13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[pat fan]

18. Plaintiffs are Christians with a firm religious beliefs that as long as the heart is beating, Jahi is alive.

I just don't get how they run that logic. Her heart is only beating because of the vent, if I am following correctly. Take her off and her heart stops. Her heart is not beating, it is being beaten by the ebb and flow of oxygen being pushed through it, yes? That is what I take from it. And I am a Christian, so I am not belittling their faith, just thinking that can't be used as an excuse. You have faith, but you have reality also. I feel for the family as well. My sister died when she was 10, and my mom has never quite recovered from that.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I don't think your understanding is quite right.

The vent is keeping her heart beating, in that it's keeping her breathing, and thus oxygenating her blood, but the movement of the muscles of the heart happens on their own. It's triggered by it's own natural pacemaker, not by the vent.. If the heart wasn't getting oxygen the tissue would die and thus stop beating. But the heart beats independent of the brain.

If someone's heart muscle was damaged to the point that it couldn't support life, e.g. by a massive heart attack, then attaching them to a vent wouldn't cause the heart to beat.

 

[Lynne M]

Okay, maybe I missed this somewhere, but is the whole family moving to NY to be near her in this facility?

Has anyone involved with the family explained that plan?

Or is it as long as she is being maintained on the vent, they'll visit occasionally?

She won't be going there. They have a half-remodeled house that they can't even raise the money to finish. Let alone pay for 24/7 care with ventilators, monitors, physicians, medications, and a skilled nursing staff. It's all a sham. Or scam, depending on your point of view.

 

[LilyWDW]

I don't know procedure in California but in SC autopsies on all pediatrics except in the event of known terminal illness, deaths within a certain period of hospital admission except following a known terminal illness, all out of hospital deaths again except in the case of known terminal illness, and at the request of the family. I would feel comfortable saying California follows closely SC guidelines if not stricter guidelines.
On a lighter note how has this thread not gone down the tubes when I've seen pitchforks come out over GAC and FP+?

In the very long thread from the nursing forum that was posted earlier, it seems to be the same for Cali. Pediatric cases would get an autopsy unless the death was from a known long term illness (such as cancer) or the coroner decides one is not needed. It would be very likely that this case would get an autopsy because, while we know the physical "cause of death, we don't know what brought it on.

The problem is, that some evidence as to what happened will be lost due to the family doing this. Depending on WHAT happened this could actually work against the family in any sort of malpractice. The body doesn't just stay in the same shape it was in at the time of death, even with the vent.

 

[skylizard]

Thanks for sharing this. I am not a nurse, but I found it a fascinating discussion and very professional. It took a LONG time to read, but it was worth the effort.

I'm glad you found it worth the effort. I found it quite interesting and have so much respect for those in the nursing field.
I hope the judge can bring closure tomorrow and let this little girl rest in peace.

 

[mhfrau]

I don't think your understanding is quite right.

The vent is keeping her heart beating, in that it's keeping her breathing, and thus oxygenating her blood, but the movement of the muscles of the heart happens on their own. It's triggered by it's own natural pacemaker, not by the vent.. If the heart wasn't getting oxygen the tissue would die and thus stop beating. But the heart beats independent of the brain.

If someone's heart muscle was damaged to the point that it couldn't support life, e.g. by a massive heart attack, then attaching them to a vent wouldn't cause the heart to beat.

I'm not sure you're 100% correct either. The heart muscle CANNOT beat independently without a functioning medulla oblongata unless it has oxygenated blood being pushed through it. The medulla oblongata is the lowest part of the brainstem. It is the part that controls the heartbeat, blood pressure and consciousness. It doesn't really matter how strong the heart muscle is, because without a functioning brainstem, even on a vent, it won't last indefinitely.

I admit I'm no expert, but I do happen to have a low grade brain tumor that is diffusely infiltrating through my medulla, top to bottom, ending right at my cervico-medullary junction (which is where the brainstem becomes the spinal cord). I've been battling this thing for years and years, and I can tell you that my greatest risk is literally dropping dead in an instant because of what the medulla controls.

 

[pat fan]

I don't think your understanding is quite right.

The vent is keeping her heart beating, in that it's keeping her breathing, and thus oxygenating her blood, but the movement of the muscles of the heart happens on their own. It's triggered by it's own natural pacemaker, not by the vent.. If the heart wasn't getting oxygen the tissue would die and thus stop beating. But the heart beats independent of the brain.

If someone's heart muscle was damaged to the point that it couldn't support life, e.g. by a massive heart attack, then attaching them to a vent wouldn't cause the heart to beat.

Okay. Still, without it the heart stops. I feel for them, but they need to let her go....

 

[pat fan]

I don't think your understanding is quite right.

The vent is keeping her heart beating, in that it's keeping her breathing, and thus oxygenating her blood, but the movement of the muscles of the heart happens on their own. It's triggered by it's own natural pacemaker, not by the vent.. If the heart wasn't getting oxygen the tissue would die and thus stop beating. But the heart beats independent of the brain.

If someone's heart muscle was damaged to the point that it couldn't support life, e.g. by a massive heart attack, then attaching them to a vent wouldn't cause the heart to beat.

Sorry, double post

 

[Borishack]

I don't think your understanding is quite right.

The vent is keeping her heart beating, in that it's keeping her breathing, and thus oxygenating her blood, but the movement of the muscles of the heart happens on their own. It's triggered by it's own natural pacemaker, not by the vent.. If the heart wasn't getting oxygen the tissue would die and thus stop beating. But the heart beats independent of the brain.

If someone's heart muscle was damaged to the point that it couldn't support life, e.g. by a massive heart attack, then attaching them to a vent wouldn't cause the heart to beat.

Good observations.

But breathing is also a natural reflex. And her breathing wouldn't be happening without the vent. And without that support -- as you observed -- her heart wouldn't be getting oxygen and would stop. So the fact is both her breathing and blood flow are having to be mechanically supported. And she is not in a coma, she is in an irrecoverable state of brain death.

So what we have here as I and others have observed is a corpse that is being made to appear alive but which is not.

So the family is pursuing a hopeless goal by fighting with the hospital. And in the process is pulling resources and energy away from other children at that facility that can be saved.

Which is a tragedy.

 

[Lynne M]

I'm glad you found it worth the effort. I found it quite interesting and have so much respect for those in the nursing field.
I hope the judge can bring closure tomorrow and let this little girl rest in peace.

Yes, I appreciated it too, thanks for posting it. Very interesting reading.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Good observations.

But breathing is also a natural reflex. And her breathing wouldn't be happening without the vent. And without that support -- as you observed -- her heart wouldn't be getting oxygen and would stop. So the fact it is both her breathing and blood flow have to be mechanically supported. And she is not in a coma, she is in an irrecoverable state of brain death.

So what we have here as I and others have observed is a corpse that is being made to appear alive but which is not.

So the family is pursuing a hopeless goal by fighting with the hospital. And in the process is pulling resources and energy away from other children at that facility that can be saved.

Which is a tragedy.

I don't disagree with you that it's hopeless and tragic and that the parents should let her go.

I do think it's important to understand that the reason why she is considered dead is because of the lack of brain activity, not because she needs a vent to keep her breathing and her heart beating. There are many individuals who require a ventilator to stay alive, but who are definitely alive, and responsive to their environment.

 

[Borishack]

I don't disagree with you that it's hopeless and tragic and that the parents should let her go.

I do think it's important to understand that the reason why she is considered dead is because of the lack of brain activity, not because she needs a vent to keep her breathing and her heart beating. There are many individuals who require a ventilator to stay alive, but who are definitely alive, and responsive to their environment.

And you may have underscored the confusion on this sad situation that is apparent here and in other forums where the this is being discussed. Many people don't understand the difference between being in a coma vs. being brain dead.

 

[JanaDee]

I'm glad you found it worth the effort. I found it quite interesting and have so much respect for those in the nursing field.
I hope the judge can bring closure tomorrow and let this little girl rest in peace.

I missed the last few pages of posts, so may have missed an update, but I thought the next hearing wasn't until Jan 7th?

 

[wdwmom0f3]

I admit I'm no expert, but I do happen to have a low grade brain tumor that is diffusely infiltrating through my medulla, top to bottom, ending right at my cervico-medullary junction (which is where the brainstem becomes the spinal cord). I've been battling this thing for years and years, and I can tell you that my greatest risk is literally dropping dead in an instant because of what the medulla controls.

Sending prayers your way.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

I missed the last few pages of posts, so may have missed an update, but I thought the next hearing wasn't until Jan 7th?

There are now two legal actions pending. Initially the family filed in state court. That is the matter before judge Grillo, in which the court ordered that she remain on the vent but declined to order the hospital to insert a trach and a feeding tube. Judge Gallo's order expires on the 7th, and unless the appellate court intervenes, the hospital can remove the vent at that time.

The second action was filed in federal court, seeking the same relief -- that the vent be maintained and that the tubes be inserted -- but relying on different legal theories. Federal judge refused to enter any orders, but instead referred the matter to a magistrate. The magistrate can't make any rulings, he can only maje recommendations to the judge. The magistrate is having a conference/mediation with the parties tomorrow.

From what I read it does not appear likely that the California appellate court will overturn Gallo's ruling, hence the need to seek relief in federal court.

My educated guess is that if the magistrate can't reach a resolution via negotiation with the parties tomorrow, the federal court will defer to the state court. And you will see the family ask for additional time to pyrsue the matter before the 9th Circuit and the US Supreme Court.

 

[Luv Bunnies]

Yep. Local news (San Francisco Bay Area) tonight said both parties would need to come to some agreement in front of the magistrate for anything to change. That's not likely given the fact that they haven't agreed on anything yet, and couldn't be farther apart in their views. Neither side has budged so far.

I will be quite interested to find out what actually went wrong after the surgery. Did the hospital staff make a mistake? Did the family do something or give her something that caused the bleeding (like trying to feed her too soon)? Was it just an unavoidable complication? I'm certainly not accusing anyone of doing anything. We (the public) haven't been told anything specific. I'm sure the hospital has launched its own investigation and there have been many internal conversations with every person who came into contact with Jahi and her family. Every procedure, decision and conversation has been documented in great detail by now. The hospital spokesman says Oakland Children's is anxious for an official investigation to begin. They will welcome it and cooperate fully. This story won't be over for quite a while.

 

[Disney Doll]

I'm sure they will welcome it fully because they have not been able to tell their side, and they do have a side, and have been made to look like the bad guy when perhaps they are not.

Frankly, it's not like healthcare people are monsters. Most of us really want to do good. Yes, there are bad apples in every profession, but most of us don't want to make errors which could harm a patient. And speaking personally, I have been fortunate to make only a few thankfully minor errors in 30+ years of nursing and thankfully none of them did any harm. And I felt terrible after, and I "fessed up" and did all the necessary documentation of the error and apologized to the patient and basically took full responsibility. And my employer did the same along with me.

That being said, patients and families can contribute to their own complications by not listening to instructions. I can't tell you the number of times that I walked into a room of a patient with abdominal pain who was told to eat or drink nothing only to find them eating food that a family member brought in from home because "they called and said they were hungry and you were refusing to feed them". Yes, me, the mean nurse, was refusing to feed them because I wanted them to suffer. And yes I had explained to the patient WHY they couldn't eat and yes they said they understood and yes they also truly seemed to understand based on my observations.

Again, I'm not saying that Jahis family did anything which may have started this ball rolling, such as suctioning her or feeding her too soon, but since they're the only ones allowed to speak we're only hearing their side of the story. And since they are going to paint themselves in the best light possible to gain sympathetic and financial support, I'm not willing to castigate the hospital as being negligent yet.

 

[mnrose]

On the link skylizard posted, there were scattered references to Jahi's family giving her a hamburger after surgery. Heck, they even admit to giving her a Popsicle. The nurses state that it would be most unusual (if unheard of) for it to be "proper" to have given her ANYTHING that soon after surgery.

There's enough "floating" around about this alleged hamburger that I wonder if that's not at the root of the issue. If, in fact, the family contributed to Jahi's problem by their actions, they would be under tremendous guilt right now and perhaps this contributes to their actions now.

Of course, the surgery was WAY more than "routine" tonsillectomy (as the nurse site points out), and yet the family continues to insist that it was "simple" and "routine." So, the family is not portraying things accurately at all. The hospital has something to say and they can't. It must be very infuriating to the staff there to be portrayed by the family as incompetent and uncaring, and not be able to respond.

 

[sunshinehighway]

On the link skylizard posted, there were scattered references to Jahi's family giving her a hamburger after surgery. Heck, they even admit to giving her a Popsicle. The nurses state that it would be most unusual (if unheard of) for it to be "proper" to have given her ANYTHING that soon after surgery.

There's enough "floating" around about this alleged hamburger that I wonder if that's not at the root of the issue. If, in fact, the family contributed to Jahi's problem by their actions, they would be under tremendous guilt right now and perhaps this contributes to their actions now.

Of course, the surgery was WAY more than "routine" tonsillectomy (as the nurse site points out), and yet the family continues to insist that it was "simple" and "routine." So, the family is not portraying things accurately at all. The hospital has something to say and they can't. It must be very infuriating to the staff there to be portrayed by the family as incompetent and uncaring, and not be able to respond.

Seriously? That hamburger thing was taken from the comments section of some article. I can't imagine anyone from the family would wrote such a thing and the hospital personnel wouldn't either since they know better than to talk about the case.
It's a new level of low that people are going to take some anonymous comments and use them to blame the mother for her daughter's death.

 

[mnrose]

Seriously? That hamburger thing was taken from the comments section of some article. I can't imagine anyone from the family would wrote such a thing and the hospital personnel wouldn't either since they know better than to talk about the case.
It's a new level of low that people are going to take some anonymous comments and use them to blame the mother for her daughter's death.

Two things. The hamburger thing *could* be made up.

However, the popsicle thing is NOT. And, the grandma (an LVN...NOT an RN) did, in fact, "suction" the girl. She was NOT qualified to do so.


According to the nurses, BOTH of these things were WRONG. And, another thing, she was in the ICU when this happened....it was planned BEFORE surgery that she would go to the ICU. That alone makes this an unusual case. And who would feed a child a popsicle in the ICU? Who would take it on themselves to perform medical procedures in the ICU? This family is a piece of work.

Did you read the nurses site? Nurses who actually work with these sorts of cases. And, what would be happening to this poor child's body. Egads. It is macabre. And, yet the family is carrying on as if she's alive.

I cannot imagine being the nurses assigned to care for this child's body. I'm sure they are professional, but it must be stressful beyond belief to have to carry on with the family carrying on the way they are, and KNOWING that you are going to be dragged into a lawsuit.