Abortion thread

[auntpolly]

no, it's a nonfactor to me. my wife and I endured a series of late first term miscarriages before my daughter decided to stick it out and go full term. I would be in an institution if I thought that stuff through. the worst was my wife had one in a catholic hospital. they wanted to know if we wanted a funeral. I almost went to jail that day.

I remember the day she had her abortion vividly, but I don't think about it. I guess I'm a cold person, but I have no feelings about it. we did what we did, and we both went on with our different lives about a year after that. I've never spoken to her since.

Thanks for answering -- and sorry it was really none of my business. I'm really glad you're OK. I really was just curious.

 

[phillybeth]

You think thats scary, try this
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/health/092302_hs_artificialwomb.html

An artifical womb for a 4 baby who was 4 months premature, and we are doing it NOW.

I stand by my statement that tech is changing the nature of the discussion.

That is not an artificial womb. It is mimicing the physical conditions found inside the womb. There is a big difference.

 

[auntpolly]

I don;t think you are joking. In fact, you are repeating my point (LOL). The criteria that I was just discussing with someone was viability, but I think we will discover more. Right now the best we can do is admit we dont know, thus the current law protets the onluy thing we understand, the rights of the woman. Still, that doesn;t mean we shouldn;t keep trying to find a better understanding.

Science marches on, of course. I'm not trying to stop the advances of medicine to keep abortion legal. But this is where we are now -- when and if we know more or something different, we'll adjust the discussion.

 

[WDWHound]

OK dinner ready, candles lit, pearls on, guests late......

I don't think anyone here as spoken in absolutes, except for a few who posted a few sentences and never came back. Nobody has said it is only a religious issue. Nobody has said it's just a woman's issue.No one has said it is only a legal issues. We've talked about all of these things in concert with a very complicated subject. The only thing I will absolutely say is that I we are confident about our positions -- or we wouldn't have debated them so long. You say what you think - we say what we think. Point - counterpoint. I think it's a little condescending to interpret that as "not being capable of considering other peoples' points." I don't agree with you - you haven't said anything that inspires me to modify my point of view.

You aren't trying to say that we are inflexible and you aren't are you? After all, you've never really answered my question about the ethics of saving very premature babies who will have a very poor quality of life.

Yesm at least a bit. From the language of some of the responses to me, I do believe that some here are more infelxable than they realize, but I don't clamin to be any better.

Sorry about missing the preemie question. I honsetly didn't intend to. Quailty of life is a HUGE issue and another that we will have to strive to understand. An extermely disable person can have a very fulllling life, but clearly there is a point where a line will need to be drawn. Where that line will be be a very difficult topic that society must come to terms with. I don;t have an opinion, but I acknoledge that I should. I will think on it.

 

[WDWHound]

Science marches on, of course. I'm not trying to stop the advances of medicine to keep abortion legal. But this is where we are now -- when and if we know more or something different, we'll adjust the discussion.

Ummmm, the tread is on abortion issues. I saw no restriction to just present day abortion issues.

In any case it is clear my presence on this thread is not constructive. Sorry to be such a pain. Have a nioce discussion. See y'all on other threads.

 

[auntpolly]

Yesm at least a bit. .

At least you're honest! I'll give you that!

 

[phillybeth]

Hound, I like debating stuff with you. You're fun. What ever happened to the spirituality thread? I went on vacation and never saw it again.

 

[auntpolly]

Ummmm, the tread is on abortion issues. I saw no restriction to just present day abortion issues.

In any case it is clear my presence on this thread is not constructive. Sorry to be such a pain. Have a nioce discussion. See y'all on other threads.

Ah c'mon. Don't leave! We're just talking is all! Just say what you think!

Except that I have to right now because there are headlights in the driveway!

 

[WDWHound]

Hound, I like debating stuff with you. You're fun. What ever happened to the spirituality thread? I went on vacation and never saw it again.

It ran its course and died a natural death. I enjoyed it too and hope to start another similar one after people have had a bit of a break.

Thanks for the kind words, I enjoy debating with you too (and that goes for everyone on this thread, despite my paw in mouth desease that I seem to have had here).

 

[chobie]

I am inflexible on the belief that until a fetus can be viable outside the uterus it is implanted in, the choice should be the woman's choice alone. As of now a first trimester fetus/embryo is not viable and when or if it does become a possibility then I may rethink my stance. I respect that people can see this as not being an issue with absolutes and I can respect people who will say they do not believe in abortion in any circumstances based on their religious beliefs.

I think that this thread is proving that people can have absolute beliefs in completely opposite directions as still discuss it in a civil manner. People can also bring their emotions into a debate, emotions are an integral part of the human experience, and still remain civil. Emotions can and do belong in every issue of importance to people.

 

[phillybeth]

I don't think you have paw-in-mouth, you raised so very valid points. Especially that many people (not necessarily on this thread) make abortion a religious issue when really it isn't. A moral issue maybe, but not a religious one.

 

[Immelman]

What aboiut the question upset you? Was it presented as a "we beleive the fetus is a life so you should too" sort of thing?

it was presented as we're going to have a funeral, do you want to take part? it's the hospital's policy.

so why not have a funeral for someone's appendix when it's taken out? it was living tissue inside your body. they wanted us to name it.

I found the whole situation disturbing.

 

[DemonLlama]

Just checking back in -- every time I do, this thread has grown by leaps and bounds.

I keep expecting to get to the pages where posters have reverted to name calling and rolling eye emoticons and it hasn't happened!

I suppose I am one of those being referred to as "them" (versus the "we" in many posts) and "anti-choice" and religious arguer, but that pales in comparison to what I expected to happen.

Thanks!

 

[WDWHound]

Ah c'mon. Don't leave! We're just talking is all! Just say what you think!

Except that I have to right now because there are headlights in the driveway!

Actually, I have to leave to go home anyway. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not going off in a huff nor do I feel forced out. I just don't feel like I am being constructive and I am causing more trouble and distraction than the points I am making are worth. I don;t want to risk what has been a very civil threads so far uncivil by tryiong push my views on it.

I have to run, good night all!

 

[WDWHound]

it was presented as we're going to have a funeral, do you want to take part? it's the hospital's policy.

so why not have a funeral for someone's appendix when it's taken out? it was living tissue inside your body. they wanted us to name it.

I found the whole situation disturbing.

Thanks. I can understand completely. I am sorry a Christian ever did such a thing to you.

 

[phillybeth]

Thanks. I can understand completely. I am sorry a Christian ever did such a thing to you.

I'm sorry a Catholic hospital did that to you. I know when my SIL had a very late term miscarriage/stillbirth (30 weeks) they were required by law to dispose of the baby as human remains, either burial or cremation. I *think* the state law in PA is any intact fetus/baby over 1 pound in weight must be buried or cremated. Up to that point it is considered medical waste (much like that appendix).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

it was presented as we're going to have a funeral, do you want to take part? it's the hospital's policy.

so why not have a funeral for someone's appendix when it's taken out? it was living tissue inside your body. they wanted us to name it.

I found the whole situation disturbing.

Well given it is a Catholic Hospital--at least they told you what they were doing with the remains. How they dispose of any human tissue--as long as it is legal--it is at their discretion. And of course a Catholic Hospital would do something that is in line with the doctrine of the church. My friend lost her baby--she did name him--but I don't think she took the tissue--though it certainly was an option with the hospital. She did have a memorial service.

It could have simply been tone of voice of whomever was speaking to you about your loss.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Thanks. I can understand completely. I am sorry a Christian ever did such a thing to you.

Okay--I take exception...it sounds like you are saying the offering of participating in a funeral for a miscarried baby is a non-Christian thing.

Given it was a hospital run by a particular faith group--and they were doing things within their faith (legally)--how can that be non-Christian? Some families would have appreciated that and not have been offended. So it might have been how they said it as opposed to what they said.


ETA: Immelman--I hope I am not offending you as that is not my intent.

 

[MrsKreamer]

it was presented as we're going to have a funeral, do you want to take part? it's the hospital's policy.

so why not have a funeral for someone's appendix when it's taken out? it was living tissue inside your body. they wanted us to name it.

I found the whole situation disturbing.

Well I guess it depends on how far along your wife was. You said late 1st trimester. Some people already have names picked out by then. I think we did, but I can't remember. I am sorry that they offended you.

 

[WDWHound]

Okay--I take exception...it sounds like you are saying the offering of participating in a funeral for a miscarried baby is a non-Christian thing.

Given it was a hospital run by a particular faith group--and they were doing things within their faith (legally)--how can that be non-Christian? Some families would have appreciated that and not have been offended. So it might have been how they said it as opposed to what they said.


ETA: Immelman--I hope I am not offending you as that is not my intent.

In my opinoin, the hospital should have asked what the parents wishes were, not pushed theiir views on them. It all depends on how it was handled, but the hospital should have respected the parents beleifs first and formost. Asking it they wanted to have a funeral would be one thing., Telling them there would be a funeral would be quite another.