by creating an entire womb which could be transplanted into a woman.

10 years might be a bit optomistic, but not much.

You cannot really be comparing a GOAT to a human.

Creating a lining is NOT the same as creating a viable working womb.

You know what? If I get pregnant and I don't want the baby and they have a working womb, then they can have it. Thats fine by me provided they allow an agreement that the child will never know who I am. But there is no reason that I should be forced to have the baby.

 

[totalia]

Good point. I would never be for mandiory organ donation, but then again I would have to give up an organ. Now, if someone madated you give blood to save a life, how would you feel. The case we are discussing is somewhere in between, more intrusive than giving blood, less intrusive than surrendering an organ forever (at least i most cases).

As for the danger, I would say the pregnacy could be terminated if the life of the mother was ever in danger, as then you are faced with the unhapppy choice of choice of being forced to pick one life over another.

I don't donate blood so there's the answer to your question for me. My terror of the needle far outweighs any benefits in my mind. Unreasonable and foolish as that is.

 

[totalia]

Those who were very absolute have pretty much posted once and left---the majority of us firmly in our beliefs have been having very educated discussions and putting in facts and scenarios to discuss it.

We have discussed the perhaps the law needs to be further defined--and even some of the pro-choicers agreed....

split along the lines of 1st/2nd/3rd trimester....you'll have to look around to find it as it is dinnertime for us.

As far as 1st trimester--technology may one day become available--but it costs money---and I would hate to see it come to the day that a woman is miscarrying and she is held liable for it.

Sorry. I had to sleep because I couldn't see or type anymore. This cold is kicking my butt. Otherwise I'd have continued to post.

And I have to agree. I hope the day never comes that a woman can be prosecuted for a miscarry.

 

[poohandwendy]

Just to add another question to the debate, not sure if it has been discussed in length yet (on this thread):

If the medical field could come up with a contraption to 'incubate' fetuses (or a way to transplant them) until they could be 'viable' and 'born', would you support a law that mandated incubating or transplanting fetuses, instead of aborting it? Why and why not?

I ask this because the prevailing theme is that viability and a woman being forced to host a fetus as reasons that legal abortion is necessary...

This wouldn't be the same as mandatory organ donation because people do not willingly choose to get rid of organs and dispose of them, sans disease.

 

[totalia]

I have to say that this post is extremely interesting! What a great conversation! Good job everyone!

Thank you. I'm very surprised that it's remained civil for as long as it has. I don't mind discussing things like this so long as no one starts insulting anyone or talking down to them.

I hope it stays this was.

 

[totalia]

Why did you almost go to jail?

If they simply asked--and you didn't want a funeral...you say no thank you.

We can get a life insurance policy that covers unborn babies that are miscarried after a certain # of weeks...but at the moment I forget--but it seemed pretty early.

My family is Catholic, though I'm not. Sometimes its not an easy thing to just say no to the religious leaders of a church. Sometimes they get rudely pushy and instant even to the point of saying really horrible things just to get you to agree with them.

 

[totalia]

That is not an artificial womb. It is mimicing the physical conditions found inside the womb. There is a big difference.

Exactly.

 

[totalia]

Yesm at least a bit. From the language of some of the responses to me, I do believe that some here are more infelxable than they realize, but I don't clamin to be any better.

Sorry about missing the preemie question. I honsetly didn't intend to. Quailty of life is a HUGE issue and another that we will have to strive to understand. An extermely disable person can have a very fulllling life, but clearly there is a point where a line will need to be drawn. Where that line will be be a very difficult topic that society must come to terms with. I don;t have an opinion, but I acknoledge that I should. I will think on it.

I really hate saying this because its rather rude but I have seen "disabled" that really should have been aborted.

Just because you can help someone survive doesn't neccesarily mean you should.

I used to work in the public library of my city. Every Friday, one of the care homes would bring the "disabled" to the library for a while.

They would be SEVERELY disturbing to everyone. Screaming and throwing things. They didn't know their own strength and I actually saw one patron get hurt by one of them when they hit her really hard.

Some couldn't talk but seemed to think screaming at the top of their lungs was a good way to communicate.

But everyone just shrugged and let them get away with it because they were "disabled". Just because your disabled doesn't mean that it should be ok for you to hurt others.

Seriously... if I ever end up like any of those people please please do me the courtesy of killing me.

There are worse things than death. THAT is one of them.

 

[totalia]

I am inflexible on the belief that until a fetus can be viable outside the uterus it is implanted in, the choice should be the woman's choice alone. As of now a first trimester fetus/embryo is not viable and when or if it does become a possibility then I may rethink my stance. I respect that people can see this as not being an issue with absolutes and I can respect people who will say they do not believe in abortion in any circumstances based on their religious beliefs.

I think that this thread is proving that people can have absolute beliefs in completely opposite directions as still discuss it in a civil manner. People can also bring their emotions into a debate, emotions are an integral part of the human experience, and still remain civil. Emotions can and do belong in every issue of importance to people.

*nods* I agree.