- Joined
- May 2, 2002
The 90% of guys who are not scumbags aren't the ones doing the cat calling.
10% can be a very small number, or it can be a huge number. Depends on the total numbers. 10% of the men in NYC is a pretty hefty number.
The 90% of guys who are not scumbags aren't the ones doing the cat calling.
I grew up in Chicago and was also the victim of many cat calls, whistles, smoochy noises and ... worst of all ... men who would follow me in a car, park ahead of me, watch me walk by (calling to me) and repeating it for blocks on end. I had to take the EL to work and men would sit down close to me on the EL and talk to me even though I was reading my book (pre iPhone days ) or would sit behind me and play with my long hair. I had to make sure that my hair was tucked in around me because guys would even touch it when sitting next to me *shudder*.
Of course the flip side of that is the fact that the 90% of guys who are not scumbags don't appreciate automatically being treated as such just because of the 10% possibility they MIGHT be one.
An interesting issue pointed out about the video:
The Problem With That Catcalling Video
An interesting issue pointed out about the video:
The Problem With That Catcalling Video
I can't say the truth because it is not politically correct and would probably get me banned. The problem is not with the video, it is with a certain demographic of men that many dissers have (thankfully) never encountered. There are plenty of white men in NY, yet they, by and large were not the problem.
As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.Methinks some gentlemen protest too much.
As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.
From a male's perspective, here's what's wrong with videos like this - the gut reaction is to automatically be on the defensive when you are part of the "offending party". A lot of that is largely in part to the reactions people have too. "God, men are awful", "buncha rape culture apologists" & "...and here come the 'Not All Men' chants!" Is that truly something that is supposed to make someone on the fence or a potential ally really jump on board?
If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".
Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.
Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.
As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.
If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".
Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.
Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.
Jeff in BigD said:As frustrating as it may be when someone doesn't see your point of view, comments like this are neither helpful nor persuasive.
From a male's perspective, here's what's wrong with videos like this - the gut reaction is to automatically be on the defensive when you are part of the "offending party". A lot of that is largely in part to the reactions people have too. "God, men are awful", "buncha rape culture apologists" & "...and here come the 'Not All Men' chants!" Is that truly something that is supposed to make someone on the fence or a potential ally really jump on board?
If someone made a video called "Here's What A Man Goes Through When He's Falsely Accused of Domestic Violence or Rape", I think it's safe to say that it would be fairly divisive, yes? Even though they may have the best of intent in releasing the video (ie: false accusations are one of the most destructive things possible since it ruins lives & it also makes it harder for genuine claims). The problem is that it would also serve to vilify women. Sure a couple of hearts & minds might've been won over to their point of view, but for the most part it just strengthens the division. People who have valid reasons for taking either side are automatically written off by the other as "shills" or "apologists".
Taking a hardline "if you're not with us, you're part of the problem" approach will certainly get attention, but it's not the positive kind. PETA is a pretty good example on the results of said tactics - the true believers see them as uncompromising crusaders, the rest see them as fanatical whackados.
Now, am I standing by the creeps in the video? Absolutely not. But spotlighting microaggressions & expecting vociferous outrage from the majority of the "offenders" is naive at best.
You've been here twice? So it never happened to you, good for you.
No one is maligning all men. I have a wonderful husband who does not act like a jerk.
I wonder why you are so invested in this thread if you don't live here, have never had it happen to you, etc.
Call me a country bumpkin but I tend to say hello to lots of people I see on the street or in an elevator. Sometimes I just nod my head at somebody.
Understood. I was cringing as well. I would suggest that any man who is bothered this video isn't someone who would catcall anyway.See...I dont think all men are awful. They dont all act like this. Most I know are pretty disgusted by the behavior they saw on the video as well. In fact, I found out about this video because a guy friend of mine posted it on Twitter, and he was mad about what happened in the video too.
But when I watch this video, it does hit home because this kind of harassment has happened to me. Its happened to my friends. And it happens to us on a regular basis. I was literally cringing watching it.
I assume this is in reference specifically someone walking up to a random stranger on the street as opposed to, say, someone chatting someone up in line at the grocery store or approaching someone in a bar? The reason I'm asking is because when you're in a place as a customer, you are well within your rights to ask an employee or manager to intervene. If they don't, that sends a crystal clear message that they don't value you as a customer & you should let them know. I would also let them know that their owner or corporate office might be interested to know how they dealt with the matter. Part of my job as a bartender (& then as a manager) was kicking creeps to the curb when they couldn't comprehend what "I'm not interested" meant. Assuring everyone's safety (even if it means losing out on some business) is & should be the absolute top priority of any store.And the hardest part about discussing this video is trying to explain why even the hellos and you look nice today comments are inappropriate as well. Because when they happen, theyre rarely friendly, and they usually descend into something even more unpleasant regardless if you respond or not.
I agree with all of this. I would suggest though that it's people that come from a lower-class background that are more inclined to think this is acceptable behavior.I dont agree that catcalling is specific to any race or gender. Ive seen plenty of white guys shoot their mouths off, and there are certainly women whove been guilty of doing this as well.
My point in using that as an example was not to make a direct, apples-to-apples comparison, but to rather to show that addressing an issue while having the best of intent could end up being divisive for people. It's not the message, it's the delivery.Just like the Twitter campaign last spring about not all men vs yes all women, you can't compare "here's what a man goes through when falsely accused of rape or domestic violence" to something like this - reason being - not all men are falsely accused of a crime. Not even a majority of men are falsely accused of a crime. But every single woman has to go through the cat calls. Some more often than others, some more viciously than others, some more demeaning than others - but we all have to listen to it. I don't know one woman, who has reached the age of 21 without having to listen to it at least once. Some ignore, some get angry, some brush it off, some have hardened themselves to it - but we all get to listen to it, whether we want to or not. We have no choice in the matter, and that's what's not right.
I agree.Actually, I would be very supportive of that kind of video. It is a story that needs to be told.
My issue is with the delivery. I didn't bring the analogy up to change subjects & I certainly bring it up to justify the actions of the cat callers.It isn't, however, an excuse for the objectifying of women, nor does it address womens safety and right to walk down the street without harassment and the necessity of fear, nor is it relevent to the subject.