A Crowded Weekend, FP+, And An Offsite Stay-Reporting Back (Very Long)

[ultraviolet]

That is true, but can you book FPs FOR Epcot FROM MK for instance via the Kiosk ??? If so they could RD one park and book FPs for another from there ???

As of right now, you cannot. We were behind a guy at the International Gateway kiosk who tried to get FPs for a park other than Epcot and he was told that he could not.

This is the crux of the dilemma. If she were able to pre-book for the second park of the day, that would make a big difference. It's a shame that offsite guests can't use the iPhone app to pre-book, even if on the day of.

 

[JimmyV]

Do you think it is possible to get FP+ at Epcot (or any of the parks) for 10:00, 11:00 & 12:00 on a 9 day? I was under the impression that doing so would be difficult, that they'd have to be more spread out later into the day.

I'm going to impress upon her how they really must prioritize attractions and parks. She would be devastated if she couldn't ride ToT.

Thanks for your insight

There has yet to be a "9" day since the complete roll out, so no one knows. On the one hand, I have to believe that they will be holding back FPs for "day of" guests, but that they will be gone very quickly, so if she arrives at RD, getting those early times should be doable. As I noted, we were there during 7-8 crowds and got all but one thing by getting our FPs within 20 minutes of park arrival. On the other hand, we were told at 8:21 a.m. that Belle was "sold out" except for later in the evening, so it can happen. As far as riding ToT is concerned, if she gets to DHS at RD, (and I mean, really, really at RD) and heads straight to TSM, she should be at ToT 15 -20 minutes later. By that time, the line should not be more than 20-30 minutes even on a very busy day. FP+ may not be all that we want it to be, but it hasn't done anything to ruin the benefits of the first hour of RD, at least not yet. With the exception of TT/Soarin' which has now become an either/or proposition as opposed to a "walk on" followed by a 15-20 minute wait.

 

[LaurenT]

There has yet to be a "9" day since the complete roll out, so no one knows. On the one hand, I have to believe that they will be holding back FPs for "day of" guests, but that they will be gone very quickly, so if she arrives at RD, getting those early times should be doable. As I noted, we were there during 7-8 crowds and got all but one thing by getting our FPs within 20 minutes of park arrival. On the other hand, we were told at 8:21 a.m. that Belle was "sold out" except for later in the evening, so it can happen. As far as riding ToT is concerned, if she gets to DHS at RD, (and I mean, really, really at RD) and heads straight to TSM, she should be at ToT 15 -20 minutes later. By that time, the line should not be more than 20-30 minutes even on a very busy day. FP+ may not be all that we want it to be, but it hasn't done anything to ruin the benefits of the first hour of RD, at least not yet. With the exception of TT/Soarin' which has now become an either/or proposition as opposed to a "walk on" followed by a 15-20 minute wait.

I was in DHS on Sunday the 16th (president's weekend). Josh had WDW as a 9 that day. DHS was the preferred park. We were same day FP+ people. Rode TSM at RD and then got FP for RnRC, Star Tours and VotLM. Plenty of time slots available.
I don't know if TSM would have been available or what would have happens if we had tried to get them later in the day....

 

[JimmyV]

I was in DHS on Sunday the 16th (president's weekend). Josh had WDW as a 9 that day. DHS was the preferred park. We were same day FP+ people. Rode TSM at RD and then got FP for RnRC, Star Tours and VotLM. Plenty of time slots available.
I don't know if TSM would have been available or what would have happens if we had tried to get them later in the day....

We were there on the same day and got the FPs that we wanted, but did so at 9:00. Like you, I have no idea what the availability would have been later on, but since I saw people using FPs at Muppets and Indy, I am guessing that they didn't all get what they wanted. We requested mid to late afternoon times slots and got ToT, RnR and Star Tours. Bottom line is that I think that early arrival should still get you what you want. But who knows how that will change as more and more people learn of and use the system. We lose sight of the fact that many (most) people who were there over President's Day had never heard of FP+ until they got to the park. And those who did know something about it seemed to have much of their information wrong. There is still a huge learning curve that has to be accounted for.

By the way, I never went back to look until now, but Touring Plans had this day as an "expected" 7 but listed it as an "actual" 9. So I was wrong that there has yet to be a "9". There has been one. I was just going off the expected numbers.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

But who knows how that will change as more and more people learn of and use the system. We lose sight of the fact that many (most) people who were there over President's Day had never heard of FP+ until they got to the park. And those who did know something about it seemed to have much of their information wrong. There is still a huge learning curve that has to be accounted for.

I think that those who are likely to learn the system will remain a constant as a percentage of the patrons on any given day. In 5 years the system will be 5 years older, but most people will still do what they do - and that doesn't include a great deal of research into things like this. In fact, I would say that patrons are probably hearing MORE about FP+ now than they will in the future, as Disney is really hyping it as a new product. Once it becomes "old hat" and Disney stops pushing it in advertising, it will be as poorly known and utilized at FP-. At least, that is my guess.

 

[JimmyV]

I think that those who are likely to learn the system will remain a constant as a percentage of the patrons on any given day. In 5 years the system will be 5 years older, but most people will still do what they do - and that doesn't include a great deal of research into things like this. In fact, I would say that patrons are probably hearing MORE about FP+ now than they will in the future, as Disney is really hyping it as a new product. Once it becomes "old hat" and Disney stops pushing it in advertising, it will be as poorly known and utilized at FP-. At least, that is my guess.

Could be. But Disney at least now has the ability to bombard every email address linked to an upcoming trip with emails asking if the guest has booked their fast passes yet. I would think that some of that will get through. Also, AP holders who rarely used FP- because they go often enough not to care will likely start using FP+ as long as 75% of ride capacity is reserved for FPs. Same for returning guests. The people who proudly proclaim that they have been going to WDW for 30 years and never used FP- will soon change their tune as soon as they realize that FP+ is not "just like FP- only shinier" and instead is an entirely new system designed to afford space on rides to the 75% of those who get FPs. In other words, in the past, there wasn't a severe need to learn about FP. Now there is.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

In other words, in the past, there wasn't a severe need to learn about FP. Now there is.

Not sure that I follow. In the long term (after the marketing dies out), people are no more likely to learn of this system than FP-. "Need" doesn't come into it, because they will be totally unaware of it.

 

[JimmyV]

Not sure that I follow. In the long term (after the marketing dies out), people are no more likely to learn of this system than FP-. "Need" doesn't come into it, because they will be totally unaware of it.

The "need" comes from ride capacity versus the percentage of that capacity used for FP+. FP+ is allocating upwards of 75% of total capacity to people who have FPs. The numbers with FP- were nowhere near that. So at any given time under the old system, you could "suck it up" and ride SB. Some FP people would cut you off, but you could deal with that. With 75% capacity going to FP+ people, now, if you are in the SB line, you never move. So any guest who is ignorant of FP+ and who visits now will see 3/4 of every Rock-n-Roller Coaster limo fill up from the FP line and only 25% fill up from the SB line. After waiting 90 minutes to board, how long will it take them to conclude that the other line is better and they should figure out how to use it? Under the old system, when 60% of a limo filled up from the SB line and 40% of the line filled up from the FP line, one could brush this off. Test Track never had a 70 minute wait at 9:20 a.m. before. Now it does. So before, people didn't "need" FP because they would just head over to TT at 9:30 after riding Soarin'. Now, show up at TT at 9:30 and your eyes will bug out of your head. If you want to ride TT without an hour wait, you had better learn about FP+. I hope that explains it.

And, of course, most or all of this only pertains to the busy times. We have only begun to scratch the surface of that. People who visited from 1/5-2/15 probably didn't witness much, if any of this.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

The "need" comes from ride capacity versus the percentage of that capacity used for FP+. FP+ is allocating upwards of 75% of total capacity to people who have FPs. The numbers with FP- were nowhere near that.

Sorry, you got those numbers from a reliable source?

 

[clsteve]

I think that those who are likely to learn the system will remain a constant as a percentage of the patrons on any given day. In 5 years the system will be 5 years older, but most people will still do what they do - and that doesn't include a great deal of research into things like this. In fact, I would say that patrons are probably hearing MORE about FP+ now than they will in the future, as Disney is really hyping it as a new product. Once it becomes "old hat" and Disney stops pushing it in advertising, it will be as poorly known and utilized at FP-. At least, that is my guess.

They won't stop pushing because they can't stop pushing.

They can't go back to the Board and say we made a 1.5+ billion mistake.

FP's are what lock people in ahead of time and get guests where they want them, when they want them. They make MM+ "go"...

What about all of this incredibly expensive and resource demanding effort TDO is making leads you to believe FP+ will be poorly known and poorly utilized?

Every Exec, Board Member and Stockholder (well, most of them) is guessing otherwise.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

They won't stop pushing because they can't stop pushing.

Disagree - FP+ is not going to make or break the ROI model for the MM+ $1.5B spend.

When FP+ marketing is no longer effective, they will switch to the next marketing ploy.

 

[JimmyV]

Sorry, you got those numbers from a reliable source?

Nominally, they come from Josh's site. I can't verify them independently. Anecdotally, having been to WDW every year since 1972 save, maybe 5, the people piling into the FP return lines, the way the rides were boarding, and the length of the FP lines compared to the past lead me to believe that they are accurate. Of course, this being the "testing" phase, Disney could push a button and lower that 75% number to anything it wants. But at 9:20 in the morning, the vast majority of people getting on to TT were FP returnees. The posted wait at 9:15 was 30 minutes. I timed our wait and it was 75 minutes. When the angry SB mob asked the CMs how 30 became 75 so early in the day, the answer was: FP returns. If you have ever been in line at TT at 9:20 before, I am fairly certain that you did not get cut off by so many FP returnees that your wait bumped out to 75 minutes, unless, perhaps, it was Christmas. So, no, I cannot give a citation to the figures, but I trust them.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Nominally, they come from Josh's site. I can't verify them independently. Anecdotally, having been to WDW every year since 1972 save, maybe 5, the people piling into the FP return lines, the way the rides were boarding, and the length of the FP lines compared to the past lead me to believe that they are accurate. Of course, this being the "testing" phase, Disney could push a button and lower that 75% number to anything it wants. But at 9:20 in the morning, the vast majority of people getting on to TT were FP returnees. The posted wait at 9:15 was 30 minutes. I timed our wait and it was 75 minutes. When the angry SB mob asked the CMs how 30 became 75 so early in the day, the answer was: FP returns. If you have ever been in line at TT at 9:20 before, I am fairly certain that you did not get cut off by so many FP returnees that your wait bumped out to 75 minutes, unless, perhaps, it was Christmas. So, no, I cannot give a citation to the figures, but I trust them.

I have seen what you are describing, but attribute it to something very different. My theory - before FP- return times were enforced, the first 2-3 hours of headliner attractions saw only a light stream of FP return traffic, so the SB lines built more slowly. There was very little "competition" from FP returnees.

When FP- return times were enforced, the SB lines started to build after only about 30 minutes, as folks had to use those FP- or lose them. In January, I saw the same thing that I saw on my previous 3 trips with enforced FP- return times. The SB lines started to build about 30 minutes into the day.

SB lines were no longer than during any of my other trips under the same crowd conditions, nor were FP+ lines (though FP+ lines were out into the streets instead of contained within the queue).

So without seeing real numbers I have to trust my own judgment and observations. Lacking real evidence, I do not believe that the number of FP+ distributed is significantly higher than FP-. But I know that I could be wrong because I know that there is a hole in my knowledge and my experience represents a very small sample size. So, for now, we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Not sure that I follow. In the long term (after the marketing dies out), people are no more likely to learn of this system than FP-. "Need" doesn't come into it, because they will be totally unaware of it.

We don't know that the marketing for this will die out like it did for legacy FP. It's incredibly easy to set up automatic e-mails to prompt guests to make FP+ selections. Obviously they already have this set up. I don't see them disabling it just because.

 

[DisneyFive]

Wow OP, thanks for the excellent write up and for taking the time to share your thoughts.

You know what, this might sound weird (me being a manly guy and all ) but this really makes me sad. Sure, FP+ is still early in its introduction, but there is so little that it improves versus the negatives. We used it (onsite guests) this past Sept for 10 days and overall we prefer the old paper FP’s. …and that was even with the ability to prebook our FP+’s in advance, without the restriction of tiering.

Back to what makes me sad; the lines. Lines as long as you describe, in addition to the kiosk lines, didn’t exist before. Sure, lines would form here and there, but as I visualize the lines as you describe them, I can totally imagine how much it takes away from the appeal and feel of an area. Major bummer and just plain sad.

Add to that the fact that you need to queue up just to book your FP+’s. How ironic. New queues to get FP’s that are designed to reduce queues. Talk about a real downer just as you enter the parks.

Glad this didn’t wreck your stay. We’re giving Disney a break this year, after four fantastic years in a row, it’s time for something different. We’re letting this FP+ stuff all settle out before we think about heading back. We’ve booked a non Disney cruise this year instead.

Dan

 

[clsteve]

Disagree - FP+ is not going to make or break the ROI model for the MM+ $1.5B spend.

When FP+ marketing is no longer effective, they will switch to the next marketing ploy.

Well, let's just hope the next "marketing ploy" is much less painful to Guests and CM's......

 

[mom2mickeyfan]

I have seen what you are describing, but attribute it to something very different. My theory - before FP- return times were enforced, the first 2-3 hours of headliner attractions saw only a light stream of FP return traffic, so the SB lines built more slowly. There was very little "competition" from FP returnees.

When FP- return times were enforced, the SB lines started to build after only about 30 minutes, as folks had to use those FP- or lose them. In January, I saw the same thing that I saw on my previous 3 trips with enforced FP- return times. The SB lines started to build about 30 minutes into the day.

SB lines were no longer than during any of my other trips under the same crowd conditions, nor were FP+ lines (though FP+ lines were out into the streets instead of contained within the queue).

So without seeing real numbers I have to trust my own judgment and observations. Lacking real evidence, I do not believe that the number of FP+ distributed is significantly higher than FP-. But I know that I could be wrong because I know that there is a hole in my knowledge and my experience represents a very small sample size. So, for now, we'll just agree to disagree.

I would think one thing that might cause SB lines to build more quickly is the fact that FP+ return times start right at park opening. With the paper FPs, the earliest return time was 9:45. So for 45 minutes it was only SB guest that were riding.

 

[Planogirl]

It would make sense that more FP+ are being distributed than legacy fastpasses. After all the system assigns those three fastpasses to onsite guests whether they want them or not.

 

[FlipHipster]

Great analogy! I've seen that line.

Exactly . If they open adv booking up to everyone, they will have to come up with a way to enforce a commitment on part of the user to actually use the FP. Kinda like what they do with ADRs. Don't know what they have planned but surely they can't just let everyone with a ticket book a FP for TSMM just because, maybe we are going this weekend, maybe we aren't better grab one JIC.....

I'm sure they are still tweaking and probably not where they expected to be given the rocky rollout, so I am trying hard not to read too much into the long FP lines (just a few easy one liners ). Still, its going to be interesting to see how they eventually achieve balance on this one. How do you allocate enough FP to appease everyone that wants to book 60 days out, PLUS allocate enough for booking between 59-1 days out, PLUS allocate enough for same day booking AND not make the SB lines unbearable because you allocated most of your capacity to FP? It seems like they are painting themselves into a corner.

Of course not knowing the end game, its possible they are right on target and everything is going according to plan.

And many thanks to the OP for a great detailed review.

 

[clsteve]

Exactly . If they open adv booking up to everyone, they will have to come up with a way to enforce a commitment on part of the user to actually use the FP. Kinda like what they do with ADRs. Don't know what they have planned but surely they can't just let everyone with a ticket book a FP for TSMM just because, maybe we are going this weekend, maybe we aren't better grab one JIC.....

I'm sure they are still tweaking and probably not where they expected to be given the rocky rollout, so I am trying hard not to read too much into the long FP lines (just a few easy one liners ). Still, its going to be interesting to see how they eventually achieve balance on this one. How do you allocate enough FP to appease everyone that wants to book 60 days out, PLUS allocate enough for booking between 59-1 days out, PLUS allocate enough for same day booking AND not make the SB lines unbearable because you allocated most of your capacity to FP? It seems like they are painting themselves into a corner.

Of course not knowing the end game, its possible they are right on target and everything is going according to plan.

And many thanks to the OP for a great detailed review.

2 really good points, here. It's obvious from Op's post and the pictures that some unforeseen problems and issues are cropping up and impacting crowd flow and line management.

How will that impact the timeline they had planned for off-site will be interesting. There's not that much time left to give off-site advanced booking for the Summer Season.

As will are there any major changes for line and crowd control, day of FP's, Kiosks, etc., in a couple of weeks for Spring Break thru Easter. Will there be an even larger CM presence in the Parks to help manage it, for example