10 Items or.....

[cornflake]

irregardless............................... oh man that hurt to type!




OP I never thought about the difference between less and fewer. I can't wait to show up my DD 13 (she who knows it all) the next time we are at the grocery store! bwahahahaha

Hahahaha happy to help irritate a know-it-all teen. When I was discussing it with the manager who teaches part time, I mentioned WF was close to the only store that had grammatically correct signs and it was nice because if a kid didn't believe you that 'X items or less' is incorrect, because it's so ubiquitous an error, you could say 'see, Whole Foods has the signs right...'

Wait a minute....does this mean that if I have 9 items, I'm not allowed to go in any line except the express?

Heh, weirdly, the secret to that particular Whole Foods used to be that the non-express line(s) was almost always faster than the express. Now, with the extra express lines and incorrect signs, I don't know what to do, it's all disconcerting! Also, learn somethin' every day, some days, from the Dis, I suppose, heh!

 

[AndyLL]

Sorry! I should've explained, given how ubiquitous the incorrect usage is (as demonstrated by how rare '10 items or fewer' is on signage!).

'Fewer' is for things you can count, it's a measure of items; 'less' is for things you cannot, it's a measure of volume.

Also use less with a number that describes a quantity considered as a single bulk amount: The police recovered less than $1,500; It happened less than five years ago; The recipe calls for less than two cups of sugar.

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/fewer-vs-less/

If you believe the Times it seems the current usage is still correct.

 

[cornflake]

Also use less with a number that describes a quantity considered as a single bulk amount: The police recovered less than $1,500; It happened less than five years ago; The recipe calls for less than two cups of sugar.

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/fewer-vs-less/

If you believe the Times it seems the current usage is still correct.

First, that's their internal style guide, which I don't take as a general usage guide. Second, though, I don't think their guide would actually disagree - as noted by a commenter, they're differentiating between something that can be counted but is a collective and things that are counted -

But that leads to oddities like "fewer than two hours" or "fewer than $1,500". These are numbers, of course. But the point of these phrases is not to *count* the hours or dollars (where "fewer" would be correct), but to quantify the length of time or the sum of money.

The items someone is purchasing are still items that would be counted, not a singular quantity or sum. You wouldn't really ask 'how many dollars did you make?' You'd ask 'how much,' though you're expecting a specific numerical sum as a response.

You would, however, ask how many things you wish to purchase, hence there's a specific number limit on the signs. If someone asked 'how much did you buy?' Your answer would likely be a volume, not a number - 'not much' vs. '15 things.'

 

[AndyLL]

Second, though, I don't think their guide would actually disagree - as noted by a commenter, they're differentiating between something that can be counted but is a collective and things that are counted

That's the point. You don't care if you have 1, 3 or 7 items. It is that the collective is less then 10. You only care about the items in bulk for the comparision.

But the main reason they likely changed the grammer is because of the other lanes: the '11 Items or more' sign.

In this case... following your rule it has to be 'more' because there could be an infinite number of items in that line which by definition is uncountable.

The store is giving you a binary choice between the two lines.

One choice has to have 'more' for the grammer to be correct.

The other choice has to have the same grammer rule otherwise you have a logical fallacy.

Allowing logical fallacies in grocery store signs is one reason society is falling apart this days.

I, for one, applaud Whole Foods for taking a stand.

 

[cornflake]

That's the point. You don't care if you have 1, 3 or 7 items. It is that the collective is less then 10. You only care about the items in bulk for the comparision.

But the main reason they likely changed the grammer is because of the other lanes: the '11 Items or more' sign.

In this case... following your rule it has to be 'more' because there could be an infinite number of items in that line which by definition is uncountable.

The store is giving you a binary choice between the two lines.

One choice has to have 'more' for the grammer to be correct.

The other choice has to have the same grammer rule otherwise you have a logical fallacy.

Allowing logical fallacies in grocery store signs is one reason society is falling apart this days.

I, for one, applaud Whole Foods for taking a stand.

Heh. That assumes the 'rule' is that the opposite of 'more' is 'less,' but 'fewer' is the grammar equivalent of 'less' in that context.

"Did the meeting give you more options?" "No, fewer." - see?

 

[AndyLL]

Heh. That assumes the 'rule' is that the opposite of 'more' is 'less,' but 'fewer' is the grammar equivalent of 'less' in that context.

"Did the meeting give you more options?" "No, fewer." - see?

Not sure I agree. You way sounds better but we all know that proper grammer does not always sound as correct as non-proper grammer.

However I noticed you replied to my 'tongue in cheek' answer and ignored my main answer which was... you don't need to 'count' the individual items to use the < 10 item lane... you just need to know that the aggregate is < 10.

A test of this is deciding if you can approximate the count.

I can 'know' I have less then 10 items without knowing exactly how many items I have.

Since it is not a requirement that you count the items, whole food is correct in using 'less' on their sign.

 

[cornflake]

Not sure I agree. You way sounds better but we all know that proper grammer does not always sound as correct as non-proper grammer.

However I noticed you replied to my 'tongue in cheek' answer and ignored my main answer which was... you don't need to 'count' the individual items to use the < 10 item lane... you just need to know that the aggregate is < 10.

A test of this is deciding if you can approximate the count.

I can 'know' I have less then 10 items without knowing exactly how many items I have.

Since it is not a requirement that you count the items, whole food is correct in using 'less' on their sign.

Incorrect grammar only sounds right because people use it - doesn't mean it's correct. People say "She gave the gifts to Bob and I," and think it sounds fine; it's still wrong.

I'm not sure where you're getting the ability to approximate as the deciding factor - that's not what the Times style is...

 

[mpls_mm]

bat **** crazy [/I]

Be careful, I got a warning months after putting that in a post!

 

[Tara922c]

I have never in my life seen the express lane that said "10 items or few". Every large store I shop at (and they are ALL big chains), the signs say "10 items or less." I had to google what you are talking about because I didn't even know "10 items or less" was wrong. When I first saw this thread, I thought you would going to vent about the people who go in the express lane with a whole cart full of stuff. I can understand your frustration, but there are some things you just have to let go. Whole Foods is not going to spend thousands of dollars to change the signs. The whole "10 item or less" just sounds better (well to me anyway) and is more common. I wouldn't waste time and energy complaining to the store manager. (they most likely do not care and will not bring it up to higher management) If you really feel strongly about this, call corporate office.

 

[cornflake]

I have never in my life seen the express lane that said "10 items or few". Every large store I shop at (and they are ALL big chains), the signs say "10 items or less." I had to google what you are talking about because I didn't even know "10 items or less" was wrong. When I first saw this thread, I thought you would going to vent about the people who go in the express lane with a whole cart full of stuff. I can understand your frustration, but there are some things you just have to let go. Whole Foods is not going to spend thousands of dollars to change the signs. The whole "10 item or less" just sounds better (well to me anyway) and is more common. I wouldn't waste time and energy complaining to the store manager. (they most likely do not care and will not bring it up to higher management) If you really feel strongly about this, call corporate office.

The signs were correct. In every other Whole Foods store I've been in (I was just in a different one the other day) the signs say '10 (or 5) items or fewer' and 'X items or more.'

This is the only store they changed the signs in, in my area anyway, in which there are a number of Whole Foods locations, and they changed them from grammatically correct to incorrect.

The store manager I spoke to seemed to care - she knew what I was going to say before I said it. She's a teacher and said she'd noticed it and brought it up with management when she saw the signs and other customers had brought it up to her as well. I get most people don't notice or care, but it's not *just* me. It's minorly irritating that so many stores have it wrong - but what really bugged me was that WF has it right and this one store changed TO wrong. I don't know how or why that one happened, given that it was correct across the board (in every WF I've been in, in more than one state).

I have seen customers (not store workers, I don't think WF workers would say anything) chuck a person with a cart full of stuff out of the express line in the WF. The other week someone had like 20 or so items in the '5 items or fewer' line and someone got annoyed and told her she was in the express and the cart line was the other direction. She moved.

The only other place I've seen that done is my local market, where customers won't let people get in the express with carts because they know the store employees will throw them out the second they spot them - but that's the way that store works. It's nice, heh.

 

[cornflake]

It's not just my area, WF has the sings correct in other locations.

 

[Swan4Me]

That being said, stuff like this isn't even a blip on my radar.

There are certain phrases that have become acceptable. The above bolded one is one I see on the DIS all the time and its incorrect grammar . Drives me up the wall!!!

 

[KimR]

Cornflake, you must go bat **** crazy reading message boards wheres grammer ain't allways wright.

I was thinking exactly the same thing!

 

[punkin]

Not sure I agree. You way sounds better but we all know that proper grammer does not always sound as correct as non-proper grammer.

However I noticed you replied to my 'tongue in cheek' answer and ignored my main answer which was... you don't need to 'count' the individual items to use the < 10 item lane... you just need to know that the aggregate is < 10.

A test of this is deciding if you can approximate the count.

I can 'know' I have less then 10 items without knowing exactly how many items I have.

Since it is not a requirement that you count the items, whole food is correct in using 'less' on their sign.

Actually, you have FEWER THAN 10 items.

Your usage is incorrect.

 

[Jennasis]

The one that gets my knickers in a twist is using "of" instead of "have". Let me give you an example...

"I would of preferred to stay at the Poly."

It is EVERYWHERE here on the DIS and it makes me want to smash things (tongue in cheek of course).

 

[Bob NC]

Be careful out there, it's a doggy dog world.

 

[mjkacmom]

I have never in my life seen the express lane that said "10 items or few". Every large store I shop at (and they are ALL big chains), the signs say "10 items or less." I had to google what you are talking about because I didn't even know "10 items or less" was wrong. When I first saw this thread, I thought you would going to vent about the people who go in the express lane with a whole cart full of stuff. I can understand your frustration, but there are some things you just have to let go. Whole Foods is not going to spend thousands of dollars to change the signs. The whole "10 item or less" just sounds better (well to me anyway) and is more common. I wouldn't waste time and energy complaining to the store manager. (they most likely do not care and will not bring it up to higher management) If you really feel strongly about this, call corporate office.

The grocery store where I shopped changed from "less" to "fewer" a few years ago. I'm going to pay attention now when I go to some others. My dad is the grammar police - used to drive him nuts as well.

 

[punkin]

Be careful out there, it's a doggy dog world.

Ouch!

 

[lovesmurfs]

There are certain phrases that have become acceptable. The above bolded one is one I see on the DIS all the time and its incorrect grammar . Drives me up the wall!!!

You DO mean IT'S incorrect grammar?

It's = it is

its = possessive, belonging to "it."

 

[kaytieeldr]

You DO mean IT'S incorrect grammar?

It's = it is

its = possessive, belonging to "it."

No. She actually means 'its', as in the improper or incorrect grammar being used on the DIS as a whole .