A question for Christians

[pepperw23]

I guess a lot of this thread is precisely the problem I have with organized religion. I don't have all the answers. But I do know that no God I'll ever believe in would deny someone who is good of heart. My personal belief, take it for whatever it's worth.

I haven't read all the posts (only to this one, so I hope this didn't become a debate thread ha ha) but I agree with this statement 100%.

I do believe that Jesus died for our sins, but to teach us of love and sacrifice. I think God loves us more than we can ever know and comprehend. I mean heck, those of you that have children think about it...would you ever deny them entry back in to your home? Now multiply that love by a kajizillion katrillion and you still are not even close to the love God feels for us.

The Bible says we were created in his image, I believe that to mean the whole package. If God had not intended us to feel anger, he would not have given it to us, to not laugh we would not have been given a sense of humor and so on and so forth.

Since I was a little girl I have felt him in my heart...I have NO DOUBT he is there. And honestly, I think that is all any parent really wants in the long run...just acknowledge he is there, love him and trust him and love each other.

So my answer would be: Because I love you and you love me. (Then he would probably tell me I sound like the Barney song so I may need to rephrase that a tad before the big day. )

 

[jimmiej]

I assume you realize that whatever you're quoting here isn't the Bible but someone's interpretation of it?

What version do you believe is the true Bible? King James, NIV?

Here's what Matthew Henry's commentary says about that particular passage:

And here is the great gospel benefit, that whoever believes in Christ, shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, and so saving it. It could not be saved, but through him; there is no salvation in any other. From all this is shown the happiness of true believers; he that believeth in Christ is not condemned. Though he has been a great sinner, yet he is not dealt with according to what his sins deserve. How great is the sin of unbelievers! God sent One to save us, that was dearest to himself; and shall he not be dearest to us? How great is the misery of unbelievers! they are condemned already; which speaks a certain condemnation; a present condemnation. The wrath of God now fastens upon them; and their own hearts condemn them. There is also a condemnation grounded on their former guilt; they are open to the law for all their sins; because they are not by faith interested in the gospel pardon.

Source: Matthew Henry Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible
Henry's one volume Concise Commentary provides a condensed look at nearly every verse in the Bible. The original was written in 1706.

Sounds exactly like The Message version I quoted. Matthew Henry wrote his version 300 years ago.

Just for good measure, here's another commentator:

18. He that believeth on him is not condemned. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Faith in Christ is essential to salvation, because it is the power that leads to obedience to him. Is condemned already. "He that believeth not shall be damned." The unbeliever condemns himself. He is lost and refuses to be saved by Christ.

Source: People's New Testament
This work was written in 1891 for the novice student. It contains aids to help understand every verse

 

[bluefairy13]

Well, I'm out of this one because I am not going to go back through this thread and quote how many times I have stated I do not know all the answers and that I do think there is way more to all of this than we can ever understand.

For some reason, you are not wanting to hear that part. I am not disagreeing with you. I know that God is very complex and we cannot understand everything about Him.

I do not know what else to say either. I have said I do not have all the answers but I do have one...salvation comes through Jesus Christ.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you. I agree that salvation comes through Jesus Christ. I am just not sure that that's the end of the story.

If you respect other people's relationship with God and don't say that ONLY Christians have salvation, then I really do apologize.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Scripture only (sola scriptura) is a Protestant concept. Jews (as far as I'm aware) and Catholics believe that tradition preceded the Torah/Bible and in the case of Christianity, Christianity existed for decades before any of the New Testament was written, and it took hundreds of years before what we now call the New Testment was made "official."

The scriptures a Catholic would quote for the authority of tradition would be:

Paul to the Corinthians:
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2)

Paul to the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

Paul was writing letters to far flung congregations to instruct them -- he wasn't writing "The Bible" per se. He was elaborating on doctrines they were already practicing or had questions about.

With all due respect, I continue to disagree... What is being referred here is Christian concepts and 'tradition', which began with Christ himself... even before he walked on earth. Christ is the WORD... ( and the WORD dwelt among us...) So, I do not see any way that any christian tradition or humanly written word could pre-date Christ. ( Christ is the WORD, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. )

And, make no confusion here... the word 'tradition' is in no way being used to refer to anything that has to do with 'faith' or 'salvation'.

I do not see where 'tradition' here is being given any authority at all, none whatsoever.

There is a huge difference between saying.... I commend you for living in a good christian way... hold fast to your Christian faith... according the WORD of Jesus Christ" and saying, "You must do this, or that, because MY TRADITION says so..." This is, in fact, a HUGE problem that I have with the catholic church. I do not follow any man's tradition... I follow Christ, my creator and savior.

 

[Wishing on a star]

PS: traditional thoughts and practices change over time... The WORD never changes... There are many traditions, even some openly practiced by Christian's, which I, in my Christian heart, am thankful today are no longer accepted.... I do not feel called to follow any tradition of man.

 

[Aidensmom]

The way I see someone's personal relationship with God is this:

As a parent (the majority of them anyways), we love our child solely because they are our child. I believe God, as our "Father" does this also. However, the child may decide they want nothing to do with their parent. I don't know about everyone, but as a parent, if my child decided that about me, it would hurt, but I would let him go. I think that is what the ultimate point of Free Will is all about in terms of Christianity.

Now using that same scenario, I would respect my child's decision, and wouldn't be inviting him to dinner every Sunday or whatnot. He wouldn't want to be there anyways. This is how I see the afterlife. If you want nothing to do with God in life, why would you in death? So God is saying he is letting you go if you don't want to be with Him....

I am non-denominational, but I do believe in the "Protestant" belief that a belief and trust in God is all that is required to go to heaven, which to me means eternity in the presence of God as Christians understand Him, nothing more, nothing less. I have to be honest, I don't see how that is so much more judgmental than believing it is based on "works". I've done bad things in my life, I'm sure there are certain people here who claim to be so open minded that would tell me I am going to hell. Maybe that is why I believe in a forgiving God, I have a lot to be forgiven.

Just a thought, but if someone doesn't want anything to do with the Christian God, wouldn't it BE hell to spend the eternity with him? Maybe we all do go to heaven, but not everyone wants to be there.

I don't know the answers, but I really, really get stuck on the fact that people get worked up over who is going to heaven. That is NOT what my faith is about. If we just rotted in the earth when we died, I would still be a Christian. Really, the whole after death thing is not really that important to me. And yes, I would kind of question anyone who claimed the Christian faith only out of a fear of what would happen to them after death. I really don't think that is the main point of most people's faith.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

Bolded mine.

That's not true. Read 2 Corinthians 12.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In other words, he didn't meet the Man. He thinks he "heard" Him in his mind.
While he did meet Peter and James, there has never been any story of Paul ever meeting Jesus. In fact, he disagreed with those whom Jesus Himself picked to spread the gospel. So, if Paul was "called by God" to preach the way he "believed" then Jesus must not have been so perfect because he evidently chose the wrong people.
You also forget that Paul's goal was to spread the gospel to everyone. Not just Jews. He would have said pretty much anything to get people to believe in Christ. He told people that it was ok to eat foods that were not ok to eat according to the Jewish faith. He told them that males did not need to be circumcised as was law in the Jewish faith.
These are contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But, I never said that the bible was all lies. I think of it more like our first tabloid. Taking a piece of the truth and blowing it up out of most proportions.
So much of the bible is centered around Paul. But, he was a second hand believer. And his beliefs didn't necessarily coincide with those of Jesus.

 

[Buckalew11]

The way I see someone's personal relationship with God is this:

As a parent (the majority of them anyways), we love our child solely because they are our child. I believe God, as our "Father" does this also. However, the child may decide they want nothing to do with their parent. I don't know about everyone, but as a parent, if my child decided that about me, it would hurt, but I would let him go. I think that is what the ultimate point of Free Will is all about in terms of Christianity.

Now using that same scenario, I would respect my child's decision, and wouldn't be inviting him to dinner every Sunday or whatnot. He wouldn't want to be there anyways. This is how I see the afterlife. If you want nothing to do with God in life, why would you in death? So God is saying he is letting you go if you don't want to be with Him....

I am non-denominational, but I do believe in the "Protestant" belief that a belief and trust in God is all that is required to go to heaven, which to me means eternity in the presence of God as Christians understand Him, nothing more, nothing less. I have to be honest, I don't see how that is so much more judgmental than believing it is based on "works". I've done bad things in my life, I'm sure there are certain people here who claim to be so open minded that would tell me I am going to hell. Maybe that is why I believe in a forgiving God, I have a lot to be forgiven.

Just a thought, but if someone doesn't want anything to do with the Christian God, wouldn't it BE hell to spend the eternity with him? Maybe we all do go to heaven, but not everyone wants to be there.

I don't know the answers, but I really, really get stuck on the fact that people get worked up over who is going to heaven. That is NOT what my faith is about. If we just rotted in the earth when we died, I would still be a Christian. Really, the whole after death thing is not really that important to me. And yes, I would kind of question anyone who claimed the Christian faith only out of a fear of what would happen to them after death. I really don't think that is the main point of most people's faith.

Terrific post. I would also choose to be a Christian even if this life was all there is.
I like your parallel about free will also.

I have no idea what Hell is--maybe it is being with God when you do not want to be there. I doubt it but have never heard the thought before. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on all this.

 

[cteddiesgirl]

Terrific post. I would also choose to be a Christian even if this life was all there is.
I like your parallel about free will also.

I have no idea what Hell is--maybe it is being with God when you do not want to be there. I doubt it but have never heard the thought before. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on all this.

To me, Hell is right here on earth. It is basically nothing more than being apart from God.

 

[Buckalew11]

To me, Hell is right here on earth. It is basically nothing more than being apart from God.

Once again, we will have to disagree. I do not think this earth is heaven but I do not think it is Hell either. Hell is most likely separation from God. However, at Pentacost Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be here until the end of the age. So while earth is not heaven, God is not absent.

If we think this is bad, it will somehow get worse.

 

[Buckalew11]

double post

 

[cteddiesgirl]

To me, Hell is right here on earth. It is basically nothing more than being apart from God.

Once again, we will have to disagree. I do not think this earth is heaven but I do not think it is Hell either. Hell is most likely separation from God. However, at Pentacost Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be here until the end of the age. So while earth is not heaven, God is not absent.

If we think this is bad, it will somehow get worse.

I think you misunderstood me. I do think that hell is separation from God.
Apart = separation.
Our souls being on earth are physically separated from God.

 

[ford family]

Terrific post. I would also choose to be a Christian even if this life was all there is.

As a non believer I accept that this life is all there is but I also accept that the Christian ethic is, in the main, a good way to live my life. Stripping out all the religious mumbo jumbo leaves a set of rules that make sense for society to follow. I think they were around for thousands of years before the growth of Judaism and then Christianity but the former made a good job of codifying whilst the latter made a better job of distribution.

ford family

 

[Fitswimmer]

Scripture only (sola scriptura) is a Protestant concept. Jews (as far as I'm aware) and Catholics believe that tradition preceded the Torah/Bible and in the case of Christianity, Christianity existed for decades before any of the New Testament was written, and it took hundreds of years before what we now call the New Testment was made "official."

The scriptures a Catholic would quote for the authority of tradition would be:

Paul to the Corinthians:
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2)

Paul to the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

Paul was writing letters to far flung congregations to instruct them -- he wasn't writing "The Bible" per se. He was elaborating on doctrines they were already practicing or had questions about.

Here's another John 21:25

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

We don't know it all. The Bible doesn't contain it all and the Bible itself says that!

It is an essential interpretation difference which we really won't ever overcome.

 

[jimmiej]

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In other words, he didn't meet the Man. He thinks he "heard" Him in his mind.
While he did meet Peter and James, there has never been any story of Paul ever meeting Jesus. In fact, he disagreed with those whom Jesus Himself picked to spread the gospel. So, if Paul was "called by God" to preach the way he "believed" then Jesus must not have been so perfect because he evidently chose the wrong people.
You also forget that Paul's goal was to spread the gospel to everyone. Not just Jews. He would have said pretty much anything to get people to believe in Christ. He told people that it was ok to eat foods that were not ok to eat according to the Jewish faith. He told them that males did not need to be circumcised as was law in the Jewish faith.
These are contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But, I never said that the bible was all lies. I think of it more like our first tabloid. Taking a piece of the truth and blowing it up out of most proportions.
So much of the bible is centered around Paul. But, he was a second hand believer. And his beliefs didn't necessarily coincide with those of Jesus.

Read Acts 9.

 

[Texa]

Jimmie,

What church do you attend?

 

[Wishing on a star]

I don't know the answers, but I really, really get stuck on the fact that people get worked up over who is going to heaven. That is NOT what my faith is about. If we just rotted in the earth when we died, I would still be a Christian. Really, the whole after death thing is not really that important to me. And yes, I would kind of question anyone who claimed the Christian faith only out of a fear of what would happen to them after death. I really don't think that is the main point of most people's faith.

Wow... And the fact is that we are actually NOT to be judging others.. That is GOD's place. We are in no way qualified whatsoever. This is, in fact, the biggest part of our sin-nature... Thinking that we know right from wrong, thinking of ourselves as Gods... Anyone who supposes to think that they can make any determination about whether another person is going to 'Hell' should know, as a Christian, that they are commiting the most serious of sins.

About Hell... IMHO, there is no such thing as the recent post-modern notion of hell fire. The wages of sin is, very simply... death... The word hell in the scriptures is in most all cases a form of the word for 'the grave'... 'death'.

The Bible tells very specifically about the creation and existance of the heavens and the earth.. From genesis, through revelations... "and I saw a new heaven and a new earth". There is never any specific mention of hell.

It is either death or eternal life... It is not the will of God that any man should 'perish'. (again, the word perish, or die and cease to exhist.. not burn in hell fire forever...)

Many christians and christian denominations do not believe in Hell... It really is a relatively new, post modern, post Dante, concept... Just another example of MAN taking some words from the scripture and focusing on them, and interpreting them to meet their own limited and mortal flawed objectives.

I agree with you.... based on our experience of life here on earth, everlasting life is no great prize!!!! It is the opportunity to be reborn and be one with God that is what is at stake here. Everlasting life is NOTHING without GOD.

 

[Wishing on a star]

In other words, he didn't meet the Man. He thinks he "heard" Him in his mind.
While he did meet Peter and James, there has never been any story of Paul ever meeting Jesus. In fact, he disagreed with those whom Jesus Himself picked to spread the gospel. So, if Paul was "called by God" to preach the way he "believed" then Jesus must not have been so perfect because he evidently chose the wrong people.
You also forget that Paul's goal was to spread the gospel to everyone. Not just Jews. He would have said pretty much anything to get people to believe in Christ. He told people that it was ok to eat foods that were not ok to eat according to the Jewish faith. He told them that males did not need to be circumcised as was law in the Jewish faith.
These are contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But, I never said that the bible was all lies. I think of it more like our first tabloid. Taking a piece of the truth and blowing it up out of most proportions.
So much of the bible is centered around Paul. But, he was a second hand believer. And his beliefs didn't necessarily coincide with those of Jesus.

Wow... I am sorry but I can see so many areas where your thoughts are really off-base and not relevant...
So, does everyone who has preached the 'gospel' of Jesus Christ have to have personally, physically, met Jesus as he walked the earth... I maintain that anyone who is truly born again in Christ and who has Christ in their heart has SOOOO much more than anyone who may have met Jesus, but never accepted him. Meeting 'Jesus' as he walked the earth has no relevance.

And, now you purport to decide whether something Jesus did (i.e. those he chose to 'save' and to send forth to spread the Gospel) was WRONG... Wow... So 'you' and your opinion and your judgement are the alpha and the omega... PS: no man on this earth is 'perfect'. not the 12 desciples, not Paul, not anyone...

As far as Paul's teaching about eating of different foods... It is not what goes into the belly which defileth the man, but the words that proceed from his mouth... (what is eaten is simply cast out as waste...)

And circumcision... well, my thoughts on 'tradition' have been pretty clearly layed out in my last posts.... It is not circumcision, or non-circumcision which brings faith and salvation... 'Tradition', or practices, or works without faith, are dead... they have no authority at all.

All of this is part of the gospel of Christ...

Christ did not come because Jewish tradition was enough...

Christ came to bring a new gospel of faith and salvation.

I can see that we are on a totally different plane here.
If you can not accept Jesus Christ, as the WORD, by faith... then there really is no common ground to go on.


PS: edited to add... it sounds like you have a hard time with Paul... But, when you write that "so much of the Bible is centered around Paul...." Well, the Bible is a big book, filled with a lot of characters and a lot of big messages... The letters from Paul are in no way a major part of the Bible or of the gospel...

 

[frndshpcptn]

What were the basic food cahnges from Judiasm to Christianity? I know some of them today (pork, shellfish - I think) but were they the same back then?

 

[Corpsebride]

Faith without works is dead. You can pray all you want for God to help the homeless but unless you go hand out sandwiches and clean clothes to the homeless, you cant eat a prayer.
You can pray all you want that God care for the sick, and it doesnt matter what kind of illness it is, unless you are the one giving care and comfort to the sick, prayers that they dont know about, do nothing.
Jesus died for me so IF I beleive in him and am grateful, it is my duty to represent his rightesness (not mine) to honor him by doing his work. Not judging and deciding who gets in , who deserves Gods mercy and grace. I personally have expereinced so many "Good Christians" who are so judgemental and mean and beleive it is their right that they judge:
Gays-If God works in mysterious ways, then it is no ones business how or why, but only to live by the Golden Rule.
the homeless-But for the Grace of God.... No one wants to end up homeless, and sometimes it just happens. I have personally seen good Christians judge and ignore homeless people because they felt it in thier righteousness to be intolorant of someones mistakes. And sometimes, life just doesnt work out the way you planned.
Other Religious believers- God works in infinate ways, Why did he make many animals rather than one? Why did he give us higher thinking above those animals? To have tolerance and embrace with love and tolerance those unlike us it to truly understand and accept the differences in us make us the same. We arent animals. We are special, not just some of us.
To be a good Christian should be hard. It should make us work hard everyday to accept others with tolerance and love , just like Jesus.
So, in answer to your question, why should I be accepted into Heaven?
Because I chose to take on the task of doing the work of Jesus , with out question to love my fellow man, not just some of them because Jesus died for me. Now, you can choose to not do the work, but dont claim that you are a Christian.
Faith without works is dead.Words are empty. Actions are everything.
IF you just talk the talk, why would you think you would go to heaven?