What 10 hours of street harassment in NYC looks like

[goofy4tink]

The 90% of guys who are not scumbags aren't the ones doing the cat calling.

10% can be a very small number, or it can be a huge number. Depends on the total numbers. 10% of the men in NYC is a pretty hefty number.

 

[JenM]

And it only takes one incident to make someone not want to acknowledge the attention whenever it happens again.

 

[RadioNate]

I grew up in Chicago and was also the victim of many cat calls, whistles, smoochy noises and ... worst of all ... men who would follow me in a car, park ahead of me, watch me walk by (calling to me) and repeating it for blocks on end. I had to take the EL to work and men would sit down close to me on the EL and talk to me even though I was reading my book (pre iPhone days ) or would sit behind me and play with my long hair. I had to make sure that my hair was tucked in around me because guys would even touch it when sitting next to me *shudder*.

I giggled because I had a guy "petting" my hair on the CTA last week. I just looked at him & asked "are you touching my hair? Stop!" He mumbled something & moved.

So gross.

 

[RadioNate]

Of course the flip side of that is the fact that the 90% of guys who are not scumbags don't appreciate automatically being treated as such just because of the 10% possibility they MIGHT be one.

I'm sure but with a stranger, 10% of a risk of being attacked, rape, killed....is too much for me to take.

 

[snapppyd]

Methinks some gentlemen protest too much.

 

[Jeff in BigD]

An interesting issue pointed out about the video:
The Problem With That Catcalling Video

 

[JenM]

An interesting issue pointed out about the video:
The Problem With That Catcalling Video

I’ve seen that article as well. The Daily Show segment with Jessica Williams (I’m not sure I can post the link here, since it has some language, but if you google “Jessica’s Feminized Atmosphere”, you’ll find it) was a much better, let’s just say more diverse segment. And it was the same issue, no matter who was doing it.

It’s just what honestly goes on with women all the time, and it’s awful.

 

[snapppyd]

An interesting issue pointed out about the video:
The Problem With That Catcalling Video

I can't say the truth because it is not politically correct and would probably get me banned. The problem is not with the video, it is with a certain demographic of men that many dissers have (thankfully) never encountered. There are plenty of white men in NY, yet they, by and large were not the problem.

 

[wilkeliza]

I can't say the truth because it is not politically correct and would probably get me banned. The problem is not with the video, it is with a certain demographic of men that many dissers have (thankfully) never encountered. There are plenty of white men in NY, yet they, by and large were not the problem.

Actually more than enough white men cat call. They even admitted that most of them were edited out as there were sirens or it was done of camera. Seemed kind of convenient. The firm that helped with the video has had issues before about editing in favor of one race.

 

[snapppyd]

I invite any of you to walk in her shoes and you will see the results will be the same.

 

[Jeff in BigD]

Methinks some gentlemen protest too much.

As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.

From a male's perspective, here's what's wrong with videos like this - the gut reaction is to automatically be on the defensive when you are part of the "offending party". A lot of that is largely in part to the reactions people have too. "God, men are awful", "buncha rape culture apologists" & "...and here come the 'Not All Men' chants!" Is that truly something that is supposed to make someone on the fence or a potential ally really jump on board?


If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".

Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.


Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.

 

[JenM]

As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.

From a male's perspective, here's what's wrong with videos like this - the gut reaction is to automatically be on the defensive when you are part of the "offending party". A lot of that is largely in part to the reactions people have too. "God, men are awful", "buncha rape culture apologists" & "...and here come the 'Not All Men' chants!" Is that truly something that is supposed to make someone on the fence or a potential ally really jump on board?


If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".

Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.


Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.

See...I don’t think all men are awful. They don’t all act like this. Most I know are pretty disgusted by the behavior they saw on the video as well. In fact, I found out about this video because a guy friend of mine posted it on Twitter, and he was mad about what happened in the video too.

But when I watch this video, it does hit home because this kind of harassment has happened to me. It’s happened to my friends. And it happens to us on a regular basis. I was literally cringing watching it.

And the hardest part about discussing this video is trying to explain why even the “hellos” and “you look nice today” comments are inappropriate as well. Because when they happen, they’re rarely friendly, and they usually descend into something even more unpleasant regardless if you respond or not.

I don’t agree that catcalling is specific to any race or gender. I’ve seen plenty of white guys shoot their mouths off, and there are certainly women who’ve been guilty of doing this as well.

But I’m speaking from my own experience on this, and I hate it. I hate having to cross the street because there’s a group I don’t want to walk by. I hate having some guy on a subway platform tell me my shirt is pretty because now he’s staring at me. I hate being called names because I didn’t smile, or turn around, or tell them how my day was going. I just wish they would leave us alone when we’re walking down the street. It’s really not to much to ask.

 

[Acklander]

As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.



If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".

Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.


Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.

Just like the Twitter campaign last spring about not all men vs yes all women, you can't compare "here's what a man goes through when falsely accused of rape or domestic violence" to something like this - reason being - not all men are falsely accused of a crime. Not even a majority of men are falsely accused of a crime. But every single woman has to go through the cat calls. Some more often than others, some more viciously than others, some more demeaning than others - but we all have to listen to it. I don't know one woman, who has reached the age of 21 without having to listen to it at least once. Some ignore, some get angry, some brush it off, some have hardened themselves to it - but we all get to listen to it, whether we want to or not. We have no choice in the matter, and that's what's not right.

 

[olwyngdh]

As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.

From a male's perspective, here's what's wrong with videos like this - the gut reaction is to automatically be on the defensive when you are part of the "offending party". A lot of that is largely in part to the reactions people have too. "God, men are awful", "buncha rape culture apologists" & "...and here come the 'Not All Men' chants!" Is that truly something that is supposed to make someone on the fence or a potential ally really jump on board?

If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".

Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.

Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.

Actually, I would be very supportive of that kind of video. It is a story that needs to be told. It isn't, however, an excuse for the objectifying of women, nor does it address womens safety and right to walk down the street without harassment and the necessity of fear, nor is it relevent to the subject.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You've been here twice? So it never happened to you, good for you.

No one is maligning all men. I have a wonderful husband who does not act like a jerk.

I wonder why you are so invested in this thread if you don't live here, have never had it happen to you, etc.

No--but one poster just assumes that ALL men are potential rapists. And was clueless as to why it would be offensive. And apparently, many agree that it shouldn't be offensive and that of men do not want to be considered rapist it is their duty to change rape culture.

The video is being used beyond NYC.

I did not realize only New Yorkers who are female could only approve the message without counterpoint could comment.

To be honest, I don't think it ever happens to me because of how I look. But it would be rather silly to be disappointed and wanting such attention, now wouldn't it?

Have at it--men are creeps and they alone are at fault world wide for the skeevy behaviors of a construction worker.

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Call me a country bumpkin but I tend to say hello to lots of people I see on the street or in an elevator. Sometimes I just nod my head at somebody.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You know what...

I am going to apologize. I have a very long road trip tomorrow and having trouble falling asleep. This thread has given me much to ponder. I wasn't going to comment at all as yes, cat calling sucks. And I was just reading along.

I chimed on to explain why a man would be offended by what a poster said here about assuming all men she encountered while alone are potential rapists to Her.

It was not the time to have the debate. I realize my experience is quite different from others and we can all agree that men have no right to make women feel uncomfortable and certainly should never make them feel threatened.

And yes, this is probably longer than it needs to be, but I am extremely sorry for derailing the discussion beyond its intended purpose. I hope that at some point the men who do believe such conduct is okay will be learn that it is not.

I am raising a son and I do try to keep all this in mind. He has 3 sisters, so we have plenty of opportunity to teach (within the constraints of them being siblings of course) what is and is not okay with girls. And while I would very much hate for him to be considered a potential rapist, it pales to the fact there I would never want his sisters to become victims to an actual rapist.

So peace with all of you and I do hope that it gets better and everyone stays safe.

(And this is intended to be an apology without qualifiers, so if it appears I am saying...but...but...but... I am exhausted and that was not my intent.)

 

[diznygirl]

Call me a country bumpkin but I tend to say hello to lots of people I see on the street or in an elevator. Sometimes I just nod my head at somebody.

Not all hellos are created equal.

Some are a whole lot creepier than others.

 

[snapppyd]

i'm gone for the weekend, not abandoning this, be back Sunday night.

 

[Jeff in BigD]

See...I don’t think all men are awful. They don’t all act like this. Most I know are pretty disgusted by the behavior they saw on the video as well. In fact, I found out about this video because a guy friend of mine posted it on Twitter, and he was mad about what happened in the video too.

But when I watch this video, it does hit home because this kind of harassment has happened to me. It’s happened to my friends. And it happens to us on a regular basis. I was literally cringing watching it.

Understood. I was cringing as well. I would suggest that any man who is bothered this video isn't someone who would catcall anyway.

And the hardest part about discussing this video is trying to explain why even the “hellos” and “you look nice today” comments are inappropriate as well. Because when they happen, they’re rarely friendly, and they usually descend into something even more unpleasant regardless if you respond or not.

I assume this is in reference specifically someone walking up to a random stranger on the street as opposed to, say, someone chatting someone up in line at the grocery store or approaching someone in a bar? The reason I'm asking is because when you're in a place as a customer, you are well within your rights to ask an employee or manager to intervene. If they don't, that sends a crystal clear message that they don't value you as a customer & you should let them know. I would also let them know that their owner or corporate office might be interested to know how they dealt with the matter. Part of my job as a bartender (& then as a manager) was kicking creeps to the curb when they couldn't comprehend what "I'm not interested" meant. Assuring everyone's safety (even if it means losing out on some business) is & should be the absolute top priority of any store.

I don’t agree that catcalling is specific to any race or gender. I’ve seen plenty of white guys shoot their mouths off, and there are certainly women who’ve been guilty of doing this as well.

I agree with all of this. I would suggest though that it's people that come from a lower-class background that are more inclined to think this is acceptable behavior.

Just like the Twitter campaign last spring about not all men vs yes all women, you can't compare "here's what a man goes through when falsely accused of rape or domestic violence" to something like this - reason being - not all men are falsely accused of a crime. Not even a majority of men are falsely accused of a crime. But every single woman has to go through the cat calls. Some more often than others, some more viciously than others, some more demeaning than others - but we all have to listen to it. I don't know one woman, who has reached the age of 21 without having to listen to it at least once. Some ignore, some get angry, some brush it off, some have hardened themselves to it - but we all get to listen to it, whether we want to or not. We have no choice in the matter, and that's what's not right.

My point in using that as an example was not to make a direct, apples-to-apples comparison, but to rather to show that addressing an issue while having the best of intent could end up being divisive for people. It's not the message, it's the delivery.

I can't speak to living in a public transit place (such as the east coast) - having grown up on the west coast & the southwest (where driving directly from point A to point B is the usual modality). I assume in that the higher the public transit & pedestrian traffic levels, the higher the amount of harassment.

I have been harassed & been in situations where I haven't felt safe myself. I've been lucky that my size is usually a deterrent for most people - so I've only been physically assaulted a handful of times.

That said, I'm not naive enough to think that I've experienced nearly as much harassment as the average woman.

Actually, I would be very supportive of that kind of video. It is a story that needs to be told.

I agree.

It isn't, however, an excuse for the objectifying of women, nor does it address womens safety and right to walk down the street without harassment and the necessity of fear, nor is it relevent to the subject.

My issue is with the delivery. I didn't bring the analogy up to change subjects & I certainly bring it up to justify the actions of the cat callers.

The real question is who is this video intended for?
Is this video meant to inform woman of cat calling? Likely not. I feel like most women are well aware from personal experience.

Is this meant for men that don't cat call?
Maybe not. If they don't do it, they're probably not going to start doing it.

Or is this meant for men that engage in cat calling?
If it is, I don't think there will be that moment of enlightenment for them that the rest of us are hoping for. They'll chalk it up to people being "overly sensitive" to "harmless fun." And they may be even less likely to listen to any future criticism as a result.



Awareness videos usually have three methods of execution:

1) Straight documentation - which is what we have here.
The problem is this - it falls on deaf ears with the perpetrators; victims will react out of frustration with some of them using broad generalizations, which in turn causes people (who are sympathetic) to take issue with the generalizations; this leads the two groups that are most receptive to the message to sometimes be at odds.

2) Humorous role reversal - this is a favorite of Buzzfeed.
This could be potentially helpful, but because humor is the goal, hyperbole comes into play. That makes it funny, sure, but also less believable or relatable.

3) Serious role reversal
This has the potential to be the most effective & relatable, but is usually clumsily executed. In order to highlight the issue, they'll use extreme examples in order to drive the point home. This has a tendency to possibly strike the passive viewer as overly-exaggerated or alarmist. Still others who might be committing the targeted offense may think "well, I'm not that bad, so I'm okay."