2020 Point Charts

[Dean]

I must have misunderstood, please tell me where I'm wrong.

Let's say in 2019 a studio is 10 points, a 1BR is 20 points, a 2BR is 28 points.
In 2020 a studio is 11 points, a 1BR is 22 points, a 2BR is still 28 points.

If I understand what is being said, this is legal because the resort is all lock-off and the charts are balanced around 2BR.

But why stop there? Year after year Disney could continue to increase the cost of studios and 1BR.
In 2030 we could have a studio for 28 points, a 1BR for 28 points, a 2BR for 28 points.
Is this still legal? I dont' care if Disney would do it or not, would it be legal?
If it's not, where is the limit? When Disney decides so? Or when members are fed up and decide to take action?

To be completely clear: I wouldn't be happy but I think it would be within reason to increase studios and decrease 1BR. That would help to balance demand and overall someone would gain, someone would loose. I even bought a bit extra points to protect myself from reallocations, it has been discussed for years that one like that could happen.
But increase both studios and 1BR while keeping 2BR balanced with the rest of the resort is not fair. Most people will loose.

Actually I think it might be for a resort that doesn't have dedicated smaller units. Any dedicated units would throw a monkey wrench into the issue. I don't recall anything in the POS that would prevent it.

 

[Bing Showei]

How this could work for "Point Renters"....

New class: Shared accommodations.

A 2BR contains 2 bathrooms, one shared space, and two separate bedrooms. Buy it - rent HALF.
2020 charts indicate a solid profit, in doing this, if there are people willing to BUY this.

Brilliant. Nothing makes me sleep more soundly than saving a few dollars and providing strangers with keyed access to my family’s personal space.

 

[Dean]

Brilliant. Nothing makes me sleep more soundly than saving a few dollars and providing strangers with keyed access to my family’s personal space.

Sometimes safer and less stress than some's family's.

 

[Bing Showei]

Sometimes safer and less stress than some's family's.

That’s fair. You can pick your subletters...

 

[Dean]

That’s fair. You can pick your subletters...

To be honest, we're very lucky. We'll have roughly 50 people (mostly family) in HH this coming summer. But I've seen far too many horror stories related to family, vacations and Disney not to acknowledge it.

 

[deerh]

I don't understand the reasoning either. We own at BWV and CCV. Looking at CCV--For a family of 8- A 1BR and a studio is x points. A 2BR for 8 is (based on new 2020 point chart) 10-13 points LESS for a 2BR than booking a studio/1BR. Looking at BWV, the EXACT opposite is in play. In October, it is 1-2 points CHEAPER (in points) to book a 2BR than a 1BR/Studio. In pretty much ALL seasons!!! So, for a family of 8, it would cost 1-2 points LESS to book a 2BR than a 1BR/studio. At CCV, it would be 10-13 points LESS to book a 2BR than a 1BR/studio. WHY the BIG Difference?

 

[SL6827]

Brilliant. Nothing makes me sleep more soundly than saving a few dollars and providing strangers with keyed access to my family’s personal space.

No way in, well you know would I be in a 2 bedroom unit with strangers. Holy crap!

 

[tjkraz]

Same methodology as prior post (link), Grand Floridian balances to within 260 points between the two charts.

Factoring in the lockoffs, the disparity between Studio+1B and 2B rates collectively rose by 2.87%.

 

[zavandor]

Saratoga Springs is another matter. SSR has no dedicated Studio or 1B villas, so it seems as if those rates could be set at any reasonable level of DVC's choosing. Nevertheless, this gap between Studio+1b and Lockoff 2B pricing rose by 3.54% from 2019 to 2020. The collective cost of booking all of the lockoffs separately rose from 14.994 million points in 2019 to 15.526 million in 2020.

I'm getting more and more upset about this. We're talking about potentially 534000 more points. The increase per night is 1-2 points. Let's say roughly the average increase per night is 1,5 points and that 66% of lockoffs (it's probably more) are booked as studios, we're talking about 237000 nights affected by the change per year. If the average stay is 4 nights (I know, random number), we're talking about nearly 6000 owners affected negatively every year without any balance. Only at SSR. Add the other resorts and we're talking about tens of thousands of owners affected by the change not balanced by a decrease in other rooms.
I have sent an email to MS asking for a clarification.

 

[Dean]

I'm getting more and more upset about this. We're talking about potentially 534000 more points. The increase per night is 1-2 points. Let's say roughly the average increase per night is 1,5 points and that 66% of lockoffs (it's probably more) are booked as studios, we're talking about 237000 nights affected by the change per year. If the average stay is 4 nights (I know, random number), we're talking about nearly 6000 owners affected negatively every year without any balance. Only at SSR. Add the other resorts and we're talking about tens of thousands of owners affected by the change not balanced by a decrease in other rooms.
I have sent an email to MS asking for a clarification.

I wonder if there are other motives like to encourage 2 BR over smaller components for other reasons such as decreasing parking, housekeeping and clerical time by having less check in units. If so, it brings the issue of a minimum stay to the table. Let us know what response you get from them.

 

[Wakey]

Brilliant. Nothing makes me sleep more soundly than saving a few dollars and providing strangers with keyed access to my family’s personal space.

DVC staff at any time enter your room. I'd have no issue with some people I'd vetted being in a studio with the lockoff door locked and their agreement they wouldn't enter the 1 bed. You'd save a lot of money if you rented that studio out at $12 a point.

 

[zavandor]

I wonder if there are other motives like to encourage 2 BR over smaller components for other reasons such as decreasing parking, housekeeping and clerical time by having less check in units. If so, it brings the issue of a minimum stay to the table. Let us know what response you get from them.

I bet already know what they'll answer : they'll thank me for my feedback and repeat what's written under the new points charts on the website (it has been done to rebalance demand across all seasons), not replying to the real question about the extra lockoff points. More interesting will be what they do after I'll ask to respond to the real question. They'll probably ignore me.

 

[Bing Showei]

DVC staff at any time enter your room. I'd have no issue with some people I'd vetted being in a studio with the lockoff door locked and their agreement they wouldn't enter the 1 bed. You'd save a lot of money if you rented that studio out at $12 a point.

Are you really going to do the kind of background checks the Mouse employs? Not a fan CMs poking around my room, but I imagine Disney puts in place some safeguards to protect their liability. What sort of “vetting” do you imagine doing? Will your vetting costs and effort really get defrayed by the rental fee?

It’s not as easy as just renting your points anymore, yet you’re proposing to charge less than you would simply renting out your points. In no way do members come out on top of this.

And on that subject, we all need to let go of the idea that DVCMC has some fiduciary responsibility to balance out points for the benefit of the membership (like address DVC-specific demand or relieve any sort of booking pressures). This latest move is a stark reminder that Disney looks out for Disney.

 

[CarolynFH]

I wonder if there are other motives like to encourage 2 BR over smaller components for other reasons such as decreasing parking, housekeeping and clerical time by having less check in units. If so, it brings the issue of a minimum stay to the table. Let us know what response you get from them.

I think you’re right, @Dean. After all the years of reading about families squeezing five into a studio (we bought 2-bedroom points because we were done with having four of us in a hotel room), I’m now reading in this and other threads the occasional post about moving up from a studio or 1-bedroom to a 2-bedroom.

 

[tjkraz]

I wonder if there are other motives like to encourage 2 BR over smaller components for other reasons such as decreasing parking, housekeeping and clerical time by having less check in units. If so, it brings the issue of a minimum stay to the table. Let us know what response you get from them.

Perhaps. I also wonder where acceleration of the refurb schedule factors into the grand scheme of things. Nearly 10% of OKW has been closed since fall 2017. In 2019 and 2020, same will happen with Saratoga Springs. In 2021, Hilton Head, Boulder Ridge and Grand Floridian are all slated for refurbishment. The original refurb schedule called for room updates at 12 & 25 years. Now it's 7 & 14 years. Wouldn't something have to be done to engineer the capacity for all that added downtime?

At resorts with Dedicated Studio or 1B rooms, the phenomenon we're seeing is probably unavoidable. Those dedicated rooms are included in calculation of the charts. Adjustments made to balance the dedicated rooms are going to trickle down to the lockoffs as well.

Saratoga Springs, Old Key West, Bay Lake and Grand Floridian have no dedicated Studio or One Bedroom villas, though. They would not be bound by the same restriction. Perhaps DVC felt it was important to maintain some consistency in room pricing from resort-to-resort, especially since points can be used to book any location at 7 months.

 

[SL6827]

I wonder if there are other motives like to encourage 2 BR over smaller components for other reasons such as decreasing parking, housekeeping and clerical time by having less check in units. If so, it brings the issue of a minimum stay to the table. Let us know what response you get from them.

I have ask about the minimum stay issue before, actually mentioned it yesterday on the Resorts board. I know nothing is ever impossible, but I have been told numerous times that Disney most likely could not do that. But, like I said about nothing is ever impossible with the mouse.

 

[wdrl]

I have ask about the minimum stay issue before, actually mentioned it yesterday on the Resorts board. I know nothing is ever impossible, but I have been told numerous times that Disney most likely could not do that. But, like I said about nothing is ever impossible with the mouse.

The master declarations for all DVC resorts contain language that states that DVC can establish a minimum stay. In the Home Resort Rules and Regulations, Section III, number 4, it states:

Minimum Stay. The current minimum stay at any DVC Resort is one (1) Use Day. However, DVC Operator may require, from time to time, that a minimum number of consecutive Use Days for a particular season or special season be reserved. The number of consecutive Use Days required to be reserved shall in no event exceed five (5) Use Days.​

DVC has the authority to impose minimum stays, but it has chosen not to do so.

 

[Dean]

I have ask about the minimum stay issue before, actually mentioned it yesterday on the Resorts board. I know nothing is ever impossible, but I have been told numerous times that Disney most likely could not do that. But, like I said about nothing is ever impossible with the mouse.

As noted it is possible and expressly allowed under the guidelines of the POS. I wonder if you were asking the wrong people or asking the question in a different way. It clearly fits into one one possible motive, to minimize admin, clerical and resort FTE's. There are ways to do so without a hard requirement like having a delay before you can book the shorter stays and only allowing the longer ones initially.

 

[DVC92]

I contacted DVC regarding the point change to VGF and received the following response:
"Thank you for contacting Disney Vacation Club regarding our 2020 Vacation Points Charts.

I have reviewed your message below and appreciate your feedback regarding these periodic adjustments.

I apologize for any disappointment the adjustment in points may have caused to you and your family.

Every year, Disney Vacation Club Leadership reviews Member vacation patterns to ensure our Vacation Points Charts reflect the ever-changing interests of our Members. These adjustments consider many factors, including travel season, room view allocations, villa size, Resort demand and, most importantly, the feedback we receive from our Member community. Our goal is to ensure our Members have the opportunity to use and enjoy Vacation Homes at all times of the year.

As you mentioned, several adjustments have occurred to the 2020 Vacation Points Charts at Walt Disney World Resort. These changes occur in a variety of circumstances, including when a villa is recategorized to more accurately reflect changing room views or when changing demand for Vacation Homes results in those travel dates moving to a different travel season. However, rest assured that each increase on the Vacation Points Chart is offset by a corresponding decrease elsewhere on the Chart. For example, the increases in weekend Vacation Points were primarily balanced by decreases in weekday Vacation Points."

I responded with the following:
"Unfortunately, your response fails to address my question. As far as I am aware, the total point allocation for a year for a resort, in this case the Villas at the Grand Floridian, cannot change from year-to-year. This does not appear to be the case as 21 one week stays across the various units have increased while only seven have decreased. I would like to be provided with the point allocation totals for this resort to either confirm my suspicion that the point change violates the terms of our contracts, or abides by the rules. Possibly member accounting will need to be consulted."

Unless they can show me that the point change was legitimate, I will have to file a complaint with the Timeshare Bureau.

 

[Dean]

I bet already know what they'll answer : they'll thank me for my feedback and repeat what's written under the new points charts on the website (it has been done to rebalance demand across all seasons), not replying to the real question about the extra lockoff points. More interesting will be what they do after I'll ask to respond to the real question. They'll probably ignore me.

If you asked specifically about this question, I suspect they'll answer it directly. If you didn't ask specifically, they likely won't. I suspect there is some movement of view types included in the changes at some of the resorts. Regardless, I'm personally comfortable that the changes are not only within the legal allowances, but reasonable to reasonable people if they had all the specifics. I'm not worried about the snarling and gnashing of teeth for the effect of the changes on an individual situation. That's not to say I'm not sympathetic to those affected adversely but that this is not only something that could be anticipated (in general terms) but is actually required by the POS if needed. Basically one took that risk by joining whether they knew it or not, they either knew or should have known. I remember similar discussions with the previous large changes when certain studios went up, esp at SSR, a particular poster comes to mind.