A serious question to consider

[luvsJack]

So now we are supposed to fear Obama because he may have heard controversial words at some point in his life? Good grief.

I don't think we should "fear" him, but those particular controversial words that he continued to choose to hear; we should certainly continue to question. I would not want a racist white man in the white house and I would not not want a racist black man in the white house or a racist "any other race" man in the white house. I know without a shadow of a doubt, if the preacher of my church, my spiritual adviser, my counselor and my friend, preached a sermon like Wright's-I would get up and walk out. I would not return. It certainly would not take 20 years and getting in the spot light for me to decide to not continue my association with the man.

BTW-I have not completely made up my mind about the election and do not know for sure who I will vote for. This is just one of the marks against Obama in my opinion. There are some against McCain, for me, too.

 

[stacyp9]

I don't think we should "fear" him, but those particular controversial words that he continued to choose to hear; we should certainly continue to question. I would not want a racist white man in the white house and I would not not want a racist black man in the white house or a racist "any other race" man in the white house. I know without a shadow of a doubt, if the preacher of my church, my spiritual adviser, my counselor and my friend, preached a sermon like Wright's-I would get up and walk out. I would not return. It certainly would not take 20 years and getting in the spot light for me to decide to not continue my association with the man.

BTW-I have not completely made up my mind about the election and do not know for sure who I will vote for. This is just one of the marks against Obama in my opinion. There are some against McCain, for me, too.

I think it is prudent to check into concerns.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...ing_obama.html

 

[JonS99]

I sent an email to my state Senator, who happens to be a Democrat. According to her, the Illinois State Senate was in session the week of 9/11 but the members were sent home after the attacks...

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Have you ever been to that community? I have. I don't have to read emails to know what goes on there.

Really? You've been to Trinity?

Oh. Of course you have. You've been everywhere that Obama is or has been.

Your fallacious arguments might go further without the gross exaggeration and outright lies.

 

[stacyp9]

I sent an email to my state Senator, who happens to be a Democrat. According to her, the Illinois State Senate was in session the week of 9/11 but the members were sent home after the attacks...

Hmm

http://www.ilga.gov/senate/journals/sfinaljrnls92/pdf/sfj.html

 

[rparmfamily]

I think I've seen this thread before.

Is this like Groundhog Day?

Where we live the same thread over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...well, you get the gist.

I'll take I have nothing else to argue about so I'll just drag up the same ol' things again and again for $1000 Alex.

It's because they've ran out of "fresh" ideas, they keep having to dig up the same garbage over and over.

 

[mickeysgal]

I know without a shadow of a doubt, if the preacher of my church, my spiritual adviser, my counselor and my friend, preached a sermon like Wright's-I would get up and walk out. I would not return. It certainly would not take 20 years and getting in the spot light for me to decide to not continue my association with the man.

Well, that's just smacks of.... logic, common sense, sound judgement, etc.

Imagine that.

If the everyday person can reason their way through this then I would expect a Presidential Candidate to do the same. But hey, why question it. You may not like the answer. It's just easier to excuse it.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I don't think we should "fear" him, but those particular controversial words that he continued to choose to hear; we should certainly continue to question. I would not want a racist white man in the white house and I would not not want a racist black man in the white house or a racist "any other race" man in the white house. I know without a shadow of a doubt, if the preacher of my church, my spiritual adviser, my counselor and my friend, preached a sermon like Wright's-I would get up and walk out. I would not return. It certainly would not take 20 years and getting in the spot light for me to decide to not continue my association with the man.

BTW-I have not completely made up my mind about the election and do not know for sure who I will vote for. This is just one of the marks against Obama in my opinion. There are some against McCain, for me, too.

Because he may have heard his pastor rant in this fashion, we should assume that Obama agreed with Wright on each and every issue?

The way that I was raised is that the pastor/priest is not the church, the congregation is the church. Trinity is much more than Rev. Wright.

These attacks on Obama because of his prior church affiliations remind me of the attacks JFK faced with respect to his Catholicism. Just because he attended the church doesn't mean that he agrees with everything spewed from the pulpit. More importantly, it doesn't mean that he will insert his personal religious life into his public duties. Once upon a time, we actually did keep these things separate. Those were good times.

 

[stacyp9]

Well, that's just smacks of.... logic, common sense, sound judgement, etc.

Imagine that.

If the everyday person can reason their way through this then I would expect a Presidential Candidate to do the same. But hey, why question it. You may not like the answer. It's just easier to excuse it.

It might smack of common sense if the whole premise that Wright carried on like that for twenty years was accurate. However, since it's not the whole logical, sound judgement thing pretty much falls apart.

 

[bumbershoot]

If I follow this correctly...

There's a minister that led a church. The minister is controversial. Obama says he wasn't there when the dude said nutty things. One of those dates was the Sunday after 9/11 and we are supposed to wonder why Obama wouldn't have been there. Is that right?

Let me state for the record that I am absolutely undecided, but I'm also absolutely sick of these threads. If anyone wants to say nonsense about McCain and I feel like it, I'd go roaming around the "internets" for this sort of thing about him.

Little googling.

Sasha Obama was born in June of 2001. So she was just a little mite of a thing on that day. There are all sorts of reasons people don't go out when they have 3 month old babies, especially if a place might be packed to the rafters with germ carriers, er, people.

This is fun. Looked at the Illinois state senate's schedule. They have PDFs that go back to 2002, and in that year and 2003, July, August, and September were NOT legislative days. In '02 June was an in session month, if I'm understanding these schedules, so there was some variation (that year October was empty but in '03 they had stuff on the schedule).

So it's possible that he was elsewhere, on vacation. Perhaps visiting family? Perhaps at the Grand Canyon. Or maybe (totally opposite than above) he was at Disneyland with his family.


Maybe the church was so incredibly packed, when he brought his family including the 3 months old, that there was no room, and they decided to go home. Or watch the kids in the kid's room, if there is one there.

Or go to dinner. Or go to another church.


Who knows? Maybe you could email him and ask?

Maybe you can look up travel that he did during what seems to be a break for the summer?



All candidates always are full of both good stuff and cruddy stuff. This sort of nonsense is really pushing me towards just voting for Nader and being done with it, b/c all the uber-supporters of both sides seem so bizarre about the whole thing.

 

[luvsJack]

I think it is prudent to check into concerns.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...ing_obama.html

Sorry, I do not have the time to search that site for that particular fact. (working on accounting homework between reading and posting) What fact is it saying is not true? He didn't go to the church? Wright didn't really say those things? He didn't leave when he said he did? What? Since I admit that I am not going to search that site, I am very willing to consider what you tell me it says.

I don't see what fact it is that is going to make a whole lot of difference. Wright is racist--period. If you know someone, you know if they are racist. Its not a hard thing to spot, it comes out pretty clear. I just don't understand how Obama's followers continue to excuse this one. If you don't care if he does not have a problem with the things Wright said. . . ok. Just say so. It would make more sense to me than saying "he didn't hear it" or 'he didn't know".

 

[stacyp9]

Sorry, I do not have the time to search that site for that particular fact. (working on accounting homework between reading and posting) What fact is it saying is not true? He didn't go to the church? Wright didn't really say those things? He didn't leave when he said he did? What? Since I admit that I am not going to search that site, I am very willing to consider what you tell me it says.

I don't see what fact it is that is going to make a whole lot of difference. Wright is racist--period. If you know someone, you know if they are racist. Its not a hard thing to spot, it comes out pretty clear. I just don't understand how Obama's followers continue to excuse this one. If you don't care if he does not have a problem with the things Wright said. . . ok. Just say so. It would make more sense to me than saying "he didn't hear it" or 'he didn't know".

Apologies. I thought I have given the final link. Here it is.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

Edit to add that for some reason the link is messed up. The article on that site is called sliming obama.

 

[bumbershoot]

Someone mentioned that he could have taken a train from the senate (which doesn't SEEM to have been in session in September) to his home area, where, I assume, the church is?


Well, there was a train wreck in Chicago that August. If I had a little baby and there had been a train wreck I might be a bit nervous about taking a train, especially to go somewhere after such a huge transportation hijack. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/04/news/mn-30497

Now I don't know if this train is connected to a train that would have taken him from the senate to home; all I know about the whole of Illinois is about Chicago, and that little bit is that you should choose airports carefully, and I don't personally like the pizza there.

But when you have a little one, superstitions can run higher than normal.


I'm still trying to find any info about if the trains were even running during that week. But if the legislation schedule is the way I'm reading it, he would have been having a need to take that train anyway.

 

[luvsJack]

Because he may have heard his pastor rant in this fashion, we should assume that Obama agreed with Wright on each and every issue?

The way that I was raised is that the pastor/priest is not the church, the congregation is the church. Trinity is much more than Rev. Wright.

These attacks on Obama because of his prior church affiliations remind me of the attacks JFK faced with respect to his Catholicism. Just because he attended the church doesn't mean that he agrees with everything spewed from the pulpit. More importantly, it doesn't mean that he will insert his personal religious life into his public duties. Once upon a time, we actually did keep these things separate. Those were good times.

I don't give a fig what religion our president is. Baptist, Catholic, Jewish or Holy Church to the Last Pine Tree on the Left--doesn't matter to me. BUT, most people of whatever religion are not going to sit in a church week after week and listen to something that they totally disagree with. I abhor racism--there is no way in heck I would listen to a man of God spew that filth. Period. My church is much more than the preacher too. But, if the leader of that congregation used the pulpit to preach something as vile as hate for another race--I'm gone. That day, period. I wouldn't have to think twice about it. My child sits in the pew every Sunday and listens to what the preacher says. There is no way I would subject her to that.

The church and state is and should be separate. That is hardly the point. Racism has no part in any religion or church--even Obama's.

 

[luvsJack]

It might smack of common sense if the whole premise that Wright carried on like that for twenty years was accurate. However, since it's not the whole logical, sound judgment thing pretty much falls apart.

So, how long did he "carry on" like that?

BTW--I really couldn't care less where he was on that particular Sunday. I was in church but I know the whole country was not. Many, many prayers were said that week, but not all prayers were (or have to be) said in church.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I don't give a fig what religion our president is. Baptist, Catholic, Jewish or Holy Church to the Last Pine Tree on the Left--doesn't matter to me. BUT, most people of whatever religion are not going to sit in a church week after week and listen to something that they totally disagree with. I abhor racism--there is no way in heck I would listen to a man of God spew that filth. Period. My church is much more than the preacher too. But, if the leader of that congregation used the pulpit to preach something as vile as hate for another race--I'm gone. That day, period. I wouldn't have to think twice about it. My child sits in the pew every Sunday and listens to what the preacher says. There is no way I would subject her to that.

The church and state is and should be separate. That is hardly the point. Racism has no part in any religion or church--even Obama's.

Where, and please be specific, has Rev. Wright preached to his congregation that they should hate another race?

As for most people not sitting in a church week after week when they disagree with what is being preached, I disagree. Our churches are filled with people who firmly believe in buffet-style faith -- follow some teachings, not others.

 

[luvsJack]

Where, and please be specific, has Rev. Wright preached to his congregation that they should hate another race?

As for most people not sitting in a church week after week when they disagree with what is being preached, I disagree. Our churches are filled with people who firmly believe in buffet-style faith -- follow some teachings, not others.

Would you not define racism as hate for another race? Wright blames all of the problems of the black community on whites. He speaks of white people as though we are the definition of evil. He is racist. By example, if not by words, he teaches hate for another race.

Sitting in the pew and disagreeing with a point the preacher makes about a certain verse in the Bible, is one thing. Disagreeing with his entire belief system is totally different. What is the point of going to church and listening to a preacher's teachings that you totally do not believe in? That does not make sense.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Where, and please be specific, has Rev. Wright preached to his congregation that they should hate another race?

As for most people not sitting in a church week after week when they disagree with what is being preached, I disagree. Our churches are filled with people who firmly believe in buffet-style faith -- follow some teachings, not others.

DH and I left our church when the new pastor felt it appropriate to preach politics from the pulpit. I didn't attend church to listen to his opinions on that subject. I wouldn't sit through sermons that spewed hate either.

 

[mickeysgal]

Sitting in the pew and disagreeing with a point the preacher makes about a certain verse in the Bible, is one thing. Disagreeing with his entire belief system is totally different. What is the point of going to church and listening to a preacher's teachings that you totally do not believe in? That does not make sense.

Why would Obama get married by Wright and have his children baptised by Wright if he did not believe in Wright's teachings? It also doesn't make sense.

I guess it's possible to not believe in someone's teachings yet still get married by him and allow children to be baptised by him, but then that person would be an idiot with extremely faulty judgement. If the shoe fits...

 

[luvsJack]

Why would Obama get married by Wright and have his children baptised by Wright if he did not believe in Wright's teachings? It also doesn't make sense.

I guess it's possible to not believe in someone's teachings yet still get married by him and allow children to be baptised by him, but then that person would be an idiot with extremely faulty judgement. If the shoe fits...

Exactly!

This is one point I just cannot understand the blind defense of Obama by his supporters. He was in that church, at some point he had to know of Wright's beliefs. If his supporters really do not care if he agrees with Wright or not, then they should just say so--I would not be able to agree with them that it doesn't matter but at least it would make more sense than saying "he wasn't there" or "he listened to it but didn't agree".