2020 Point Charts

[zavandor]

"Unfortunately, your response fails to address my question. As far as I am aware, the total point allocation for a year for a resort, in this case the Villas at the Grand Floridian, cannot change from year-to-year. This does not appear to be the case as 21 one week stays across the various units have increased while only seven have decreased. I would like to be provided with the point allocation totals for this resort to either confirm my suspicion that the point change violates the terms of our contracts, or abides by the rules. Possibly member accounting will need to be consulted."

Tjkraz has done this calculation in this post: https://www.disboards.com/threads/2020-point-charts.3725229/page-9#post-60056403
When considering all 2BR lockoffs booked as 2BR, the 2019 and 2020 charts are within 260 points of each other. This satisfies the legal requirements.
But when considering all lockoffs booked as studio+1BR 2020 chart has 2.87% more points than 2019.
Given that studios at VGF are a very hot commodity, I think 90% of lockoff are booked as studio+1BR. In 2020 members will have to use about 2.5% more points to book the resort. It seems unfair to me.

 

[zavandor]

Regardless, I'm personally comfortable that the changes are not only within the legal allowances, but reasonable to reasonable people if they had all the specifics.

You have always said an increase of studios and a decrease of 1BR was coming. You never predicted and increase of studios AND 1BR. Not so reasonable, it seems.

 

[Dean]

I contacted DVC regarding the point change to VGF and received the following response:
"Thank you for contacting Disney Vacation Club regarding our 2020 Vacation Points Charts.

I have reviewed your message below and appreciate your feedback regarding these periodic adjustments.

I apologize for any disappointment the adjustment in points may have caused to you and your family.

Every year, Disney Vacation Club Leadership reviews Member vacation patterns to ensure our Vacation Points Charts reflect the ever-changing interests of our Members. These adjustments consider many factors, including travel season, room view allocations, villa size, Resort demand and, most importantly, the feedback we receive from our Member community. Our goal is to ensure our Members have the opportunity to use and enjoy Vacation Homes at all times of the year.

As you mentioned, several adjustments have occurred to the 2020 Vacation Points Charts at Walt Disney World Resort. These changes occur in a variety of circumstances, including when a villa is recategorized to more accurately reflect changing room views or when changing demand for Vacation Homes results in those travel dates moving to a different travel season. However, rest assured that each increase on the Vacation Points Chart is offset by a corresponding decrease elsewhere on the Chart. For example, the increases in weekend Vacation Points were primarily balanced by decreases in weekday Vacation Points."

I responded with the following:
"Unfortunately, your response fails to address my question. As far as I am aware, the total point allocation for a year for a resort, in this case the Villas at the Grand Floridian, cannot change from year-to-year. This does not appear to be the case as 21 one week stays across the various units have increased while only seven have decreased. I would like to be provided with the point allocation totals for this resort to either confirm my suspicion that the point change violates the terms of our contracts, or abides by the rules. Possibly member accounting will need to be consulted."

Unless they can show me that the point change was legitimate, I will have to file a complaint with the Timeshare Bureau.

I doubt they'll send you the info but they might. If it's important, make an appt to meed with them in person. I'm sure they'll show you more specifics that way. The number of weeks isn't the issue, the total number of points is. It sounds like they also adjusted some unit to a different view type.

Tjkraz has done this calculation in this post: https://www.disboards.com/threads/2020-point-charts.3725229/page-9#post-60056403
When considering all 2BR lockoffs booked as 2BR, the 2019 and 2020 charts are within 260 points of each other. This satisfies the legal requirements.
But when considering all lockoffs booked as studio+1BR 2020 chart has 2.87% more points than 2019.
Given that studios at VGF are a very hot commodity, I think 90% of lockoff are booked as studio+1BR. In 2020 members will have to use about 2.5% more points to book the resort. It seems unfair to me.

For timeshares legal/within the rules=fair and vice versa.

 

[Dean]

You have always said an increase of studios and a decrease of 1BR was coming. You never predicted and increase of studios AND 1BR. Not so reasonable, it seems.

I have always said changes are inevitable the specific changes are more difficult to predict. Regardless some went up and some went down and in many cases, the % increase in studios was more than 1 BR. We'll see what the next change is likely in 5-7 years.

ETA: I'm not sure I predicted they would make that change though maybe I did at some point. I dis say that I think they should. Still this change might accomplish the same goal in evening out demand across the unit types.

 

[BillPA]

Do other points based timeshares constantly change the points like DVC has been doing in the last 8-10 years? Or is it just DVC?
I think they are sticking it to us, I would like to have the same point structure that I purchased. Time to move on, good luck to all you new members, be sure to buy 15-25% more than you need to cover the future allocation adjustments.

 

[DougEMG]

Regardless, I'm personally comfortable that the changes are not only within the legal allowances, but reasonable to reasonable people if they had all the specifics.

While I agree that the changes made were "legal", I disagree about the changes being reasonable to reasonable people.

The general consensus among DVC members was that studios booked first, 1 bedrooms booked last and that the Sept-Dec time period was peak season for demand. We have many individual owners observations plus hard numbers from those wonderful availability charts to back that up. A change that members could have easily accepted is studios increasing, 1 bedrooms decreasing and some adjustments made to the seasons. That didn't happen.

This is actually the first time since owning that I don't trust what Disney is doing and feel that they are making this change purely to benefit themselves!

 

[bwvBound]

Do other points based timeshares constantly change the points like DVC has been doing in the last 8-10 years? Or is it just DVC?
I think they are sticking it to us, I would like to have the same point structure that I purchased. Time to move on, good luck to all you new members, be sure to buy 15-25% more than you need to cover the future allocation adjustments.

We've owned Worldmark the Club for almost 19 years. While they haven't done serious re-allocation of existing property charts ... their newer properties have come in at much higher point values per night/week. Many have questioned the impact of the higher-point locations devaluing the "buying power" of former owners by adding so many new owners to the system, and with them, great competition for the legacy properties and their lower point requirements (per night/week).

Note: Worldmark does not use a home-resort; all resorts are lumped into a single HOA and are equally available to any owner (new, old, large account balance or small, etc.).

I feel some painful gritting of the teeth in your final comments, Bill. I wish you well as you digest these changes, the dues impact, recent stock market behaviors, etc. and deliberate your choices going forward.

 

[BillPA]

We have been members for coming on 26 years, and really don't like the changes that have come along lately. It's like they don't really care about us early members, without us, DVC would have never existed. When we joined timeshare was like a curse word, that only a fool would buy into. We gave Disney a chance and have been very happy for many years. Times they are a changing....

 

[DVC92]

Tjkraz has done this calculation in this post: https://www.disboards.com/threads/2020-point-charts.3725229/page-9#post-60056403
When considering all 2BR lockoffs booked as 2BR, the 2019 and 2020 charts are within 260 points of each other. This satisfies the legal requirements.
But when considering all lockoffs booked as studio+1BR 2020 chart has 2.87% more points than 2019.
Given that studios at VGF are a very hot commodity, I think 90% of lockoff are booked as studio+1BR. In 2020 members will have to use about 2.5% more points to book the resort. It seems unfair to me.

I did a rough calculation and found thousands of points difference. That is why I have asked DVC to show me the numbers.

 

[DVC92]

I just received the following response from DVC:

"The total point allocation changes for Disney Vacation Club Resorts cannot exceed 20 percent for any date, villa category, size or view from one year to the next.

Each Disney Vacation Club Resort has a set, total number of Vacation Points assigned to it that we can sell and that can be used for booking accommodations. In compliance with timeshare regulations, the total number cannot change except for normal variations which occur occasionally, such as in a leap year – or when accommodations are added to a Disney Vacation Club Resort. The reallocation of Vacation Points cannot be a reason for an increase in this total number of Vacation Points.

I am unable to provide an allocation total for each Disney Vacation Club Resort, as that information is proprietary. I apologize for any disappointment this may cause."

I cannot understand how this information can be proprietary and not available for member review.

 

[deerh]

We have been members for coming on 26 years, and really don't like the changes that have come along lately. It's like they don't really care about us early members, without us, DVC would have never existed. When we joined timeshare was like a curse word, that only a fool would buy into. We gave Disney a chance and have been very happy for many years. Times they are a changing....

We have been members for 19 years. I agree-Times are a changing. I do not like the changes they have implemented in the point structure for 2020 and beyond. But, for a difference of 10-14 points/week or less, it is a change I can deal with. It is NOT the end of the world for us and WDW. We may stay one night at Swan/Dolphin or Pop to compensate for the "maybe" 1 less night to save those few points. Not a big deal to us. I will still enjoy the $4000-$9000 we save every year by using our points. But, as pointed out in many posts, I don't like the direction that DVC is going now.... Just my .02..

 

[MrInfinity]

A change that members could have easily accepted is studios increasing, 1 bedrooms decreasing and some adjustments made to the seasons. That didn't happen.
This is actually the first time since owning that I don't trust what Disney is doing and feel that they are making this change purely to benefit themselves!

Although it would be wonderful, I've never thought a goal of a reallocation is to make things better or cheaper for the consumer. The goal is always (within the legal limitations) to as much as possible tweak profit up, maximize utilization or induce wasted points. That's timeshare 101... If they wanted to make things easier they could level out the seasons and match the rooms to demand but it doesn't happen that way. It is an interesting option to base the point totals on the 2Bs but retain the option to raise the point requirements for Studios and 1Bs. The people who create these systems are ingenious.

 

[Dean]

While I agree that the changes made were "legal", I disagree about the changes being reasonable to reasonable people.

The general consensus among DVC members was that studios booked first, 1 bedrooms booked last and that the Sept-Dec time period was peak season for demand. We have many individual owners observations plus hard numbers from those wonderful availability charts to back that up. A change that members could have easily accepted is studios increasing, 1 bedrooms decreasing and some adjustments made to the seasons. That didn't happen.

This is actually the first time since owning that I don't trust what Disney is doing and feel that they are making this change purely to benefit themselves!

Go back and reread the post you quoted. We don't have all the info required to evaluate the process completely. And we don't know how much of the change was related to booking patterns and how much aimed at altering patterns toward the 2 BR and away from the smaller units.

I did a rough calculation and found thousands of points difference. That is why I have asked DVC to show me the numbers.

Did you compare to the "standard year". Did you assume the current break down of view types or did you check if there were changes there?

I just received the following response from DVC:

"The total point allocation changes for Disney Vacation Club Resorts cannot exceed 20 percent for any date, villa category, size or view from one year to the next.

Each Disney Vacation Club Resort has a set, total number of Vacation Points assigned to it that we can sell and that can be used for booking accommodations. In compliance with timeshare regulations, the total number cannot change except for normal variations which occur occasionally, such as in a leap year – or when accommodations are added to a Disney Vacation Club Resort. The reallocation of Vacation Points cannot be a reason for an increase in this total number of Vacation Points.

I am unable to provide an allocation total for each Disney Vacation Club Resort, as that information is proprietary. I apologize for any disappointment this may cause."

I cannot understand how this information can be proprietary and not available for member review.

I'm not surprised, I seem to recall this was the response previously. That's why I suggested that someone that really wanted answers would need to make an appt and sit down with them. Even then they likely won't share request and occupancy numbers but they should share the gross numbers on the reallocation.

 

[Dean]

Do other points based timeshares constantly change the points like DVC has been doing in the last 8-10 years? Or is it just DVC?
I think they are sticking it to us, I would like to have the same point structure that I purchased. Time to move on, good luck to all you new members, be sure to buy 15-25% more than you need to cover the future allocation adjustments.

Most don't but most don't have the setup that DVC does. And most have set seasons.

 

[Madame]

Go back and reread the post you quoted. We don't have all the info required to evaluate the process completely. And we don't know how much of the change was related to booking patterns and how much aimed at altering patterns toward the 2 BR and away from the smaller units.

Did you compare to the "standard year". Did you assume the current break down of view types or did you check if there were changes there?

I'm not surprised, I seem to recall this was the response previously. That's why I suggested that someone that really wanted answers would need to make an appt and sit down with them. Even then they likely won't share request and occupancy numbers but they should share the gross numbers on the reallocation.

Sure Dean, but come now. Even you must admit something seems to be afoot with the 1bd reallocation. There’s simply no way to explain an almost across the board hike in 1bds (sometimes substantial) when they are always the last to book.

We have skier Pete’s wonderful thread & more anecdotal evidence than you can shake a stick at. How in the world does this serve the membership?

 

[Dean]

Sure Dean, but come now. Even you must admit something seems to be afoot with the 1bd reallocation. There’s simply no way to explain an almost across the board hike in 1bds (sometimes substantial) when they are always the last to book.

We have skier Pete’s wonderful thread & more anecdotal evidence than you can shake a stick at. How in the world does this serve the membership?

I'll admit it seems weird which is why I wondered if they were trying to drive people to larger units and whether we might actually see a minimum LOS of some type. It could serve by reducing fees if that's the reason. I haven't gone through in depth as much as some here, largely because it doesn't matter as this thread illustrates. Hopefully more info will come out.

 

[Wakey]

Can just one person explain to me the logic why at nearly every time , both weekend and in the week, all studios and all 1 beds at SSR (which I have been studying) have gone up?
Everyone knows one beds go last.
Have they sat down with data guys who have worked out how to make the most number of people be short of points, and made adjustments based on that, in the hope people will buy more? Is it because the points per night for the most booked rooms are going to be so high at Riviera that they have to bring the others up to sell it? Sceptical speculation of course, but experienced owners are scratching their heads at this.
In some seasons in the week there is now just 4 points between one and two beds.
It’s disgusting that the condo association management co, supposedly running this for the members, is not prepared to say how many points there are and give a precise breakdown of how the points have shifted and disclose the data if necessary.
Is there no regulatory body someone can complain to ?
Like others have said, for me with this new management, the trust is going. This wasn’t even mentioned last week at the member’s meeting- this very important change which they knew about was deliberately kept quiet.

 

[Orsino]

Wait a second. Who gets the money from a 'breakage' rental? I was under the impression that the money went to the DVC resort to offset Membership Dues. Is that not the case? Is Disney pocketing the money? Where the money goes is an important distinction.

 

[zavandor]

Wait a second. Who gets the money from a 'breakage' rental? I was under the impression that the money went to the DVC resort to offset Membership Dues. Is that not the case? Is Disney pocketing the money? Where the money goes is an important distinction.

It goes to offset dues but there is a cap. The cap has been reached every year for every resort as far as I know. This means that the extra breakage generated by this reallocation goes all into Disney's pockets.

 

[Orsino]

It goes to offset dues but there is a cap. The cap has been reached every year for every resort as far as I know. This means that the extra breakage generated by this reallocation goes all into Disney's pockets.

Then I think that is pretty good evidence that the reallocation is not in the best interest of the membership. Hopefully provable too. Release the lawyers.