WWYD - Quit or get paid under the table?

[kimkoz]

No I would never take under the table money.

I'd take the unemployment and re think my options - My own business or something different.

I'm with past posters - It's unethical for me to take or hand out business cards to your employers current customers. She earned these customers and they are hers. However business wise there are ways around this but it should be done in the right way. Personally I think communication should start with her. Possibility of a joint partnership, or buy out is an option. Seek advice!

For me in this situation - I'd walk away, take my time to think and start from there. If this is something I personally would love to continue then I'd seek the help from unemployement or other services on how to start my own business. Personally I'd talk to the employer see her future plans and talk a buy out of her customer list.

Good luck

 

[JAMIESMITH]

I wouldn't work under the table. In Mississippi you can collect unemployment as long as you do not make minimum wage while you are layed off. I would definitely check with your state's unemployment board to see if they offer any assistance to you while starting a business. Mississippi has programs to send the unemployed back to school and some of the colleges here offer help to new business owners.

 

[ccgirl]

Well my life has more twists than a pretzel lately, and my boss just added some more!
I work for a pet sitting business. Mostly mid-day visits for folks who are at work, but some vacationers too. I've been working for this woman for almost 6 years. We've had our ups and downs and disagreements on schedules, days off, etc. I don't get paid for any days off or sick days - which incidentally, I have never called in sick. There is the business owner who still does limited pet sitting (she has two small children now), another woman who did weekends and evenings and is quitting right after Christmas, and myself. After learning that the other person is quitting, my boss informed me today that she is thinking of scaling the business back to just mid-day visits and occasional cat vacationers. Basically, she was telling me that she was laying me off. She said she would lay me off and asked me if I would still do jobs under the table while I was collecting unemployment. T-w-i-s-t!!! That is what my insides did as she was telling me this. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to collect unemployment and get paid under the table - right? I also know that many people probably do it, but that doesn't make it right.I have a couple options here:
1. I can let her lay me off and collect unemployment and get paid under the table to do occasional jobs.
2. I can get laid off and collect unemployment and not do any jobs while I look for another job or figure out what I am going to do.
3. I can contact all of the clients that I have been pet sitting for through her business and let them know that I am leaving her employment but would like to continue visiting with their dogs. I wouldn't charge as much money as she does because I do not get the full payment from the clients anyway.
4. I could open my own pet sitting business, still taking some of the clients with me if they wanted to stay with me. This would probably entail insurances of some type, getting bonded, setting up business accounts, working morning, noon, night, weekends, holidays, etc. My daughter has a full time job, but she has expressed interest in working for me if I did this.

Guess that's all the options I've come up with so far. My heart is breaking as I have grown so attached to these dogs that it's like they are my pets too. Now I won't be seeing them anymore. Not to mention that this is a very bad time of year to be out of a job - just spent oodles on Christmas gifts for the kiddies. Just experienced a large vet bill for my goldie to get an emergency operation. Just not a good time for this kind of news.

I am just thinking out loud here with the post, but I would appreciate some input - I need all the suggestions I can get!

Actually, it is illegal to work under the table. Period. But, as you say many people do it. When on unemployment you have to report all income earned.

Good luck. I know, from experience, it is not easy losing your job.

 

[timmac]

Depending on your state laws, working part time (e.g. contract) while collecting unemployment may be perfectly legal, as long as your properly report your income each week. I'm only speaking from my experience in NH, but for a period of time I was able to get unemployment even while making a few bucks here and there doing odd jobs. Over a certain threshold for each week, and my benefits would be reduced a bit that week, but it was always in such a way that I overall had more money in pocket by working a bit, rather than not.

If you're worried about legality of under the table payment, you could always have her write you out a 1099 at the end of the year for your payments (which she could then deduct herself), which you'd have to claim on your taxes.

 

[rock_doctor]

Would there be anything wrong with starting up your new "pet-sitting" business while you are collecting unemployment?

Can you "quickly" print up business cards to hand out? YES - you can - Avery makes "printable" business cards, and they have easy to use templates on their website.

Go for it!

That is what i would do. Just because the business is closing the doors does not mean you can't start your own. After all you are supposed to look for work while on unemployment, i would imagine that includes starting your own business. Make up your own cards with your personal phone number and start handing them out. If you love the dogs then it is safe that the dog's humans also love you and would like to keep you there. Good luck.

 

[mrsklamc]

When I suggested the OP take on some of her bosses clientele, I meant clients the boss would no longer be serving. From the wording, I assumed she meant she was intentionally cutting back on business, not that she was forced to cut down on employees but keep the same number of clients.

 

[seashoreCM]

Don't work under the table. If you are laid off, just apply for unemployment normally.

Be sure not to resign which could disqualify you for unemployment. Be laid off instead.

Don't hand out business cards to or otherwise solicit your employer's clients. You may let your employer know you are starting your own business and that you are not going to talk one one one to her clients about your new business. Don't say anything (but rather let her think on her own) about referring any of her clients to you if she chooses to.

You could include in your application form you hand out to new clients the question "How did you hear of us?" with 4 to 6 multiple choices such as "Internet", "Supermarket bulletin board", etc. and also a blank for "Other". If you don't have enough choices in mind you can include a few irrelevant ones such as "Supermarket bulletin board" even though you never put any ads there.

In some states you must report any earnings (including receipts minus expenses from self employment) to the unemployment office every 2 weeks or so. They then figure out whether you made enough to reduce your unemployment benefits. I do not think you have to report the results of personal belongings* sold in a yard sale or Craig's List although this varies by state.

*When you subtract out what you bought the item for (the basis) you will probably end up with a loss on that item anyway.

 

[EllenFrasier]

OP here. Well I talked to her today and told her that I would not work under the table while collecting unemployment. She thought the only reason I would not do it was because I was afraid of getting caught. I straightened her out and told her that I could not, in good conscience, collect unemployment while getting paid by her under the table. I told her that I thought it was dishonest - not that I was calling her dishonest, but that I thought it was dishonest to do that. I guess it didn't sink in because even after we went over lots of junk, she still came back to that and said I could still get jobs from her if I needed money while I was on unemployment.
She still has not made up her mind about whether this is the way she is going to go - lay me off and do the jobs I was doing herself. I asked her when she would know and she said she had to check and see when her liability insurance payments was due because there was no point in paying the premium if she was not going to have employees anymore. Not sure if that is on an annual basis or what, but I have the feeling that the premium is due the first of the year which means I will soon be out of a job.
Lots of dishonestly on her part and I feel betrayed. A part of me wants to quit, but I don't want to jeopardize my unemployment.
For those that said don't try to take her clients, she earned them. Well she might have signed them up when they called her for services, but I have been visiting with some of these dogs for years. They are my buddies and the owners trust me - they do not see anything of my boss. I have thought it over though, and if I offer my services to them, it will be at the same price. I will collect the sales tax and open a business myself once I get everything together I will report the sales tax. That is, if I decide I want to to that. I feel I owe these pet owners an opportunity to keep the pet sitter that their pets trust and that they trust in their homes if they want to. If they want to stick with my boss, so be it. I do not think that is dishonest at all - I will not be badmouthing my boss or anything like that.
Thanks for all your opinions and help. It does help to see things a different way sometimes.

 

[disneyofcourse]

For those that said don't try to take her clients, she earned them. Well she might have signed them up when they called her for services, but I have been visiting with some of these dogs for years. They are my buddies and the owners trust me - they do not see anything of my boss. I have thought it over though, and if I offer my services to them, it will be at the same price. I will collect the sales tax and open a business myself once I get everything together I will report the sales tax. That is, if I decide I want to to that. I feel I owe these pet owners an opportunity to keep the pet sitter that their pets trust and that they trust in their homes if they want to. If they want to stick with my boss, so be it. I do not think that is dishonest at all - I will not be badmouthing my boss or anything like that.
Thanks for all your opinions and help. It does help to see things a different way sometimes. [/QUOTE]



Yes, You have been visiting these pets but it is her business and her clients. If she wants to sell you a client list, go for it. If she no longer wants these clients and she said you can have then, go for it. Just don't go around taking the clients that she earned and that she advertised for by giving them your business cards. No you won't be bad mouthing, just stealing. If you hand out your cards without discussing it with your boss then you are trying to steal company property. The client list is part of her business, not yours. You can advertise yourself and hope clients come to you from your advertisement.

 

[poohfriend]

OP is providing a service. Things may not be as complicated as they appear and each state has its own laws that would govern her choice to start her own business.

On the surface it doesn't appear to be any different to me than when I responded to a direct mail piece to try out a new hair salon at a great rate. When i got to the salon, the owner assigned me to Tonya. Tonya did a great job with my hair and I became a regular. (Benefit to the Salon and Tonya.) A year later Tonya broke away from that salon, but quietly let me know she was leaving to start her own salon and gave me her home phone number. (She didn't call me, but allowed me to make the choice.) Salon lost me as a client because the reason I returned to the Salon was because of Tonya. 7 years later, Tonya still cuts my hair.

OP has a relationship with these pets. The owner of the pets gets to decide if they wish to go with a start-up company or a new sitter with the current service.

I think if it were me, I'd let the current pet owners know my home phone. I'd let them know that I am being laid off and had a desire to continue working with pets. Explore you options and don't make a "rush" decision.

 

[ceecee]

Would there be anything wrong with starting up your new "pet-sitting" business while you are collecting unemployment?

Can you "quickly" print up business cards to hand out? YES - you can - Avery makes "printable" business cards, and they have easy to use templates on their website.

Go for it!

 

[disneyofcourse]

OP is providing a service. Things may not be as complicated as they appear and each state has its own laws that would govern her choice to start her own business.

On the surface it doesn't appear to be any different to me than when I responded to a direct mail piece to try out a new hair salon at a great rate. When i got to the salon, the owner assigned me to Tonya. Tonya did a great job with my hair and I became a regular. (Benefit to the Salon and Tonya.) A year later Tonya broke away from that salon, but quietly let me know she was leaving to start her own salon and gave me her home phone number. (She didn't call me, but allowed me to make the choice.) Salon lost me as a client because the reason I returned to the Salon was because of Tonya. 7 years later, Tonya still cuts my hair.

OP has a relationship with these pets. The owner of the pets gets to decide if they wish to go with a start-up company or a new sitter with the current service.

I think if it were me, I'd let the current pet owners know my home phone. I'd let them know that I am being laid off and had a desire to continue working with pets. Explore you options and don't make a "rush" decision.

Each state has different laws, you are correct. Your hair stylist "Quietly" let you know because the owner could probably take her to court for damages caused by lost business. The business spent its money advertising to get that client, it is leasing its location, it is paying for supplies, etc. That client information is part of the company and can be sold, kept or given away. The client can go find the hair stylist but usually its very frowned upon(not allowed/fired on the spot) to hand over her own card for her own business. It also depends on if she was renting her space(Contractor) or they were paying her as an employee. If she was renting her space, paying for her own shampoo, lease, advertising, insurance, cards then you are her client and not the overhead company. If she signed a non-compete form and stole clients then the owner could turn around and sue her. One of my girl friends is a hair stylist and the last person to steal clients got a letter from a lawyer to stop immediately or they'd go after her for damages. They had a non-compete signed. She had apparently printed out client information and sent out coupons to use her service. Because she was stealing client information and company knowledge to start her own shop they were going stop it.


Look at it this way. You start a pet sitting business and gain 500 clients over many years. One of your employees decides to start her own business. You stop getting calls from clients who used you for years. Soon you look at your records and find half of them gone and start calling them. You find out your employee has been giving clients her card and maybe even charging a couple dollars less. That company that YOU spent all that time and money on is now not as profitable and your having issues paying your bills because of it. You have to now spend more money and time on advertising and training a new employee. Do you feel like that employee stole from you?


Even though in the OP's situation the owner is downsizing it doesn't mean that she is giving away client information. I say just talk with the owner OP and figure out a happy medium were you can maybe pay for some of the clients information. Just don't work under the table(Not much light under there lol)

 

[poohfriend]

Each state has different laws, you are correct. Your hair stylist "Quietly" let you know because the owner could probably take her to court for damages caused by lost business. The business spent its money advertising to get that client, it is leasing its location, it is paying for supplies, etc. That client information is part of the company and can be sold, kept or given away. The client can go find the hair stylist but usually its very frowned upon(not allowed/fired on the spot) to hand over her own card for her own business. It also depends on if she was renting her space(Contractor) or they were paying her as an employee. If she was renting her space, paying for her own shampoo, lease, advertising, insurance, cards then you are her client and not the overhead company. If she signed a non-compete form and stole clients then the owner could turn around and sue her. One of my girl friends is a hair stylist and the last person to steal clients got a letter from a lawyer to stop immediately or they'd go after her for damages. They had a non-compete signed. She had apparently printed out client information and sent out coupons to use her service. Because she was stealing client information and company knowledge to start her own shop they were going stop it.


Look at it this way. You start a pet sitting business and gain 500 clients over many years. One of your employees decides to start her own business. You stop getting calls from clients who used you for years. Soon you look at your records and find half of them gone and start calling them. You find out your employee has been giving clients her card and maybe even charging a couple dollars less. That company that YOU spent all that time and money on is now not as profitable and your having issues paying your bills because of it. You have to now spend more money and time on advertising and training a new employee. Do you feel like that employee stole from you?


Even though in the OP's situation the owner is downsizing it doesn't mean that she is giving away client information. I say just talk with the owner OP and figure out a happy medium were you can maybe pay for some of the clients information. Just don't work under the table(Not much light under there lol)

If the OP had no agreement with the owner or lacked a non-compete clause, the OP is free to start her own business. I do agree that there is a fine line between the OP starting her own business and trying to steal another's. However, I think there are ethical ways to compete.

And in my case, Tonya paid for her own supplies and rented her station. She had no non-compete clause
She brought her own "book of business" to the salon when she came; she took her book when she left. The "quietly" in my case was to say she literally did not talk loud enough for everyone in the salon to hear her. She didn't mail things to my house, she allowed me to write down her home number in case i wanted to reach her.

I agree that the OP should continue to talk with the owner about her plans for the existing clients she won't be able to service.

 

[mrspaha]

I can't comment on the unemployment benefit issue; but my concern would be if you were to start your own business, and you wanted to do everything honestly and ethically, etc, it seems to me that you need to really look at the new costs you will have. I would think in most states you have to get a business license and you will have to get some kind of business owners insurance. I would DEFINITELY check with an insurance agent to get an idea of how much your liability insurance would be. Insurance is so expensive these days, and it could severely cut into your income.

 

[changeitup10]

In my experience, you should not work UNDER THE TABLE unless it's just downright necessary to make the cash or - in my case - the personal checks from your grandmother.

The other people at work won't be able to keep it a secret or to deal with it, you'll end up getting burnt, so don't.

Go online, find a real job, and just go, be you...

 

[Mama Who]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think #3 is completely unethical. Well, I guess #4 is too.
Just my opinion.

Why don't you tell her that since she is thinking about cutting back, you would like to take the rest in as clients and start your own business. Maybe she'd help make the transition easier. Also, maybe she's cutting back because it's difficult for her to make it finacially. If that's the case, charging less may not be helpful to you. Also, if you do go into this as a business, make sure you have the proper insurances and business license. You could lose alot with one mishap.

Undercutting her and stealing her clients because she is letting you go is just .. wrong. Talk to her.

3 and 4 may not be unethical. It sounds like the business owner is laying the OP off because she's reducing her client load. If it's all out in the open and the OP is taking the clients that the employer no longer wishes to service anyway, that would be fine. I agree that poaching clients is wrong, but this set of circumstances may be one in which it's not really poaching.

Working under the table can put you in the position of not only losing unemployment benefits, but potentially having to pay back fraudulently collected monies. Bad idea. Illegal. I would not go there.

 

[kathie859]

I imagine the OP worked this out by now....the thread is from 2011.