13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[JanaDee]

Great, we get to relive the Terri Schiavo case all over again complete with unrealistic parents and the courts setting deadlines and then re-setting them over and over again. I wonder when congress will get involved.

It it's sad to see this stuff drag on. Let her die, it is the only possible eventual outcome anyway. No need to drag it out.

She is dead.

 

[mom2rtk]

Great, we get to relive the Terri Schiavo case all over again complete with unrealistic parents and the courts setting deadlines and then re-setting them over and over again. I wonder when congress will get involved.

It it's sad to see this stuff drag on. Let her die, it is the only possible eventual outcome anyway. No need to drag it out.

I didn't follow that case very closely. Had Terri Schiavo been declared brain dead?

 

[FireDancer]

She is dead.

I know, I should have said let her go. As for the Schaivo comparison, I'm not talking about from a medical perspective. I'm talking from a legal perspective. The fighting, the parents wanting to keep her connected to machines, claiming she is responding to things that are medically impossible, going to the courts who make a ruling or set a deadline and then reverse or expand it.

It is the same type of cluster and I got to see first hand because I lived very close to where the Schaivo debacle was happening in 2003-2005.

I didn't follow that case very closely. Had Terri Schiavo been declared brain dead?

She was diagnosed as in a persistent vegetative state. I don't remember if it was ever changed to a permanent vegetative state.

 

[sookie]

I didn't follow that case very closely. Had Terri Schiavo been declared brain dead?

No - she was in a vegetative state. Her husband contended that she would not have wanted to live in that state and therefore wanted all life prolonging measures (such as her feeding tube) removed.

This girl is brain dead. Not in a vegetative state. Brain dead. No activity. Gone.

 

[CF'er]

Which is not brain dead. It's comatose. Terri Schiavo was about having her feeding tube/hydration and nutrition stopped. She was not on a ventilator. I suspect that once the vent is taken off she will pass quickly. At least I hope so, maybe that will finally convince the parents she was truly gone this whole time. The longer she lingers after the more it will "prove" to them she is still alive.

 

[sookie]

I know people are saying keeping her on the ventilator is sick and abuse of corpse and that she won't last another week but I'm confused. Isn't there a brain dead woman being kept on a ventilator in Texas? Anyone know what I'm talking about? I don't know her name but I remember reading about a pregnant woman in Texas that had been declared brain dead. Her family wants the ventilator removed but the law won't allow it because she is pregnant.

Are they a different kind of brain dead or are people just making stuff up about her body starting to break down on the ventilator? In the Texas situation they (the hospital) are keeping her on it at least a few more weeks to see if there was any damage to the fetus. If they think it's OK physically (I guess they will have no idea about mental damage) they will keep the woman on it basically as an incubator.

As long as the Texas woman's body holds up - they are going to use her as an incubator. They are holding out for at least 22-24 weeks. Who knows if the baby suffered from a lack of oxygen during the time the mom wasn't breathing or being ventilated. The hospital says that they will know more - after the age of viability (22-24 weeks minimum). It is really sad. But that mom could honestly crash at any time. Under Texas law the hospital cannot remove her from life support or withhold any life sustaining measures because she is pregnant. So they will do whatever they can to keep her heart beating and air going in and out of her lungs because of her pregnancy. It doesn't mean that she won't die at any given time between now and then...

 

[tennvalgirl]

I believe the woman in Texas is being kept alive because of a personhood law. If the remove her from life support they are killing her baby.

 

[sookie]

I know, I should have said let her go. As for the Schaivo comparison, I'm not talking about from a medical perspective. I'm talking from a legal perspective. The fighting, the parents wanting to keep her connected to machines, claiming she is responding to things that are medically impossible, going to the courts who make a ruling or set a deadline and then reverse or expand it.

It is the same type of cluster and I got to see first hand because I lived very close to where the Schaivo debacle was happening in 2003-2005.

She was diagnosed as in a persistent vegetative state. I don't remember if it was ever changed to a permanent vegetative state.

A vegetative state and brain death are two totally different things. Terri was supported only by a feeding tube before her death. Let us compare apples to apples.

 

[luvsJack]

I can not imagine what the parents are going through. This is a very sad situation all around.

I read several articles about this sweet girl and what the parents have said is going on with her. They stated that she moves when the mother talks and some times breaths on her own.

Since they stated the above things .... it makes me wonder if they are thinking about the girl that was claimed brain dead in July and wasn't. This girl moved when touched and breathed on her own at times; however, the doctors didn't listen to the nurses and still declared the girl brain dead. Anyway, I don't know the entire story of the girl, but she woke up right before she was about to have her organs harvested out of her.

Wait, so this 13 year old moves when her mother speaks to her and breathes on her own at times?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I wonder if the judge knows more medically than he's letting on. If those medical people here (I trust everyone is on the up and up) that eventually her organs will cease, is the judge betting that the family will see and perhaps eventually understand the death?

Otherwise, they will just continue to blame the hospital.

From what I read tonight, the family's lawyer made multiple desperate appeals to several different courts, including at the federal level. He argued something like the "Brain Death Act" (ETA aka as the Uniform Determination of Death Act) is "depriving them of their religious freedom" and beliefs of "right to life". (Paraphrasing; not sure I can find the article again, but if I come across it again I'll post link here.) So it was a legal ploy to buy time.

ETA found it:

There is broad medical and legal consensus that whole brain death constitutes one of two legal definitions of death. A Harvard Medical School committee first put forth the standard in 1968 and in 1981 a presidential council proposed a uniform statute to be adopted nationwide.

It was endorsed by the American Medical Assn., the American Bar Assn., and the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws, which published it as the Uniform Determination of Death Act. California has such a statute. Another presidential council that took up the issue in 2008 reaffirmed that whole brain death is legal death.

However, in their petition for an emergency stay in the state Court of Appeal, the mother and guardian of Jahi McMath contend that the act, as codified in state law, violates her freedom of religion and privacy under the California Constitution.

Singer said the hospital disagrees with that as well as with a separate assertion that Jahi McMath has a "right to life" under federal law.

"The hospital continues to give its deepest condolences to the family and we hope they can come to terms with the death of Jahi McMath," he said.

The family maintains that Jahi is not dead and that she moved her leg and other parts of her body recently.

"I'm so relieved," her great-aunt Monicia Spears, 51, of Hercules said of the extended restraining order outside the hospital Monday evening. "If she is dead, why is her heart beating. Why is her body moving?"

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-20131230,0,3497539.story#ixzz2p1eXZ0x6

 

[hereyago]

Marlise Munoz is the Texas case.

I am sure she has got be getting some nutrients for the fetus to keep growing.

Jahi's mom said in a interview that she wished the hospital would give her some nutrients to help her "heal", so there are 2 different cases with respect to "care".

Sam Singer, the hospital spokesman said that the hospital had filed an opposition to today's event in court and that they also filed 2 more oppositions in 2 other courts that the family lawyer has filed against them.

 

[zurgswife]

Wait, so this 13 year old moves when her mother speaks to her and breathes on her own at times?

If she is on a mechanical ventilator she isn't breathing on her own. The machine breaths for her and this is the information I read. Also, people who are brain dead I would assume have involuntary movements that could be interpreted as a response by the family. I've seen similar things happen to patients of mine that weren't brain dead officially but probably pretty close and the family chooses to see what the want in any given reaction by the patient.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Wait, so this 13 year old moves when her mother speaks to her and breathes on her own at times?

Doctors have called her movements the "Lazarus Effect". Trying to find a good link that explains it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_sign

 

[luvsJack]

If she is on a mechanical ventilator she isn't breathing on her own. The machine breaths for her and this is the information I read. Also, people who are brain dead I would assume have involuntary movements that could be interpreted as a response by the family. I've seen similar things happen to patients of mine that weren't brain dead officially but probably pretty close and the family chooses to see what the want in any given reaction by the patient.

Its very hard for a family to see their loved one breathing (even if by ventilator) and know they are dead. When my brother died, they knew there was nothing they could do. His brain stem was still functioning at first and they asked if we wanted them to do anything further when he stopped breathing. (He was on a ventilator in the ER and died after moving him to the ICU.) We told them no. That was almost 16 years ago. Every so often my mother will still ask if we did the right thing. He just looked as though he was sleeping.

I completely understand how the family can continue to deny her death and continue holding out on turning off the ventilator. You just don't want to give up. My brother never moved so if this child moves at all, I can certainly see where their hope is coming from especially if it seems to be in direct relation to her mother's voice.

My prayers are for the family to find strength and closure in this horrible tragedy.

 

[LisaR]

This is exactly what I have been questioning about people saying her organs were essentially shut down. If they can keep the woman in TX "alive" long enough to check the viability of the fetus, how is the 13 y.o. going to essentially start decomposing (not trying to sound unsympathetic.... I'm genuinely curious)

If I understand correctly, and I may not, the woman in TX is not brain dead. She is unconscious and on life support. She has a vent and feeding tubes keeping her alive. If she wasn't pregnant, they would remove life support since those were her wishes and she would likely die. This 13 y/o girl is unfortunately already brain dead.

Edit: Nevermind! I am wrong and she has been declared brain dead. Now I am just as curious as you are, thedonduck.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This is a good article:

Clock ticks in Jahi McMath case; experts say court clash went too far

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...d-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#ixzz2p1LwJtVi

And another:

When 'life support' is really 'death support'

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health/life-support-ethics/index.html

 

[sunshinehighway]

If I understand correctly, and I may not, the woman in TX is not brain dead. She is unconscious and on life support. She has a vent and feeding tubes keeping her alive. If she wasn't pregnant, they would remove life support since those were her wishes and she would likely die. This 13 y/o girl is unfortunately already brain dead.

The Texas woman was declared brain dead. She was 14 weeks pregnant when it happened at the end of November.

 

[LisaR]

The Texas woman was declared brain dead. She was 14 weeks pregnant when it happened at the end of November.

See, I said I may not know what I was talking about. Thanks for clarifying. The article I just read didn't mention anything about being brain dead so I assumed that was the difference. So if her body hasn't deteriorated and she is brain dead, why is the assumption that the 13 y/o will deteriorate so quickly? Is the difference the feeding tube?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Can a body on a vent last that long?

It is tenuous, at best.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Wait, so this 13 year old moves when her mother speaks to her and breathes on her own at times?

THis is what the family has stated.

Its very hard for a family to see their loved one breathing (even if by ventilator) and know they are dead. When my brother died, they knew there was nothing they could do. His brain stem was still functioning at first and they asked if we wanted them to do anything further when he stopped breathing. (He was on a ventilator in the ER and died after moving him to the ICU.) We told them no. That was almost 16 years ago. Every so often my mother will still ask if we did the right thing. He just looked as though he was sleeping.

I completely understand how the family can continue to deny her death and continue holding out on turning off the ventilator. You just don't want to give up. My brother never moved so if this child moves at all, I can certainly see where their hope is coming from especially if it seems to be in direct relation to her mother's voice.

My prayers are for the family to find strength and closure in this horrible tragedy.

I'm so sorry for your loss and your mothers struggle with the decision she made.