A Crowded Weekend, FP+, And An Offsite Stay-Reporting Back (Very Long)

[clsteve]

So they have to walk back out. Same issue as FP- if the first FP checker was not paying close enough attention on return windows. Maybe better to have this and people walking back out than having all the crowds outside the ride in the FP return line.

Anyone know why all the testing Disney did over the months did not show this to a looming problem? I am picturing what the OP reported and can see how it would detract significantly. This should have been an easy one for Disney to figure out. They are supposed to be good at this kind of thing.

Unfortunately, under the old system, they were just collecting paper. Now,with MM+, they're collecting data- that's the issue.....

 

[ArwenMarie]

This is a moot point, but I don't think that they checked the paper ones that closely, some of the time anyway. Especially at the second checkpoint. There was a lot more leeway to just let people go through.

 

[MonorailCentral]

Excellent post, OP. Lots of detail, and good information that wasn't just a long complaint. Our experience w/the system a few weeks ago want bad, but it's easy to see how it could go downhill fast when bigger crowds are introduced. Definitely makes it a lot more hassle to stay offsite these days.

 

[anna08]

Thanks OP for a very detailed and informative post, and written fairly objectively!

I hate to be so cynical, but I feel like all the "FP+ is ok!" posters with less than 20 posts are paid Disney employees.

We are spring break vacationers - just there for 3 days this year and it will determine our next WDW vacations for the next 3 years. We have to plan vacations ages in advance, and if it's really lost the Disney ambience then we are going to take a long break. I'll reserve judgment for after our trip...or not. I have only one more trip planned but will not plan another until I've tried this system out. Already they are losing my future dollars.

Really, we are used to punishing crowds at WDW, but we had ways of making it work. I am one of those types that over-empathizes with folks and it will drive me crazy to see families waiting in hour long lines to get to a kiosk. I also hate to try to find the end of the line and have been snapped at once when I didn't realize a group lagging behind the line was truly still in line. Then I got to stand in line and get dirty looks from that group for the next 30 minutes. Yikes!

I can't even imagine how the CMs feel by the end of the day!!! They must be putting Zoloft in the water to keep any employees coming back.

And NOW they choose to raise ticket prices????!!!!!!
It seems admission should be half off during "testing"!!!

 

[tj4disney]

Excellent post, OP!

Just want to clarify your wait times. For instance, you indicated it took 14 minutes to get through the FP+ line at BTMRR...was that from getting in line to getting on ride? Or from getting in line to first scanner? If the latter, how long from first scan to getting on ride?

I'm trying to get a feel for total wait time. If you are saying total wait time was generally in the 10-15 minute range, that feels longer (but acceptable) to times I am used to (for most rides). If total wait time generally pushed into the 20-25 minute range, that starts feeling a little long for FP.

 

[Laketravis]

Wow. It's been over 3 months since we were there but the things you are describing are what we witnessed even back then over Thanksgiving week and the week after. And that was when the paper FP's were still available.

Doesn't sound like things are moving in the direction of improvement; am still anxious to see how peak season crowds are handled and what "corrections" they can/will come up with.

 

[JimmyV]

Excellent post, OP!

Just want to clarify your wait times. For instance, you indicated it took 14 minutes to get through the FP+ line at BTMRR...was that from getting in line to getting on ride? Or from getting in line to first scanner? If the latter, how long from first scan to getting on ride?

I'm trying to get a feel for total wait time. If you are saying total wait time was generally in the 10-15 minute range, that feels longer (but acceptable) to times I am used to (for most rides). If total wait time generally pushed into the 20-25 minute range, that starts feeling a little long for FP.

Waits were timed from the moment we got in line until the moment a CM asked us how many were in our group. For some rides like Soarin' and RnR, you still have some time to wait until you board the ride. But I figured that this was the best apples to apples approach. Also, this gave me time to stop my timer and record the time without holding up the boarding process. So for BTMRR, it was 14 minutes from the time we joined the line around the back of the ride (facing Tom Sawyer's Island) until the time we began walking to our boarding stall. Once in the stall, we still had to wait for two more trains before boarding the wildest ride in the wilderness.

 

[Planogirl]

Ugh, it just sounds like chaos is likely whenever the parks are busy. I've been during busy times but I can't recall ever seeing anything like what you describe.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share all of that.

 

[Ofinn]

I haven't tried FP+ yet but, we do have a trip planned for September. I know it won't be nearly as crowded then but, reading this just makes me sad.

It sounds like a total mess. It will be very interesting to see how spring break and summer crowds deal with it all.

My biggest concern is the SB lines. We are a family who goes to WDW for the rides. I know lots of folks tour differently and love the shows, parades, shopping or just soaking up the atmosphere but, for us it is all about riding as much as we can. It would be a disappointment for us if we were dramatically limited on how much we could ride.. and that has always been my biggest concern. It just wouldn't feel like we are getting the value we once did from Disney.

If you are a someone who goes to WDW a couple times a year or more I do not think these changes would dramatically change your enjoyment of WDW. Chances are you have ridden everything countless times and do not care if you miss several rides any given trip, there is always next time. However, if you are a family who comes to WDW maybe once or twice in a lifetime not getting to ride everything you want to is sort of a big deal.. because chances are there won't be a next time.

I know to posters on this forum the idea of only going to WDW maybe a couple times in a lifetime seems unrealistic and strange but, for the vast majority of people I am guessing this is true. Most of my friends and family have indeed taken a WDW vacation... once, and that is it... we are the only family I know besides a friend of my husband's who has gone more than once.
People actually think it is weird that we are planning our 4th WDW vacation this fall.

I guess I just put myself in the shoes of a family who has saved for years to go to WDW and have no intention of going back and then run into a cluster of a mess like what has been described with this FP+ over President's Day and I feel bad for them. It sounds like if you go during a quieter time it is much better but, not everyone can go in January or September.
I know some will say they didn't have to go during the "testing phase" but, I just received a mailer from Disney making MyMagic and FP+ sound amazing.. if I didn't read these forums I would think it was the best thing ever and would make my park experience better than it ever has been for anyone who has ever gone to WDW. Yeah. right.

I totally agree with you. This will be our 9th trip. We always stay onsite. We will do our favorite rides, eat at our favorite restaurants, spend a lot of our vacation at the BC pool. I feel bad for the people making their first trip or people that only go every three or four years. I think this is going to hurt Disney in a few years. Our first trip we stayed 10 days at the Poly with deluxe dining. The trip was awesome, and I was hooked. If I would have had to deal with FP+ and MDE on that trip I don't think I would have ever been back. I probably would have been upset about all the money I spent to deal with a new system. I have spent a ton of money at WDW over the last four years. I'm sure there are many others like me. I wonder how many first timers are going to be saying "I have to go again" after experiencing what OP described.

I'm not sure when we will be back after this trip. We have a number of cruises lined up we would like to do, and a trip to DC in the future. I'm glad we a got to experience all of our trips before FP+ took effect. Good luck to all the WDW newcomers.

 

[ArthurKing1220]

This is incredible feedback in several senses of the word -- thank you for taking the time to post it.

First, it's incredibly thoughtful -- your points about the physical length vs. waiting time for the FP+ lines and the effect of the FP+ system on the parks' aesthetics are really perceptive -- the sort of feedback that people are paid to give (are you a consultant somewhere? ).


Second, it's incredible in the sense of incredibly worrying! I generally take an attitude of "wait and see" with new system roll outs of any sort, but the sort of issues you are pointing out really and truly are structural, and difficult-to-remedy. Effects on initial guest experience upon entry to the park, park aesthetics, queue length (and the knock-on effect that that will have on guest psychology) -- these are things that are not easily remedied and seem to suggest that the FP+ system is really poorly designed vis-a-vis the current park system.

 

[Mkrop]

Great and well stated report!

I have a question and maybe I am just super tired, by are the ques inside the ride filled with FP riders or are you walking in an empty que to get to the ride, if so why the holdup outside. I can see it getting back up if you get a few blue Mickey issues that need to be dealt with but you would think most would flow pretty well once they get the green.

And I totally agree that they are giving out way more FP+s to keep people happy and liking the new system, I suspect they are even doing that with the changes that people are making on the fly...I mean Soarin is usually a FP that is gone on a busy day, yet people are claiming they can change this on the fly???? I think it is just letting them do it so people feel good about the system even if the capacity has already been reached.

 

[Shaden]

This report really does reinforce many of the FP+ critics worries.

1) that essentially FP+ will become the new standby, and that essentially unless you are willing to wait in massive lines, you will be pre-booking your 3 attractions, and that's pretty much it. Though, people will say "Hey, there is RD"

2) RD will become less valuable. Your experience with headliners have 75 min waits (posted at 25) by 9am, is exactly what many of us worried about. We have been told over and over again, that "This will never happen" "people won't show up for 9am FPs" ... well, apparently it happened, and if its happened once, I imagine its going to happen again. It makes sense that this happens, one of the major premises of this system is after all to disburse the crowds, to maximize efficiency of the attractions, meaning that they will be used to their maximum all day, not just in the afternoon.

So sure, you can still do RD and run to the rides and get a couple in quick (though its hilarious when people say "I hated having to run for FPs" but who say you can still rush around to get in headliners at RD). But from your report, it would seem you can get LESS done, even at RD, much less done on busy days.

I wonder how much more this will become apparent, while its always been true that RD could have been used to maximize your trip, it wasn't as necessary, if it continues to be more necessary, more people might just clue in, and RD might become much less valuable.

 

[JimmyV]

Great and well stated report!

I have a question and maybe I am just super tired, by are the ques inside the ride filled with FP riders or are you walking in an empty que to get to the ride, if so why the holdup outside. I can see it getting back up if you get a few blue Mickey issues that need to be dealt with but you would think most would flow pretty well once they get the green.

It depends on the ride. For example, at Space Mountain and BTMRR, once we tapped the Mickeys at the entrance to the rides, we raced through the rest of the queue area like mice running through a maze to get the cheese. Almost the entire wait was outside the buildings. So too with the Safari. But at rides like Soarin' and Test Track, the FP people merged in with the SB folks and had a more traditional wait, albeit, far shorter in time. Why the long lines outside the attractions you ask? I don't know the full details, but only what I saw. With the old system, the "alpha" in the group could wave a fist full of paper FPs and the CM would give a cursory glance and pass everyone through. 6 people could get in line in half a second. But Mickey is a more demanding gatekeeper. Every person, young or old, has to be told to tap the Mickey, has to twist their body and then their arm to make sure that the MB can touch Mickey, and then has to get the "all clear". About 10% of the time Mickey turns blue, prompting a "try again". And in some instances (far too many actually), the CM would look at a readout screen and see that the blue Mickey person didn't have a FP for that ride, or was too early or too late. In each instance, this adds but mere seconds to the wait. Sometimes up to 30. But it all adds up. Before you know it, the Everest FP line has merged with the Finding Nemo line. But once you get past the first Mickey, you run through the themed queue like the Yeti is chasing you. Which is all kind of sad. The beautifully themed queue areas are being wasted as people run right through the lines, but the real waiting is being done outside where there is no theming and where people are just in the way. The entire waiting paradigm has been turned inside out. Unless and until they eliminate the first Mickey tap, I don't see a way out of this box.

 

[JimmyV]

2) RD will become less valuable. Your experience with headliners have 75 min waits (posted at 25) by 9am, is exactly what many of us worried about. We have been told over and over again, that "This will never happen" "people won't show up for 9am FPs" ... well, apparently it happened, and if its happened once, I imagine its going to happen again. It makes sense that this happens, one of the major premises of this system is after all to disburse the crowds, to maximize efficiency of the attractions, meaning that they will be used to their maximum all day, not just in the afternoon.

It will be interesting to track the evolution of this. On this Board, populated by experienced, strategic Disney veterans, the immediate words of wisdom were to ride SB in the mornings and book your FPs for the afternoon. And it's a sound strategy which worked for us. But there are two problems (at least). The first is that not everyone is a forward-thinking Dis'er. On our very first ride on the very first day, we walked parallel to a couple at 8:20 a.m. in the FP line for the Safari while we whizzed through the SB line. My daughter gave me a knowing nudge and glance as if to say: "These fools just used a valuable Fast Pass to get on a ride that had a 3 minute SB wait". Same thing was happening all over the place. So the "smart" strategy of riding SB in the morning can get derailed a bit when less strategic people book their FPs for the morning and cut you off. When enough people do that, it matters. That was the issue at Test Track.

The other problem is that once the "prime" or strategic afternoon times book full, people will be forced to take 9:15 a.m. times for popular rides making the early SB lines move more slowly. Whereas under the old system, people returning with 9:30 FPs was rare, it will become more common now. Under the old system, the machines could not go back in time to fill early slots. The clock just kept ticking forward. Under the new system with advanced booking, the clock can go backwards and very early time slots will get backfilled once all the later times are gone. So people will use RD as the next line of defense as we did. But when that strategy gets to be too commonplace, RD won't be as meaningful because if everyone shows up at 8:00, then you aren't getting a jump on anyone.

The developing strategies will be like a game of chess. Not sure what the next move is. I am glad we went at a time when RD was still beneficial.

 

[mom2aandj]

Mickey is a more demanding gatekeeper. .

This is so Tag Fairy worthy!!!!

 

[summerskye]

It depends on the ride. For example, at Space Mountain and BTMRR, once we tapped the Mickeys at the entrance to the rides, we raced through the rest of the queue area like mice running through a maze to get the cheese. Almost the entire wait was outside the buildings. So too with the Safari. But at rides like Soarin' and Test Track, the FP people merged in with the SB folks and had a more traditional wait, albeit, far shorter in time. Why the long lines outside the attractions you ask? I don't know the full details, but only what I saw. With the old system, the "alpha" in the group could wave a fist full of paper FPs and the CM would give a cursory glance and pass everyone through. 6 people could get in line in half a second. But Mickey is a more demanding gatekeeper. Every person, young or old, has to be told to tap the Mickey, has to twist their body and then their arm to make sure that the MB can touch Mickey, and then has to get the "all clear". About 10% of the time Mickey turns blue, prompting a "try again". And in some instances (far too many actually), the CM would look at a readout screen and see that the blue Mickey person didn't have a FP for that ride, or was too early or too late. In each instance, this adds but mere seconds to the wait. Sometimes up to 30. But it all adds up. Before you know it, the Everest FP line has merged with the Finding Nemo line. But once you get past the first Mickey, you run through the themed queue like the Yeti is chasing you. Which is all kind of sad. The beautifully themed queue areas are being wasted as people run right through the lines, but the real waiting is being done outside where there is no theming and where people are just in the way. The entire waiting paradigm has been turned inside out. Unless and until they eliminate the first Mickey tap, I don't see a way out of this box.

This is not good. Part of the magic is in the details leading up to the ride. How sad!

 

[Lava124]

We are here this week and with lower crowds this has not been an issue for the most part.We ran into our first long FP+ line at AK yesterday.Safari had some ropes set up for the Line and they were filled.As we went through the line,it started to spill out in to the common walking areas so I Saw one way firsthand they are trying to shorten this line.They started only have one member of the party scan for fast pass.It did make the line clear up fairly quick.I didn't think of this until later but am wondering if that used up the fast pass for all family members or just the one who scanned.If it was just the one who scanned that could create even more issues if the others go into the app and now adjust that fast pass since they didn't use it yet.

 

[surferdave]

But once you get past the first Mickey, you run through the themed queue like the Yeti is chasing you. Which is all kind of sad. The beautifully themed queue areas are being wasted as people run right through the lines, but the real waiting is being done outside where there is no theming and where people are just in the way. The entire waiting paradigm has been turned inside out. Unless and until they eliminate the first Mickey tap, I don't see a way out of this box.

This was my experience using FP+ for Everest in October as well. The picture that was posted on Twitter of the Everest line on President's Day was exactly what it looked like on a not so crowded day when I was there, and that was with at least half the FP line using FP- and passing through quickly.

 

[JimmyV]

This was my experience using FP+ for Everest in October as well. The picture that was posted on Twitter of the Everest line on President's Day was exactly what it looked like on a not so crowded day when I was there, and that was with at least half the FP line using FP- and passing through quickly.

I don't have a Twitter account. Can you describe what the photo showed the line being like on President's Day? We were there on the Saturday of that weekend and the Touring Plan crowd number for AK that day was a 7. I imagine that on that Monday, it was far more crowded.

Edit to add: Just checked TP and it was an "8" on that Monday.

 

[Love Tink]

The entire waiting paradigm has been turned inside out. Unless and until they eliminate the first Mickey tap, I don't see a way out of this box.

If I can add a thought to this - I was thinking about how in the last few months Disney also radically revamped their guest assistance program.

With the old program, a party with a member who needed special access had a card that could be shown to the CM at the FP entrance. It took only about two seconds - as long as showing a paper FP.

With the new program, those who wish to use the DAS for access need to have a card with a specific time written on it, and the FP CM has to stop, check the card, and make sure the attraction and time match. They also have to confirm identity using a photo.

These changes may add only - what? maybe 10 or 15 seconds - to each special assistance group (unless, as with the blue Mickey, there is a problem, and then it would add more). But that might be enough that this concurrent change may have some part in why these lines are getting so long.