7DmkII or 70D?

[havoc315]

Ergonomics are subjective, except when it comes to button placement, or hiding key features in menus. I would also argue how comfortable you feel a camera is has little to do with what you're used it.

When shopping for my first DSLR, I chose a Canon because I preferred the shape, and size of the grip. It had nothing to do with the point and shoot I had been using prior.

The problem with using Flickr numbers to support your case is 1. Flickr is dying. 2. It's mostly enthusiasts who use Flickr, If you look at the Canon numbers, the camera with the most activity is the 5D Mkiii, I can guarantee they sell a lot more Rebels than they do 5Ds.

BTW, the there are only 6.8 million photos captured by an a6000 on Flickr, in comparison to 80 million from the D3100 and 129.8 million from the 7.

a6000 is not even close.

The d3100 has been around MUCH longer. The valid comparison is the d3300-- as they came out the same time. Or look the number of users yesterday. Not the number of photos uploaded years before the a6000 was released.

Or go look at Amazon sales rankings, which shows them ranked close together.

I don't know how a comment about Canon T5 Rebel sales, somehow means that the d3300 outsells the a6000???

Sony ILC is about 90% mirrorless now. Nikon ILC is about 90% traditional dslr. In terms of ILC market share, Nikon sells twice as many ILC cameras as Sony (per CIPA), so certainly, many Nikon models outsell many Sony models. But it doesn't mean that every Nikon model outsells every Sony model. That simply isn't logical.

 

[havoc315]

Ergonomics are subjective, except when it comes to button placement, or hiding key features in menus. I would also argue how comfortable you feel a camera is has little to do with what you're used it.

.

Still subjective, because it's a matter of which buttons you need. If you are a fully auto-shooter, then having tons of buttons can lead to confusion, can lead to pushing the wrong button.

Some cameras have video function buttons taking a greater precedence... less important for other shooters.

Then it's a matter of which features you will use most often... Is it more important to have a dedicated ISO button, or a dedicated button for continuous drive. Depends on the shooter.

There are some very generalized statements we can make out ergonomics -- customizable buttons are good. Generally a lot of menu diving is bad. Deeper grips are good. But really, it still becomes mostly subjective.

 

[havoc315]

The problem with using Flickr numbers to support your case is 1. Flickr is dying. 2. It's mostly enthusiasts who use Flickr, If you look at the Canon numbers, the camera with the most activity is the 5D Mkiii, I can guarantee they sell a lot more Rebels than they do 5Ds.

BTW, the there are only 6.8 million photos captured by an a6000 on Flickr, in comparison to 80 million from the D3100 and 129.8 million from the 7.

a6000 is not even close.

I already commented upon it, but let's look at the actual numbers:

We don't look at the number of photos posted years ago.. we look at CURRENT popularity:

Sony A6000:

• 31,738 uploads from 760 users yesterday

Nikon D3300:

• 26,610 uploads from 496 users yesterday

Both these cameras were released at around the same time, so this comparison is logical.
Yes, it is imperfect... But it certainly does not show that the D3300 is wildly more popular than the A6000. If anything, it shows the opposite.

Now, let's look at Amazon sales rankings:

Nikon D3300 with kit lens: #115 in Camera & Photo
Sony A6000 with kit lens: #147 in Camera & Photo
(There are actually very few ILC cameras that even make the top 100... you can find a Sony NEX 5 in the top 100, ironically, an older camera. You can find the Canon T5 there. You can find pre-orders for the Sony A7rsii in the top 100, but that's a temporary bump)

They are very very close to each other.... Now, I never claimed that the A6000 outsold the D3300. I said it was a best selling camera. And JEC claimed that its sales were way behind the D3300. There is NO evidence to support that statement.
The A6000 is Sony's best selling camera, and it seems to compete very nicely with Canon and Nikon best selling cameras.

 

[SkaGoat]

They are very very close to each other.... Now, I never claimed that the A6000 outsold the D3300. I said it was a best selling camera. And JEC claimed that its sales were way behind the D3300. There is NO evidence to support that statement.
The A6000 is Sony's best selling camera, and it seems to compete very nicely with Canon and Nikon best selling cameras.

There is no useful evidence to support the claim that a6000 is outselling the D3300 either...

The only evidence you gave was Flickr, which is flawed, and Amazon, which it's under the D3300 on that list.

One reason I'd be reluctant to advise someone who is thinking of picking up the hobby of photography from buying Sony mirrorless is there is no room to grow.

If you want to move to full frame, or if you want to get that 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, or that ultra-wide 10-18mm, there is less choice there, in some cases no options.

When Sony's lens lineup gets better, I would give them another look for sure.

 

[jec6613]

Sony ILC is about 90% mirrorless now. Nikon ILC is about 90% traditional dslr. In terms of ILC market share, Nikon sells twice as many ILC cameras as Sony (per CIPA), so certainly, many Nikon models outsell many Sony models. But it doesn't mean that every Nikon model outsells every Sony model. That simply isn't logical.

CIPA doesn't break out numbers by manufacturer, that's part of the deal, so I don't know where you're getting your numbers from there. Nor do they break out DSLR vs Mirrorless per company either - in fact, nobody does, except Sony themselves in their own financial reports (to toot their own horn). If you took the time to read the CIPA statistics (they're one page each ...), you'd know that. Here's the link: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

Sony states in their yearly report that their market share in 2014 grew to 34.2% of the mirrorless market in their best market (Japan), with others lagging behind. Assuming we apply that figure to the entire world, that means Sony shipped 1.1 million mirrorless cameras in 2014 (they didn't, remember, this is giving Sony the boost of using their highest local market share, globally). This means an optimistic 7.8% market share of all ILC by Sony mirrorless, worldwide; remember, in reality, it's certainly lower because we are taking their best single country market share and applying it worldwide. During that time, Nikon shipped 1.7 million D3300 to places other than the US, just based on the number of serial numbers they used.

That means one camera SKU from Nikon must have outsold the entire Sony mirrorless camera lineup, and that one D3300 SKU sold more than 50% more units than the entire Sony mirrorless division. There is no method by which massaging numbers can create a better situation, since I artificially inflated Sony's numbers there, and used the lowest numbers for Nikon (the ones that could be proven beyond a doubt). So has the D3300 outsold the a6000? Yes, by definition it must have.

Does this mean that every Nikon model outsells every Sony model? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. There are Nikon models that number in the tens or hundreds of thousands produced, such as the D3X, D4, D800E or D810A. Does it mean that their most popular current production models outsells all of Sony mirrorless offerings put together by a comfortable margin? Yes, it does.

These are public financial reports and warranty service reports, you can look them all up yourself if you'd like.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[havoc315]

CIPA doesn't break out numbers by manufacturer, that's part of the deal, so I don't know where you're getting your numbers from there. Nor do they break out DSLR vs Mirrorless per company either - in fact, nobody does, except Sony themselves in their own financial reports (to toot their own horn). If you took the time to read the CIPA statistics (they're one page each ...), you'd know that. Here's the link: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

Sony states in their yearly report that their market share in 2014 grew to 34.2% of the mirrorless market in their best market (Japan), with others lagging behind. Assuming we apply that figure to the entire world, that means Sony shipped 1.1 million mirrorless cameras in 2014 (they didn't, remember, this is giving Sony the boost of using their highest local market share, globally). This means an optimistic 7.8% market share of all ILC by Sony mirrorless, worldwide; remember, in reality, it's certainly lower because we are taking their best single country market share and applying it worldwide. During that time, Nikon shipped 1.7 million D3300 to places other than the US, just based on the number of serial numbers they used.

That means one camera SKU from Nikon must have outsold the entire Sony mirrorless camera lineup, and that one D3300 SKU sold more than 50% more units than the entire Sony mirrorless division. There is no method by which massaging numbers can create a better situation, since I artificially inflated Sony's numbers there, and used the lowest numbers for Nikon (the ones that could be proven beyond a doubt). So has the D3300 outsold the a6000? Yes, by definition it must have.

Does this mean that every Nikon model outsells every Sony model? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. There are Nikon models that number in the tens or hundreds of thousands produced, such as the D3X, D4, D800E or D810A. Does it mean that their most popular current production models outsells all of Sony mirrorless offerings put together by a comfortable margin? Yes, it does.

These are public financial reports and warranty service reports, you can look them all up yourself if you'd like.

1 -- That makes absolutely no sense. And since you are the one who wanted to cite Thom Hogan, where are you getting an optimistic Sony market share of 7.8%? Thom estimates it at almost double that! http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/interchangeable-lens-market.html --- Almost a year ago, Thom estimated Sony's worldwide marketshare as 12-14%. And you think you are being optimistic at 7.8%????

2 -- It's false. As you said, we only have numbers for Japan. Thom Hogan did a nice job analyzing the BCN/CIPA numbers. Unlike you, I actually provide links: http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/understanding-numbers-japan.html

• Canon*: 670k ILC units sold in Japan in 2014, 37% overall ILC market share
• Nikon*: 460k ILC units, 25% ILC market share
• Sony*: 265k ILC units, 14.5% ILC market share
• Olympus: 159k ILC units, 8.7% ILC market share
• Pentax*: 106k ILC units, 5.7% ILC market share
• Panasonic: 89k ILC units, 4.9% ILC market share
• Fujifilm: 76k ILC units, 4.1% ILC market share

3-- So based on Thom's analysis ... and somehow, you were citing some imaginary T5 QVC analysis as somehow proving a point about the A6000.. but here we have the real analysis by Thom... Sony ILC sales were 57% of Nikon ILC sales.
My "90%" was a guestimate --- But we know the overwhelming number of Sony ILC sales are mirrorless, and we know that the overwhelming majority of Nikon ILC sales are dSLR (as they don't even have APS-C or full frame mirrorless cameras on the market). Now, Nikon also had more models on the market in 2014. Regardless... Based on these numbers, we know NOTHING about individual unit sales. But we know your statement: That the D3300 outsells all Sony mirrorless combined -- we know that statement is FALSE. Unless, does the D3300 account for 57% of All Nikon sales????? Unless the D3300 accounts for 57% of Nikon sales, then your statement is absolutely positively FALSE.

4-- If you are indeed claiming that the D3300 does account for 57% of all Nikon sales, that would mean all the other models sell pathetically. Which would make the A6000 more popular than every Nikon except the D3300. (So which is it? Want to drop your absurd claim that the D3300 sells more models than all mirrorless combined?)

5-- Theoretically, if the A6000 accounted for 40% of Sony sales -- for about 106k units in the market being studied... and the D3300 accounted for 23% of Nikon ILC sales... then the A6000 and D3300 would be approximately tied in total sales. While my numbers are theoretical -- because neither of us know the actual numbers -- my numbers are a reasonable illustration.

So here is what we know and don't know:
We know that total Sony ILC sales in Japan are only 57% of Nikon sales. We don't really know the rest of the world.
We know that the A6000 and D3300 are both popular models.
We know that they have similar Amazon sales rankings, we know the a6000 is more popular on flickr.
Based on the numbers available, it is physically impossible to determine the exact relative positions of the A6000 and D3300. It remains reasonably possible that the D3300 somewhat outsells the A6000.. it remains reasonably possible they sell in similar numbers, and it remains reasonably possible that the A6000 outsells the D3300.
Looking further at discounts off original pricing, the D3300 has been more heavily discounted than the A6000. This doesn't tell us anything about total sales, but it does indirectly suggest that A6000 is meeting/beating sales expectations better than the D3300. (though we don't know what those expectations were, so we can't comment on total sales based on that information).

Now, where do you have the evidence that Nikon shipped 1.7 million D3300s? Provide a citation, provide an authority that Nikon never skips serial numbers, etc. Secondly, shipments are NOT sales.
Do I believe that Nikon has sold 1.7 million D3300's in the last year? Not really.

 

[havoc315]

There is no useful evidence to support the claim that a6000 is outselling the D3300 either...

The only evidence you gave was Flickr, which is flawed, and Amazon, which it's under the D3300 on that list.

One reason I'd be reluctant to advise someone who is thinking of picking up the hobby of photography from buying Sony mirrorless is there is no room to grow.

If you want to move to full frame, or if you want to get that 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, or that ultra-wide 10-18mm, there is less choice there, in some cases no options.

When Sony's lens lineup gets better, I would give them another look for sure.

No, we don't know with any certainty. I'm just disproving the statement that the D3300 vastly outsells the A6000.

But what do you mean there is no reason to grow? I'd actually say the exact opposite with the Sony system. Again, I'm currently a Nikon shooter. I have no horse in this race.
But to me, by being a Nikon or Canon shooter, I'm limiting my growth to whatever that system gives me.

On the other hand, Sony is going in the direction of unlimited growth potential. Moving in a direction where I can affordably step up to full frame. Moving in a direction of allowing me to use ANY lens, from ANY system. As a Canon shooter, you can only use Canon-mount 70-200/2.8 lenses. A Sony shooter can use the Canon-mount 70-200 lenses, the Sony A-mount 70-200 lenses, and likely very soon, the Nikon mount 70-200/2.8 lenses. So far far more options for the Sony shooter, but much of that is in the future. And for a Canon shooter, if they want to grow into full frame, they need to change all their lenses anyway!

My advice is simple --- If you are already invested in a system, there probably is no reason to switch. Think twice, before going through the trouble of switching. Your current system can probably meet your needs.
If you are not invested into a system -- Then think carefully about your short-term and long-term needs. If you have highly specific short term needs, then you need to carefully weigh each system. There may be a single lens that becomes the deal-maker/breaker for you. There may be a single feature that becomes the deal maker/breaker for you.
If you plan on only doing "kit" type APS-C shooting for the foreseeable future, unless you just love big bulky camera bodies, it is very very hard to recommend traditional dSLRs to most people. Take a Rebel or D3300 with kit lens and basic telephoto kit lens... and it's hard to see any advantages over a Sony A6000/Fuji/Samsung. Sure, you can say, "hey... maybe in 5 years they will want a light-weight 300mm prime, so they really should go with Nikon, but not Canon! Or maybe in 5 years, they will want a 11-24 ultrawide, in which case they better go with Canon, and not Nikon!" Obviously, most novice shooters will never go beyond kit lenses, maybe basic primes. And for those that will eventually get advanced lenses, they don't know which ones they would want yet. They very well might want a 135STF lens, which is only available in Sony mount. And 5 years from now, those Sony cameras will be full universal mounts anyway. Probably in the successor to the A6000.

I have a simple dare for you... Go rent an A6000 and try it for a week. Get over hating it in the first couple of hours as you get over your prejudices... See how you feel after shooting with it exclusively for a few days. Then comment objectively.

It's easy for all of us to say, "I love my current system... I'm sure it must be better than other systems.. though I really have no experience with those other systems... but mine must be better."

I always find the most objective discussions are when people discuss the negatives of their current system and positives of other systems. (I am formerly a Sony A-mount shooter, I am current a Nikon F-mount shooter.. I have never ever been a Sony mirrorless shooter though I am very familiar with the product).

So try it.. In fact, I dare both of us... If you will go try an A6000 for a week, I'll try the camera of your choice for a week. And then we can compare.

 

[bob100]

If I was to take it Disney, shooting dark rides would be part of it. There is no doubt that the M creates quality pictures that are on par if not superior to what my 40D produced. The M3 most certainly would surpass the 40D in every way. I guess I will have to actually go to a shop and see if the missing viewfinder would be much of a problem for me. The kids have a point and shoot with an awesomely slow LCD screen when you take pics (but then, they are kids, they are happy with it) and it just irks me that you have to wait seconds for the screen to reappear after taking a pic so I can take the next pic. You can't practically shoot "blind". You need to wait till you see something on the screen and then take the next picture. If the EOS M behaves in a similar way, I think it wouldn't be the way for me to go. But seeing how the M has a burstrate of ~2fps with M lenses, you must be able to shoot blind in some way.

yes, for sure go to a retail store that has camera models and compare the features. For me having a pocket-size APS-C camera at a low price was more important than FPS burst rate and AF speed. The events that I attend could be (and probably are) quite different than your situation and requirements. For my purposes I could care less whether the AF speed is .60 seconds or .40 seconds the photos still look the same. I know I will never going to use this camera for sports and BIF shooting!
Well maybe, this fall when I'm shooting soccer and field hockey I may attach the mirrorless M to my 100-400 and see what happens.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless/
https://www.flickr.com/groups/eos-m

 

[photo_chick]

Who needs a new camera. Apparently there are things I've never considered. I think I've decided I'm only using my Windows phone to shoot everything from now on. Combined with my iPad because i'm a rebel that way. And I'm gonna hold that screen high in the air in the darkest environment possible.

 

[boBQuincy]

"And I'm gonna hold that screen high in the air in the darkest environment possible."

Yes! That's what makes the photo, when I hold my phone up and not only get Cinderella's castle but also a thousand tiny images of the castle on all the little screens in front of me. And I don't need full-frame, APS, 4:3, or even 1/2.3, just an old phone to give it that kinda' grainy film look!

 

[WilsonFlyer]

"And I'm gonna hold that screen high in the air in the darkest environment possible."

Yes! That's what makes the photo, when I hold my phone up and not only get Cinderella's castle but also a thousand tiny images of the castle on all the little screens in front of me. And I don't need full-frame, APS, 4:3, or even 1/2.3, just an old phone to give it that kinda' grainy film look!

There's an app for that!

The guys completely hijacking the thread oughta get a room. It's not even on-topic.

 

[PrincessInOz]

@photo_chick I hope you'll share which one you and your DH got. I'm hoping that you decide on the 7DMII...but as you say, it'll be how it feels in the hands when you get to the store.


Interesting conversation on this thread.....but I'm with @WilsonFlyer. Please take it to another thread....or room. Personally, I'd be interested to see the pictures of how the cross-equipment challenge goes. I might even have a few things to share on that thread...should you start one.

 

[photo_chick]

Hey, I'm as guilty as they are of taking a thread OT from time to time. Sometimes ideas pop up and discussions happen.

PrincessInOz we're planning on the 7DmkII. The only question is will we pull the trigger now, or will we build a deck in the backyard now and pull the trigger in January. I was all set to order the camera and then the rain stopped and I saw I actually have a nice backyard with grass under all those down tree limbs.

 

[PrincessInOz]

Hey, I'm as guilty as they are of taking a thread OT from time to time. Sometimes ideas pop up and discussions happen.

PrincessInOz we're planning on the 7DmkII. The only question is will we pull the trigger now, or will we build a deck in the backyard now and pull the trigger in January. I was all set to order the camera and then the rain stopped and I saw I actually have a nice backyard with grass under all those down tree limbs.

Oh dear! That's one of those real life conundrums!

Both! Both!!



(Can you tell how much I enjoy spending other people's money??? )

 

[SkaGoat]

Hey, I'm as guilty as they are of taking a thread OT from time to time. Sometimes ideas pop up and discussions happen.

PrincessInOz we're planning on the 7DmkII. The only question is will we pull the trigger now, or will we build a deck in the backyard now and pull the trigger in January. I was all set to order the camera and then the rain stopped and I saw I actually have a nice backyard with grass under all those down tree limbs.

Make sure you let us know when you get it, and what you think of it!

 

[havoc315]

Hey, I'm as guilty as they are of taking a thread OT from time to time. Sometimes ideas pop up and discussions happen.

PrincessInOz we're planning on the 7DmkII. The only question is will we pull the trigger now, or will we build a deck in the backyard now and pull the trigger in January. I was all set to order the camera and then the rain stopped and I saw I actually have a nice backyard with grass under all those down tree limbs.

My apologies for letting an off topic convo get a bit carried away.

I suspect you'll be damn happy with the 7dii... If there isn't a rush, I'd suspect a few dollars to be knocked off the price by Christmas time.

 

[mom2rtk]

Danielle, can I assume you are subscribed to Canonpricewatch.com?

 

[photo_chick]

Danielle, can I assume you are subscribed to Canonpricewatch.com?

Yep.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

The 7D MkII is due any day to show up at pricewatch. It's been a couple of months (almost now) and the biggest grey marketer on eBay is not even showing it in his list right now. That's usually a sign that a slam is coming. Keep up the faith. I'm watching it too. Every day.