Your thoughts on divorce?

[Wishing on a star]

I think that the OP does need to detail her husbands behavior.... She is clearly confused about if his behavior is crossing any normal/healthy lines, or is showing any clear pattern. And, there is simply no way to do this, other than to give a list of detailed examples. Also, by detailing his behavior, she is also detailing why it bothers her, and how she handled it. She has already mentioned that she can see how she may have contributed to 'becoming a doormat'. She has already mentioned that she is seeking to change.

DLM - You already are feeling as if your husband is using you as a doormat. Passive Aggressive behavior includes a pattern of making the other party and their behavior ALWAYS responsible for any problems.

Do not let any other posters here add to this by questioning your motives here and pointing out that YOU could be the problem!!! Only your counselor who has talked with you face to face can make that kind of determination.
HUGS!!!!

DLM, As far as telling your DH... If you are seriously questioning whether you should tell him or not... If you are feeling like you must do this on your own, and keep this from him, or 'Hide' this from him, (even if just temporarily) You mention the measely little $10.00 CoPay... And, additionally, you are asking "Could this make things worse"... To me, these are very clear indications that you are feeling like

A. He should have some say-so or control in your decision to seek counseling

B. You might be wrong in failing to obtain his 'approval'

C. He would 'disapprove', and effectively tell you that NO, you should not seek counseling.

D. You might be risking his wrath (or his rejection) for doing something without him that he might not approve of.

Or, All of the ABOVE.

All of these sound as if you feel like you are under the thumb (or the doormat) of a controlling husband. Also, I would like to add, that a controlling person would definately see this counseling as a threat... something that would usurp their control... something that that they know is completely outside of their control. Counseling would be a HUGE issue for this type of person.

I would like to reassure you that YOU have the right to seek any kind of medical or psychological assistance you want..... It should not have anything to do with your DHs approval at all.

Go ahead with the counseling!!!
After you begin to see the counselors 'take' on the situation, then you can follow their advice on when/how to tell your DH. Perhaps they would want to work with you alone, then encourage your DH to participate later.

 

[EltonJohn]

DisneyLovingMama,

Couples say vows for a reason.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Good grief! I didn't say she was the problem, only that she can only work on her own issues! Believe it or not some seek marriage counseling only to fix the other person. Marriage is a joint effort.

I also believe that everytime someone consults the DIS on marriage issues that the DIS only hears one side of the issue. And for strangers to declare "emotional abuse" is both sad and scary.

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

I also believe that everytime someone consults the DIS on marriage issues that the DIS only hears one side of the issue.

I wish I knew my husband's side of the story. I wish I knew what made him so unhappy or why he feel his life sucks. I wish I could place the blame completely on myself so I could fix things. But, I don't know what it is I'm missing to make him happy. And, I just don't have the capacity to figure it out anymore. And, no matter what I do or how I change, it doesn't seem to matter. When I pull back and am ready to separate or make significant changes is when he sweetens up and acts like the man (boy) I fell in love with. But, those moments are getting fewer and further between. And, each time the cycle goes through again, it get's slightly worse and longer.

Like I said, I wish I was solely to blame. I know I could change myself. He's unwilling to change and doesn't even see a problem.

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

DLM, As far as telling your DH... If you are seriously questioning whether you should tell him or not... If you are feeling like you must do this on your own, and keep this from him, or 'Hide' this from him, (even if just temporarily) You mention the measely little $10.00 CoPay... And, additionally, you are asking "Could this make things worse"... To me, these are very clear indications that you are feeling like

A. He should have some say-so or control in your decision to seek counseling

B. You might be wrong in failing to obtain his 'approval'

C. He would 'disapprove', and effectively tell you that NO, you should not seek counseling.

D. You might be risking his wrath (or his rejection) for doing something without him that he might not approve of.

Or, All of the ABOVE.

I guess B, C and D would be the answers.
B - If I'm trying to better the relationship, do I make it worse by omitting a crucial step I've take for myself?
C - He would disapprove and has told me so several times. Has he said "No" overtly? I don't think so, just ladles the guilt, the worse case scenarios, the disapproval, the silent treatment, the looks, etc.
D - His rejection and, I guess, his wrath (in silent treatment and "guilt" trips) if he finds out I've gone ahead and done something he doesn't approve of.

Look, I know he can be a jerk. But, coming from my background, I have a hard time judging just how bad he is. My dad used to kick and slap my Mom when he was angry. So, compared to that DH is a prince and I should count my lucky stars. That's when the doormat in me springs up.

 

[Christine]

I wish I knew my husband's side of the story. I wish I knew what made him so unhappy or why he feel his life sucks. I wish I could place the blame completely on myself so I could fix things. But, I don't know what it is I'm missing to make him happy. And, I just don't have the capacity to figure it out anymore. And, no matter what I do or how I change, it doesn't seem to matter. When I pull back and am ready to separate or make significant changes is when he sweetens up and acts like the man (boy) I fell in love with. But, those moments are getting fewer and further between. And, each time the cycle goes through again, it get's slightly worse and longer.

Like I said, I wish I was solely to blame. I know I could change myself. He's unwilling to change and doesn't even see a problem.

Are you sure you're not my best friend? This is just way to similar.

 

[JimFitz]

Communication is key. My wife and I have been through tough times. I can be a lazy jerk and have a very short temper where arguments wind up with me yelling or cursing. The thing is we are aware of our issues, talk about them and think of ways to change them. I love my wife dearly and want to spend the rest of my life with her but she does some things that make me nuts!!!

Read the book the Good Marriage

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-6749098-0285732?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[Stacy's a freak]

DisneyLovingMama,

Couples say vows for a reason.

Put on your sparkly flame suit, Elton....

What do you mean by this? That if vow to "honor, cherish, OBEY" that your own happiness and well being should suffer just to adhere to those original vows? I whole-heartedly disagree. You only have one life, and you need to make sure that you make the best of it.

Listen, I don't know your situation, DLM, but if you are feeling things that are unsettling to you, the very least you can do is talk to someone and explore them to find out why. Seeing a therapist is a great first step and you shouldn't feel at all ashamed to tell your husband of your plan. Heck, that could be your first step away from the doormat feelings you are having.

As for Elton (I'm sad that your screen name is the same as my favorite musicians), step back and look at ALL of the posibilities here. Vows are sacred, yes - but there are exceptions to every rule.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I wish I knew my husband's side of the story. I wish I knew what made him so unhappy or why he feel his life sucks. I wish I could place the blame completely on myself so I could fix things. But, I don't know what it is I'm missing to make him happy. And, I just don't have the capacity to figure it out anymore. And, no matter what I do or how I change, it doesn't seem to matter. When I pull back and am ready to separate or make significant changes is when he sweetens up and acts like the man (boy) I fell in love with. But, those moments are getting fewer and further between. And, each time the cycle goes through again, it get's slightly worse and longer.

Like I said, I wish I was solely to blame. I know I could change myself. He's unwilling to change and doesn't even see a problem.

And, also this.... (I don't know how to use the 'quote' feature twice in the same post!)

_________________________________________________________

.... coming from my background, I have a hard time judging just how bad he is. My dad used to kick and slap my Mom when he was angry. So, compared to that DH is a prince and I should count my lucky stars. That's when the doormat in me springs up.
__________________________________________________________



You know, DLM, you are really getting pretty deep here! I really see some other heavy issues creeping in.

You mention how "compared to your dad...." etc... That is really some deep seated stuff. I do think that there is often truth to the fact that people/women choose and develop THEIR relationships based on their history and their relationship with their fathers.

Also, you mention that your DH is simply not happy with his life. You wrote: "But, I don't know what it is I'm missing to make him happy."

That by itself is fraught with issues! YOU cannot make anyone else happy. period.

Even going back to your very first post when you created this thread
___________________________________________________
I will have to be the one to change. I will have to make things more interesting. I have to satisfy his emotional needs more. ......
______________________________________________________

All of these things, obviously, to make your marriage work, to make HIM happy.

Unfortunately, at the same time that YOU cannot make someone else 'happy', it is the habit of a passive-aggressive person, to hold others (especially those closest to them) totally responsible for any problems(unhappiness), or Happiness. And, actually, this is exactly what causes them to be 'CONTROLLING'. Very clearly, if what somebody else does is viewed as what would make you happy (or what is making you UNhappy) then controlling the others closest to you is your only control over your own happiness and satisfaction. This kind of person (as mentioned earlier) NEVER takes responsibility. (always somebody else responsible) This is because the responsible person is the one with the real accountability. This person never sees the problem, because to see the problem is to take 'ownership' of the problem, and to make themselves accountable or responsible for solving the problem.

It sounds like with all of these issues flying, there could be some real co-dependancy going on here????

I would definately go ahead with the counseling. Hopefully you have found a good counselor who you will be compatible with, and who will really dig in and address any issues that are affecting you right now.

PS: to some of the other posters here. Wedding vows do NOT state that a wife will ignore her own happiness and satisfaction, and ignore marital problems, and become a 'doormat'. I wish any other critical and over-simplified, and religiously motivated, comments about 'Wedding Vows' would all be stated on other threads where they would be considered on-topic.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Actually, if someone asks about my thoughts on divorce, I will include vows. If the OP hadn't asked the question, folks wouldn't have answered. Vowing to honor someone thru the good times and the bad goes two ways. I don't believe in focusing only on what makes me happy or fulfilled. That is what give and take are all about.

For folks to be calling someone abusive and whatnot when they don't know him or the OP, is, as I stated earlier, sad and scary. The OP may be a big old selfish flake for all we know, and foolish enough to get riled up over what a bunch of strangers have posted. And the opinions of a bunch of counselor-wannabees could have a serious affect on her children.

Yes, the OP should seek counseling. But she should be aware that just like a cardiologist focuses on the heart, and may ignore the underlying problem, counselors have their own focuses too. They look for abuse, seeing it where it may or maynot exist. They look for issues that keep a person coming back. And many will just say what you want them to say. Dear friend went for "short-term" counseling (with another friend of mine!) due to date-rape 20 years ago, and four years later is still on the couch. She has become a self-centered, nothing is any good, unless it make her happy kindof person. Frankly, we stand by her out of habit, not because she is still a pleasant gal to be around.

 

[Wishing on a star]

For folks to be calling someone abusive and whatnot when they don't know him or the OP, is, as I stated earlier, sad and scary. The OP may be a big old selfish flake for all we know, and foolish enough to get riled up over what a bunch of strangers have posted.

Most of us on this thread have NOT called the OP's husband 'abusive'... OP herself has made comments that her husband could sometimes be what she referred to as 'a jerk'. The OP has made comments that she feels like she is treated as a 'doormat' and has to try harder to do everything to please him to make the marriage work. Those of us who have seen this kind of relationship first-hand, have merely seen the red-flags, and have encouraged her to go ahead with the counseling. This does NOT make us wrong... This does NOT make us 'counselor wanna-be's'

Also, I think it is a bit rude/offensive to say the poster may be a 'big old selfish flake'. She has not posted anything to show that she wants her husband to do things to fulfill her selfish desires. I do not feel that this comment was warranted.

Yes, the OP should seek counseling. But she should be aware that just like a cardiologist focuses on the heart, and may ignore the underlying problem, counselors have their own focuses too. They look for abuse, seeing it where it may or maynot exist. They look for issues that keep a person coming back. And many will just say what you want them to say. Dear friend went for "short-term" counseling (with another friend of mine!) due to date-rape 20 years ago, and four years later is still on the couch. She has become a self-centered, nothing is any good, unless it make her happy kindof person. Frankly, we stand by her out of habit, not because she is still a pleasant gal to be around.

Very interesting comments!!! I do have to agree with you a little on this!!! Counselors are not always 'Good'. They do not always have the persons best interests at heart. Anyone who is considering counseling should be aware of this, and try different counselors until they find one who 'rings true'.

That being said... this is true for ANY professional. If we go to see a doctor, he may NOT be right doctor, he may NOT be a 'good' doctor. But, does that mean that we should shy away from doctor's, and not seek professional care when it is needed?????

And, about the issue with vows... The OP has never stated that she is immediately filing for divorce, running off with another man, etc.. etc... She is clearly very confused and unhappy with her situation... She has been trying to give her marriage her 'all'. Whether her situation warrants divorce or not has yet to be established. And, this decision is entirely up to the OP, her husband, and God!!! (Note: This coming from a conservative Christian who believes in 'vows')

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

For folks to be calling someone abusive and whatnot when they don't know him or the OP, is, as I stated earlier, sad and scary. The OP may be a big old selfish flake for all we know, and foolish enough to get riled up over what a bunch of strangers have posted. And the opinions of a bunch of counselor-wannabees could have a serious affect on her children.

Actually, with my personality, I'm much more likely to get riled up by your post, convince myself I'm a "big old selfish flake" and forget about any happiness or fulfillment. However, my biggest concern is for my children. I need to determine what is best for them in this whole situation and what is healthy for them in the long run. Don't think that it's not constantly on my mind that woman choose their father to marry. I think about that in relation to DD constantly.

One other question - How do you find a good therapist. The one I'm seeing today was the third recommendation of my PCP. I do NOT want someone to tell me what I want to hear or to see things that may not be there. How do I ensure that's not happening?

 

[Maleficent13]

Well, here's another counselor wanna-be chiming in. And I don't have third hand knowledge of a similar situation, I have 1st hand knowledge of it. My marriage was pretty much exactly like yours. I ended up taking a second job I didn't need just so I didn't have to go home at night. I WAS a doormat. And I spent many years trying harder and harder and harder to make it work, but the thing is, to him it wasn't broken. He liked the doormat (and let's face it, why not?). The world revolved around him and I was worn to a frazzle just anticipating everything in life to avoid pissing him off.

No, he never hit me. But quite frankly, what mades his life more important than mine? Why should I have tried to make his life better to the detriment of my own? Vows are no reason, IMHO, to abjucate yourself to your spouse. You are worth just as much as he is...you just need to figure that out. It took me several years to get there. Believe me, once you do, whether it saves your marriage or not, you will feel SO MUCH BETTER!

 

[Christine]

One other question - How do you find a good therapist. The one I'm seeing today was the third recommendation of my PCP. I do NOT want someone to tell me what I want to hear or to see things that may not be there. How do I ensure that's not happening?

You know, in your heart, I think you probably already *know* what's right.

First of all, I would just be honest with the therapist. Tell him/her right off that you want a very OBJECTIVE opinion as to what you think is going on. Tell the therapist your fears about therapy and becoming dependent on it. In my vast experience with psychiatrists/psychologists, I have found that most of them truly want to see you get better and get you out of their office. Maybe I'm just lucky in that I've not had a bad experience with one. Some I have like better than others. But the important part of therapy is to be totally honest, even when you have to tell the therapist that you are skeptical about therapy and may distrust it.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, my friend went to counseling for some help in dealing with her teenage daughter. As the talks evolved, they got more into my friend's behaviors and her marriage. Now, my friend knows, deep down, that something is not *right* with her DH. He sounds very much like yours. Unhappy always, nothing can make him happy. He is miserable and he is even more miserable if he can't have everyone under his thumb. Other than that though, he is a very good father in most ways and a good provider, a good employee, a model citizen. So it is very hard for my friend to see if she is just "dreaming this stuff up" or if it is normal/abnormal. She has talked with me about it and I've basically told her that he is a nutjob (I was a bit kinder). She then told some of the behaviors to the therapist who confirmed that his behavior is outside the normal "icky" stuff. No, my friend has not continued counseling. She got what she needed out of it. She knows now that her gut feelings are correct. That was all she needed was some objective confirmation. Now she needs to figure out what to do.

So, I would try the therapist. Just be brutally honest.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Finding a good therapist- As Christine said, be brutally honest.
If the therapist spends the time repeating back to you what you just said - think twice about him/her. Eventually, you might come up with something useful, but it can take forever!
If the therapist makes radical judgements based on very little information, run like crazy! They have their own agenda.
Remember that if you say anything that might give concern about your children's safety and well-being, the therapist must report the info.
Trust your gut. If the therapist gives you the willies, not good. That doesn't mean ignore input because you don't like it.
Ask about the types of clients the therapist works with most. If she specializes in alcoholism, for example, she may not have the experience in marriage or personal counseling.
Find out if she is experienced in short-term therapy. Most insurance carriers only cover so much mental health. You don't want to get 6 months thru a year long process and have to quit.

FTR, my point has been, giving marital advice to someone you don't even know doesn't make sense. Taking marital advice from folks you don't know doesn't make sense either. Especially when there are children to be affected.

 

[poohandwendy]

I just wanted to interject here that sometimes when you go into counselling, you find that there really isn't 'someone' to blame or someone in the wrong. Sometimes it is the result of BOTH people's actions and reactions to each other that is causing the issues in the marriage. If their communication skills are very weak, that may be all that really needs to be worked on.

The OP says that she doesn't know ''what she is missing to make him happy''. His unhappiness may not have to do with her at all. He could be clinically depressed, he may be feeling pressured in many different ways (job, becoming a new father, etc). We don't know. He may not even know how to verbalize his feelings. If they are not goood at communicating, they both could feel very misunderstood and their frustration could be getting in the way.

On the same token, he may not be what is making her so unhappy too. She may be very sensitive to each and every action he takes because of her underlying insecurities. He may be frustrated because he doesn't think there is anything HE can do to make her happy. I don't know.

I am not going to be quick to say there is emotional abuse merely because the OP 'feels' like a doormat. That can come from many different issues, it can come from insecurity on the part of the OP. I don't know. This may be something that can be resolved with counselling of one or both of the people involved.

I just wanted to add that this doesn't necessarily have to be a situation where one person is to blame and the other is being abused or vice versa. I think we tend to do that too quickly without considering the whole picture.

Optimally, the OP would start counselling and eventually the Dh would become involved and resolve his own issues too.

Please do not read this as me trying to place blame on ANYONE or shift it in one direction or the other, I am merely pointing out that without much more information...more than could be gathered by only one party involved, we cannot begin to know what is going wrong in this marriage. It may be dire. It may be a lack of communication that needs addressed. Only a good therapist can figure that out.

I want to wish the Op well. I think you are going in the right direction by seeking prefessional help.

ETA, my post in in response to others stating 'they have been in or know someone in a similar situation'. There is no way to know what the situation really is without knowing the dynamics of both parties. It's like someone posting that they have abdominal pain. Everyone will chime in that they have had the ''same'' thing, all with different underlying reasons. Either way, it needs professional attention. Either way, only a professional can diagnose and treat the problem. I think it is good to share our experiences, but the OP should keep in mind that symptoms can come from various causes.

 

[totalia]

Vows mean absolutely nothing if one person is abusing the other. At that point, the vows are null and void.

I will NOT put up with being abused. Period. Husband or not. And to hell with the vows. You do not stand by someone who is going to abuse you. They either stop abusing you or you leave.

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

Just a quick update before I request the thread be closed - my appt we very well today. She confirmed a lot of what I already thought/knew - I had taught my DH the dance steps we are dancing now and I'll have to start teaching him the new ones. If he won't learn them, well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. In the meantime, I have some ideas on how begin changing the direction of my life, without totally overturning the boat...yet.

Thanks for EVERYONE'S thoughts, advice, perceptions, recollections. They have been more helpful than you'll ever know.

 

[sharbear]

Happy to hear that things went well.

Just one thing, you deserve to be happy. Never forget that.

 

[Christine]

Sounds great. I'm glad you're talking to someone objective.