Your thoughts on divorce?

[poohandwendy]

But what if the changes I want to make provide me with more self-esteem and desire for independence. Will a mate necessarily react positively to that?

Yes, he should. Not that he won't feel threatened at first. But, most people are attracted to self-assured and confident people. As long as you keep him involved in your life and don't give the impression that your independence is a means to end the marriage...he should be happy that you are improving yourself.

Is the thought that because I feel like a doormat and unhappy with certain aspects of my life that he treats me like a doormat?

Quite possibly. Not that it makes it right...but we get what we expect. When our expectations are really low, it is highly likely we will be right.

You make yourself a doormat when you lie down and give up.

So, if I stand up for myself, find my voice, he'll respond positively? I just don't know if that'll happen.

I am seeing a power struggle here. Obviously, you should not be a doormat. But, the polar opposite is also destructive. You should stand up for yourself. You should have from day one. But be cautious not to turn it into another power struggle.

 

[Marseeya]

But what if the changes I want to make provide me with more self-esteem and desire for independence. Will a mate necessarily react positively to that? Is the thought that because I feel like a doormat and unhappy with certain aspects of my life that he treats me like a doormat? So, if I stand up for myself, find my voice, he'll respond positively? I just don't know if that'll happen.

The beauty in the kind of change you're talking about is that it will benefit you either way! He could react positively towards the new you and your marriage will get back on track. OR, he'll react negatively, but you'll have the self confidence and strength to move on without him. It's a win-win situation.

Keep in mind I'm just talking generalities and not referring to an abusive or dangerous situation.

I don't believe in tossing a marriage out the window when things go bad without making some real effort towards changing things. Sometimes only one partner has the gumption to make those changes, but it can still work out. Note I didn't say it will, just that it can.

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

Thank you again for your thoughts - please keep them coming. I would like to post more about my situation, but it's hard not to give a biased, one-sided view of things, you know?

I think marrying when I was very young, to someone I saw as "rescuing" me from my parents' house is a large part of the problem. I was so grateful to him, that I did everything in repayment. I was so afraid of losing him and having to go back to my parents' house that I put up with things that he said and did, because "it was as bad as Mom and Dad." Unfortunately, I've grown up from that and know I can stand on my own two feet, even with 2.3 kids. In every other aspect of my life, I am NOT a doormat. And, I'm tired of being one with him. Just don't know HOW to change it.

Quick question before I hop in the shower, will a counselor be able to tell me (or help me understand) if the situation is emotionally abusive? DH can say hurtful things, but discounts my feelings when I address that. I often wonder if I am just "too sensitive" or "looking for something wrong." I'm so screwed up, I don't even know how I feel about this situation without someone telling me. There are days I love him (and those are the ones when he's making and effort and generally being nice) and then there are days I want him out on his ear.

 

[Miss Inga Depointe]

Read Love Must Be Tough by Dr. James Dobson. It sounds like something you might like, if you'd be interested in a book written from a Christian perspective.

What is the Christian perspective? I was raised to think it was a sin, unless there was infidelity or physical abuse. Has that changed?

 

[Kermit]

What is the Christian perspective? I was raised to think it was a sin, unless there was infidelity or physical abuse. Has that changed?

It's not a book about divorce. The OP mentioned that she had heard that you can become a stronger person and have your spouse find you more interesting and alluring when you do that, and this book describes that very process. The book does recommend using separation sometimes as a step toward marriage restitution, but it's not a book about divorce. It was written to help couples prevent divorce.

 

[Christine]

Thank you again for your thoughts - please keep them coming. I would like to post more about my situation, but it's hard not to give a biased, one-sided view of things, you know?

I think marrying when I was very young, to someone I saw as "rescuing" me from my parents' house is a large part of the problem. I was so grateful to him, that I did everything in repayment. I was so afraid of losing him and having to go back to my parents' house that I put up with things that he said and did, because "it was as bad as Mom and Dad." Unfortunately, I've grown up from that and know I can stand on my own two feet, even with 2.3 kids. In every other aspect of my life, I am NOT a doormat. And, I'm tired of being one with him. Just don't know HOW to change it.

Quick question before I hop in the shower, will a counselor be able to tell me (or help me understand) if the situation is emotionally abusive? DH can say hurtful things, but discounts my feelings when I address that. I often wonder if I am just "too sensitive" or "looking for something wrong." I'm so screwed up, I don't even know how I feel about this situation without someone telling me. There are days I love him (and those are the ones when he's making and effort and generally being nice) and then there are days I want him out on his ear.

You sound a LOT like my best friend. She is a very confident and self-assured woman at work and with friends. At home--it is a totally different story. In my opinion, her DH is emotionally abusive to her. She has lived with it for so long, I don't even think she realizes how bad he is. Sometimes, something will come up and it will kind of hit her how "off" he is. She basically married him for the same reasons you described. He was a way out of a very unstable home life. He is very stable, a very hard worker. He is also a very passive/aggressive, controlling JERK. In order to "make things nice" at home, she let him call all the shots and "laid down like a doormat" to keep the peace.

She knows this now, but she is almost helpless to change it because she cannot stand any strife in her home. She did go to counseling for her DD, and the marriage issues came up. I think she was kind of shocked when her counselor pointed out how wrong some of the behaviors were. She is "trying" to stand up to him, but let me tell you, 20 years of certain behaviors don't change easily and it does not go well.

If you DH is this type of controlling jerk--honestly, I'm not sure that you being independent and standing up for yourself is going to go over well with him. These people are just like this and they "look" for women who have a weak spot so that they can control them emotionally.

 

[Miss Inga Depointe]

It's not a book about divorce. The OP mentioned that she had heard that you can become a stronger person and have your spouse find you more interesting and alluring when you do that, and this book describes that very process. The book does recommend using separation sometimes as a step toward marriage restitution, but it's not a book about divorce. It was written to help couples prevent divorce.

I was really wondering about the Christian perspective on divorce anyway. With the divorce rate so high, what do the churches say?

 

[Kermit]

I was really wondering about the Christian perspective on divorce anyway. With the divorce rate so high, what do the churches say?

I'd prefer to leave this thread on topic for the OP. She knows what her own feelings about the issue are, and if she wants clarification, she can seek advice from someone she trusts.

 

[meandtheguys2]

My perspective for my life is that I promised to remain with him forever. I didn't promise to stay when I liked him, when he behaved the way I think he should, or when he fulfills my every need. He made the same promise to me. I know that I am far less than the perfect spouse, and don't expect him to be. I think that marriages go up and down. Sometimes it is as if our souls were connected, and there are times I long for singlehood and no responsibilities. Everytime I start mentally griping about all of his bad habits, I make an effort to look at myself and my habits. It helps to put it all in perspective for the long term instead of the short.

 

[Aidensmom]

Quick question before I hop in the shower, will a counselor be able to tell me (or help me understand) if the situation is emotionally abusive? DH can say hurtful things, but discounts my feelings when I address that. I often wonder if I am just "too sensitive" or "looking for something wrong." I'm so screwed up, I don't even know how I feel about this situation without someone telling me. There are days I love him (and those are the ones when he's making and effort and generally being nice) and then there are days I want him out on his ear.

Yes, a counselor can help you understand if your situation is an emotionally abusive one. If you are wondering if it is, it may be. It may not be intentional though, some people kind of use it as a defense mechanism to not have to face their own emotions. Not that I am saying this is a good thing, but it could be something that could be changed if your spouse was willing to do individual or couples counseling (if this indeed is the case). If you are being told you are "too sensitive", it doesn't neccessarily mean that you are, but may be his way of having to avoid the emotions that are present.

 

[aprincessmom]

If your DH is not willing to do anything, can you do it alone?

Been there...tried it for almost 2 years. It doesn't work. Marriage is a partnership and if one partner isn't interested in saving the marriage, the other one is pretty much doomed.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Quick question before I hop in the shower, will a counselor be able to tell me (or help me understand) if the situation is emotionally abusive?

YES!
And this will be good because you won't repeat it over and over again.

 

[reeddi]

I just have to chime in here because the OP struck a cord. I didn't feel like my marriage was in trouble but I did feel like a doormat. I would handle everything but mowing the lawn. Seriously, bills, car repair, cooking, cleaning, kid duties (not that he isn't a good dad but he didn't deal well with homework issues or "girl issues" as he phrases it) Anyway, back on track here, I started going to conseuling for MYSELF. Why was I feeling this way? Why did I want to lash out at everyone? Why didn't my husband see this turmoil and help? You know what, I found out that I am an "A" personality. If things are not good in every aspect of my life, I was depressed. I would actually feel guilty for spending time or money on myself, I have no hobbies but my husband has 2 now 3. On the third visit, the doctor asked me to bring my husband to get his perspective of me. My husband had noticed more than I thought. However, he was shocked by the guilty feelings I was having. Well, even since that one visit things are changing. I have my last visit today. I feel much more confident in myself and my relationship. As a matter of fact, my husband and I went to Vegas two weekends ago and he suprised me with a renewal ceremony and said he loves me more now than 10 years ago when we first got married. It did have a lot to do with how my reaction to things changed and how I became more confident in myself.
So to the OP, it CAN help to go by yourself first. It will help clarify where the problem really lies. And I agree with the other poster that said you can only control YOUR reaction to things. Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[Wishing on a star]

You sound a LOT like my best friend. She is a very confident and self-assured woman at work and with friends. At home--it is a totally different story. In my opinion, her DH is emotionally abusive to her. She has lived with it for so long, I don't even think she realizes how bad he is. Sometimes, something will come up and it will kind of hit her how "off" he is. She basically married him for the same reasons you described. He was a way out of a very unstable home life. He is very stable, a very hard worker. He is also a very passive/aggressive, controlling JERK. In order to "make things nice" at home, she let him call all the shots and "laid down like a doormat" to keep the peace.


If your DH is this type of controlling jerk--honestly, I'm not sure that you being independent and standing up for yourself is going to go over well with him. These people are just like this and they "look" for women who have a weak spot so that they can control them emotionally.

I see a lot of truth in this post!!!! And, as the OP mentions, for the woman caught in this kind of situation, she finds it hard to see the forest for trees. Many woman can go their whole lives in this type of relationship.

To the OP: YES, I think that a good counselor would easily be able to tell if you were a 'doormat' to a controlling husband. If you are feeling confused, and feeling like you are being treated as a doormat, then an objective counselor may be of great help.

As a matter of fact, my FIL is this type of a man. He is one huge passive-aggressive controlling jerk. And, everyone around him must be under his control. (He even feels obligated to have us answer to him about things like eating and sleeping!!!) He has to be calling every shot. I have never spoken a rude word to him. But he hates me because I will not be under his control. He hates the fact that as DH's wife, I have usurped the control he wants to have over his son. He is still trying to control my DH, and to come between me and my DH, by telling DH what a lame pathetic wife I am, and that 'He can do better'. FIL's only real complaint, I dont try to 'please him' ... (Sorry, but 'pleasing' my FIL... not to high on my list!!! LOL!!!!)

Bottom line, it is OUR marriage. FIL has no control over us. It is NONE of his business. That is what makes it 'Control'. Everybody has the right to contol their own life and their own decisions. But, there is simply NO right for anyone to try to have control over another person. Not even a husband-wife!!!

Bottom line is that DH's Mom goes right along with all of this as FIL's wife. She is an 'ENABLER'. To my DH, he was raised thinking that all of this is like 'Normal'. I have had to, very carefully, point out that this is not right. that this is not a normal situation. It has taken DH a loooonnnng time to see the light. I have had to be assertive to my DH, telling him that DS and I will NOT ever see his parents again, unless he agrees to defend me. That I refuse to agree to go with him and take our son to see his parents, only to be controlled, belittled and emotionally abused.

The thing about this passive-aggressive controlling behavior, is that for the man, it does NOT go over well when the woman begins to open her eyes to the situation and assert herself. Often, this can develop into an abusive situation. The presence of any anger would be a huge red flag to get out immediately.


To the OP...

You mention that some days your DH makes inappropriate comments, but that then there will be days where he actually makes and effort to be 'nice'. That is CLASSIC. It is a tactic used to keep the woman in his web. Occasionally be 'nice' enough to bring her back in under control.

NO, do not change yourself, to fit your husbands demands, to save your marriage. You may temporary save your marriage, but you will not be saving yourself.

YES, do change yourself to be true to yourself and to be the best person you can be, and to insure your own happiness.

I totally agree with the poster who mentioned that positive change and counseling is a win-win situation... If your marriage is viable, this will be a positive change, and cement your relationship. If your marriage is not healthy and is not viable, then positive change and counseling will be what you need to help you to deal with this and to come out a stronger happier person!!!

I notice that you mention 'DIVORCE'.... Well, NOBODY on a message board can say whether this is what is right... That is up to YOU! Only you know yourself, your husband, and your situation.

HUGS!!!

 

[Christine]

The thing about this passive-aggressive controlling behavior, is that for the man, it does NOT go over well when the woman begins to open her eyes to the situation and assert herself. Often, this can develop into an abusive situation. The presence of any anger would be a huge red flag to get out immediately.


To the OP...

You mention that some days your DH makes inappropriate comments, but that then there will be days where he actually makes and effort to be 'nice'. That is CLASSIC. It is a tactic used to keep the woman in his web. Occasionally be 'nice' enough to bring her back in under control.

Just wanted to echo this. My friend's husband does this. For the most part, he can barely talk to her and he "scowls" at everything she does. When she finally gets brave enough to confront him and she gets "real" serious about it, he actually breaks down and pretends like he has no idea what he does. She is then never able to get anywhere with him because he will never acknowledge the behavior.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that my friend's husband hates me because I think she has exerted some flicker of independence since hanging out with me. He can barely speak to me.

But the funny thing is, I never suspect he will ever physically abuse her. But the emotional abuse is so subtle and so pervasive that, if I hadn't seen it myself, I would have never believed it.

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

Well, I am looking forward to seeing what the counselor will say tomorrow. I've written up a bunch of posts to detail my DH's behavior, but instead of posting, have saved them for her. That way, I don't "forget" if I'm nervous or something tomorrow.

I don't think he would be physically abusive, but he is so passive agressive and his words can be taken a million different ways (joke, concern, anger, abuse) - that's why I get so confused. I've read Verbal Abuse and he does fit a lot of those patterns, but I guess I have a hard time believing he knows or intends to hurt me. That he could be that devious. I actually spoke to Patricia Evans once, a few years ago about it.

One thing I can't remember if I actually posted, DH doesn't know I'm seeing the counselor tomorrow. Is that okay? Am I making things worse by not telling him? I've mentioned it in the past and he's gotten upset or tried to tell me it'll be useless or tell me that I should be leaning on him, not anyone else.

It's covered by insurance, so I'd only be paying the $10 copay, but he could find out about it since he runs our benefits program for his company.

 

[meandtheguys2]

What you might want to focus on is your behavior rather than your DH's. It is a problem of a unit (you and your husband) not just your husband's issue. It is really easy to blame all of our problems on other's, but a counseling session is not meant to be a "rag" session. You can't change your DH, but need to focus on yourself.

At least something to think about.

 

[DisneyLovingMama]

What I hope to focus on is my response to those behaviors. I'm writing down his action so I can discuss how they make me feel and if those feelings are appropriate.

 

[Sleepy]

When she finally gets brave enough to confront him and she gets "real" serious about it, he actually breaks down and pretends like he has no idea what he does. She is then never able to get anywhere with him because he will never acknowledge the behavior.

Example........Upon getting out of the car and walking toward the store to make a furniture payment, spouse hands paperwork to me (he had nothing in his hands). I hand it right back (I don't want to hold it, this is why I carry everything in my purse). He looks at me like I have a 3rd eye and gets loud in the parking lot...."Would it hurt you to hold it?" I respond "Would it hurt YOU to hold it?" You would think I had spat in his eye. He ran off ahead of me as if I did not exist. Even with something so simple....... Confrontation=lack of aknowledged behavior

 

[meandtheguys2]

What I hope to focus on is my response to those behaviors. I'm writing down his action so I can discuss how they make me feel and if those feelings are appropriate.

Sorry I misunderstood. You would not believe the folks who trailed into my ofc. with a list of problems of their spouse or child, as though I could wave a magic wand, fix it and make all otf their problems go away!