13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[LiveYourLife]

With regard to #1- I am quite certain that Jahis mother has received all kinds of help, or at least offers of all kinds of help. There are teams of people in hospitals to assist families in these situations. It's not like we say "oh your kid us brain dead we're shutting off the vent now". There are social workers, grief counselors, clergy people, palliative care people etc. who would be involved here. But none of them can make the family listen.

With regard to #2-I agree

Hi DD! Yes, I'm aware that there are social workers, grief counselors, clergy people, etc....that the Hospitals provide. I've worked with these resources before, when my Father passed, and also when my Grandmother passed. I don't think the Mother trusts or wants to deal with anyone affiliated with CHO. I wasn't clear in my original post, that someone who is not affiliated with CHO should try to help Jahi's mom. I apologize that my post wasn't clearly written to what was in my head!

 

[LiveYourLife]

I am going to have an interesting evening reading through all that.

I knew you would like that! I started last night and read until I couldn't any longer! I need to pack for my 7:30am flight eek and then I will be back to reading the docs again.

 

[LiveYourLife]

If this girl comes back from the dead, I swear I will be at church every.single.week.

So wrong, yet I did chuckle at this. I expect the skies to part and be struck by lightening at any moment for admitting to that!!!!

 

[Lanshark]

What is the medical definition of death?

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Hi DD! Yes, I'm aware that there are social workers, grief counselors, clergy people, etc....that the Hospitals provide. I've worked with these resources before, when my Father passed, and also when my Grandmother passed. I don't think the Mother trusts or wants to deal with anyone affiliated with CHO. I wasn't clear in my original post, that someone who is not affiliated with CHO should try to help Jahi's mom. I apologize that my post wasn't clearly written to what was in my head!

Truthfully, at this point, unless they tell her what she wants to hear, I don't think she'll want to deal with them either. Although I agree with you, I wish there was somebody who could get through to her.

 

[thankudrivethru]

ReneeA...I have a question about your post.

Does a brain dead person "feel" pain? Or because their brain is dead, they feel nothing?

Just curious. I think a person who is brain dead should be let go..

Not to sound heartless, but i agree. There is a difference between brain dead and brain damaged. Terry Shiavo was brain damaged,Jahi is brain dead. I totally get her family can't snap into reality and they see what they want to see. The movement that is going on is not any activity in the brain because the tests had confirmed there was no activity, what they are seeing is spinal reflexes with the nerves. When you die parts of your body twitch and move a bit, this does not mean that she is alive, they confirmed she was brain dead.

Wat is really sad is the parents have this false sense of hope.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

What is the medical definition of death?

Death: 1. The end of life. The cessation of life. (These common definitions of death ultimately depend upon the definition of life, upon which there is no consensus.) 2. The permanent cessation of all vital bodily functions. (This definition depends upon the definition of "vital bodily functions.") See: Vital bodily functions. 3. The common law standard for determining death is the cessation of all vital functions, traditionally demonstrated by "an absence of spontaneous respiratory and cardiac functions." 4. The uniform determination of death. The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." This definition was approved by the American Medical Association in 1980 and by the American Bar Association in 1981.


From the following website
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=33438

Basically irreversible cessation of the circulatory & respiratory function OR irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain

 

[bcla]

I am going to have an interesting evening reading through all that.

This was in the federal filing:

18. Plaintiffs are Christians with a firm religious beliefs that as long as the heart is beating, Jahi is alive.

That's their contention in a nutshell. Our religious beliefs trump anything else legal, medical, or scientific.

 

[Lanshark]

Death: 1. The end of life. The cessation of life. (These common definitions of death ultimately depend upon the definition of life, upon which there is no consensus.) 2. The permanent cessation of all vital bodily functions. (This definition depends upon the definition of "vital bodily functions.") See: Vital bodily functions. 3. The common law standard for determining death is the cessation of all vital functions, traditionally demonstrated by "an absence of spontaneous respiratory and cardiac functions." 4. The uniform determination of death. The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards." This definition was approved by the American Medical Association in 1980 and by the American Bar Association in 1981.


From the following website
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=33438

Basically irreversible cessation of the circulatory & respiratory function OR irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain

Thanks. Since there is irreversible cessation of all brain functions has there been a death certificate?

 

[LiveYourLife]

Thanks. Since there is irreversible cessation of all brain functions has there been a death certificate?

No, because in order for there to be a death certificate issued, her body needs to be released to the Coroner for an autopsy first.

 

[mnrose]

They're gonna say that the doctors did this to her regardless of what happens. The girls heart will give out at some point and they won't be able to keep it going. I believe the longest they've ever been able to keep a heart beating (mechanically) despite brain death was about 180 days.
If you want more info about the medical side of what's happening, check out this forum for nurses:
http://allnurses.com/nursing-news/girl-brain-dead-893941-page39.html
It'll answer more of the technical/scientific stuff that some of us are wondering about from people who work in that field. (Warning: it can get a bit graphically detailed).

Thanks for sharing this. I am not a nurse, but I found it a fascinating discussion and very professional. It took a LONG time to read, but it was worth the effort.

 

[bcla]

Thanks. Since there is irreversible cessation of all brain functions has there been a death certificate?

Apparently there's only electronic filing of death certificates in California, and only open to hospitals, funeral homes, doctors, and coroners. I would assum Children's Oakland has an account, and it wouldn't surprise me if they've filed already without the consent of the family.

I think it's possible for counties to have their own procedures for applying for a death certificate by paper, but it's up to the county to enter it through the electronic filing system.

http://www.edrs.us/accounts.jsp

Alameda County says that they will have death certificates available about 2 weeks after filing. Anyone want to shell out $23 to find out? It would be a public record in California, but the "restricted" versions are plastered with an overlay that says "INFORMATIONAL" which means it can't be used for any official purpose, such as to get death benefits or to transport a dead body.

http://www.acgov.org/auditor/clerk/death1.htm

 

[bcla]

No, because in order for there to be a death certificate issued, a body needs to be released to the Coroner for an autopsy first.

Is that necessary if there's no foul play suspected in someone's death? I'm sure most deaths don't involve an autopsy.

 

[*Fantasia*]

disregard.. nothing important.

 

[Tozzie]

No, because in order for there to be a death certificate issued, a body needs to be released to the Coroner for an autopsy first.

What? Not all people who die are autopsied, nor does the cornoner always get involved when someone dies in a hospital. I have copies of both my parents death certificates, they were signed by the doctors in the hospitals they died in and were not "released to the coroner" . In fact we had ordered copies of the death certificates through the funeral home and recieved them the day my father was buried.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

The federal court pleadings were interesting, to say the least.

Causes of action against the hospital alleging violations of Jahi's Constitutional rights. I'm no Laurence Tribe, but don't you have to have conduct by a governmental agency to have a viable claim? The hospital is a private entity. I would have thought Dolan woukd have sued that State of California, alleging that the statute defining death as including brain death is unconstitutional. That Cakufornia law and the rulings of the Califirnia state court violate Jahi's religious freedom and her right to privacy.

The alleged ADA violations by the hospital are a colorable claim. And that's what could keep this in federal court, unless the federal court defers to the state court.

 

[LAB81018]

Okay, maybe I missed this somewhere, but is the whole family moving to NY to be near her in this facility?

Has anyone involved with the family explained that plan?

Or is it as long as she is being maintained on the vent, they'll visit occasionally?

 

[lpereira]

No, because in order for there to be a death certificate issued, a body needs to be released to the Coroner for an autopsy first.

Cause of brain death second to cardiac arrest. Date of death December 12,2013. This is an unknown. Can the court issue an order declaring date if death to be different? I don't know. Cases don't usually get this far. I can think of five families in the past three weeks who accepted that their loved one-including at least one child- was dead.
An autopsy could determine the cause of the cardiac arrest.
I don't know procedure in California but in SC autopsies on all pediatrics except in the event of known terminal illness, deaths within a certain period of hospital admission except following a known terminal illness, all out of hospital deaths again except in the case of known terminal illness, and at the request of the family. I would feel comfortable saying California follows closely SC guidelines if not stricter guidelines.
On a lighter note how has this thread not gone down the tubes when I've seen pitchforks come out over GAC and FP+?

 

[*Fantasia*]

disregard... nothing important.

 

[zurgswife]

Okay, maybe I missed this somewhere, but is the whole family moving to NY to be near her in this facility?

Has anyone involved with the family explained that plan?

Or is it as long as she is being maintained on the vent, they'll visit occasionally?

1. I thought I read that the facility had been closed. Can't find any articles now.
2. They are an outpatient facility and don't have the ability to care for someone 24/7.

So, not sure how this would work.