WWYD? Pay Issue....

[MomToOne]

I found out today they my company "accidentally" classified me in a lower pay range than I was supposed to be at about 2 years ago when they did a mass pay range restructuring. 2 male co-workers with titles equivalent to mine but who were under a different manager were classified correctly.

I am the top producer in my group BY FAR but my manager doesn't especially like me. She is civil to me, but not much more than that. Several times I questioned the fact that I was bumping the top of (my lower than it should have been) pay range, and she would just shrug her shoulders and say that that's where HR set it, there was nothing she could do. She never questioned HR about it, hence them not realizing something was wrong. Quite frankly, I believe she was happy to have any convenient excuse to limit my raises.

Anyway, my company is now "researching" the proper pay scale for me and is saying they MAY adjust my salary. But they need to make sure the job description is updated, etc. first. After thinking about things and doing some googling, I want to go into HR tomorrow and say there is no MAY about it - they WILL be adjusting my salary and WILL be doing it retroactively. If they do not (which I wouldn't put past this company to try to do), I will file a gender pay discrimination complaint, based on the fact that my male co-workers with equivalent titles have apparently been paid correctly the entire time. The one complicating factor is that while the 2 male co-workers have equivalent titles, they are not exactly the same - we are all classified as "leads" but all in different areas of Software Development (one in testing, one in development, one in business analysis) - we all work on the same systems though, and should all have the same salary range classification in our company, but each flavor of the title will have a slighty different pay range based on current market prices for that title.

But I tend not to have the coolest of heads at times - am I going too far??

(Obviously, 2 years of back pay at what I estimate to be 10-15% of my base salary would help my Disney budget...)

 

[3boymthr]

No, based upon what you are writing here I'd say you are not wrong but be prepared for some backlash AND make sure that you have all your facts correct and in writing from a reputable source (i.e., department of labor website) before you threaten them.

ETA - I personally would let my cooler head prevail and wait to see what they say first. Which may be what you want and in which case you'd be totally shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Pakey]

You googled a few things and are willing to risk your job before you even let them figure it out?

To prove gender discrimination, you have to prove that the reason your pay is lower is because you are a woman. Not that it's a mistake or that your manager doesn't like you. Are you sure your pay is lower strictly because you are female?

I'm in upper management and HR is a division under my control. Does the company have a history of doing this? What proof are you going to present to the dept of labor?

I can't answer these questions since I don't know your company, pay scales, job descriptions, etc. I would just advise you to get more information before making threats to your employer.

 

[MomToOne]

You googled a few things and are willing to risk your job before you even let them figure it out?

To prove gender discrimination, you have to prove that the reason your pay is lower is because you are a woman. Not that it's a mistake or that your manager doesn't like you. Are you sure your pay is lower strictly because you are female?

I'm in upper management and HR is a division under my control. Does the company have a history of doing this? What proof are you going to present to the dept of labor?

I can't answer these questions since I don't know your company, pay scales, job descriptions, etc. I would just advise you to get more information before making threats to your employer.

The issue isn't that they made the mistake, the issue is that they are saying they only MAY correct it, not that they will. Now that the issue has been identified and they are aware of it, they have the obligation to correct it, don't they? And if they don't, and continue to pay the males on a different scale than me, isn't it at that point gender discrimination?

And if they fire me for filing a complaint and letting it go through proper process, then don't I have yet another claim I can make against them for wrongful termination?

 

[TLuvsD]

Document everything, go look for old documents of the proper pay scale (search email etc). Print out all applicable documents--and take them home. Wait for the company to correct things. If you have to send any written communication/response to the issues stay calm and write the letter as though a third party was reviewing the information (ie I trust the HR department will expedite the review of all materials to correct this error....blah blah).

Give them a reasonable time to respond. Then do what you need to do.

 

[cmwade77]

I would say wait and see what they say, if they say that you are right, but do not offer to make it retroactive, ask them to do so.

But prior to that conversation, I would check the law in you state for the following things:
How far back can you go with a gender discrimination complaint? (Apparently some states are only 6 months, most are 1-2 years though)
What does your state define gender discrimination as?
What is the average salary for your exact title and the other two titles at other companies that do the same kind of business in your state? (the closer to you, the better)
Does your state make the employer pay you penalties? (For example, in California, they would be required to pay you for 8 hours of work for everyday your check or a portion thereof is late. I think there may be awxomim dollar amount and/or number of hours, but the law is there to copensate for situations just like this and to prevent employers from paying late.)
How much interest or returns could you have earned with that money? (They should definitely be paying interest on the money, as it should have been yours)

I would also suggest asking yourself if you are willing to lose your job over it. No, they can't fire you for filing a gender discrimination complaint or lawsuit, but they could try to find ANY other reason to do so if you make too big of a stink. One of the reasons that I think you should wait until they make you an offer, they know there's a potential lawsuit here and are probably discussing with their lawyers how to avoid it. You could offer to sign an agreement that if they give you back pay and raise your salary that you won't sue. This mug help your cause, but I don't know, it could hurt it too depending on the company, so you would be the best judge of that

So bottom line is I would be kind, but firm about what I expect and I would try to make my expectations match state, federal and local laws.

 

[cmwade77]

Document everything, go look for old documents of the proper pay scale (search email etc). Print out all applicable documents--and take them home. Wait for the company to correct things. If you have to send any written communication/response to the issues stay calm and write the letter as though a third party was reviewing the information (ie I trust the HR department will expedite the review of all materials to correct this error....blah blah).

Give them a reasonable time to respond. Then do what you need to do.

I do agree that you need to give a reasonable amount of time for them to respond, I would say 48 hours (not including weekend
or holidays) is substantial.

Now some other things to consider:
Do the other people have more experience?
Do they have more seniority?
Do they have more people that they supervise? (Bu the way, in most states, If you don't supervise multiple
People, I think the minimum is three, then you have to be paid overtime)
Are there any other reasons they might legitimately deserve a higher pay scale than you?

 

[MomToOne]

I do agree that you need to give a reasonable amount of time for them to respond, I would say 48 hours (not including weekend
or holidays) is substantial.

Now some other things to consider:
Do the other people have more experience?

No. We are all fairly equivalent. But our titles are based on merit, not years of experience. [I'm going to switch from using "pay range" here to "salary band", it might help a bit (or it might not!)] Our salary bands are then turn based on our titles.

Think of it as there are salary bands I, II, III, IV and V. Everyone with a lead title was supposed to be in a salary band IV. The actual low and high values of a band may be different for the developer vs. the tester vs. the business analyst based on the current market rates for those jobs, but we should all be in what is considered a band IV. (I know, confusing, right???) But somehow, they associated band III with me, instead of IV. The company is horribly non-transparent in these matters, so there was no way for me to determine they had made a mistake. All I got when they re-did the banding was a letter saying "you are in band III, the bottom of this range is x, the top of this range is y". They didn't publish any general information on the bands, which titles fell into which bands, etc. So there was no way for me to catch the error, although I did repeatedly state to my manager and even HR at least once that I felt the low and high values for the range were unrealistic and not in step with the market for my title....

Do they have more seniority?

No. But it doesn't matter - see the above. It's a completely merit-based environment, no union, etc.

Do they have more people that they supervise? (Bu the way, in most states, If you don't supervise multiple
People, I think the minimum is three, then you have to be paid overtime)

None of us directly supervise people - we are expected to be the ultimate experts in the area we work in, and a reference for everyone else on the team and everyone else in the company when they have questions. And while we help manage the work of the team, we don't have anyone officially reporting to us.

Also, since we work in software development, where basically all the roles are exempt (the federal law includes this exemption), there is no overtime for anyone.

Are there any other reasons they might legitimately deserve a higher pay scale than you?

See first answer - they may fall higher within the band than I do, and their flavor of the band may have a different low and high value, so they can end up higher paid than me, but we all should be in the same band number since we all have the same "lead" title. My problem is that I was put in a lower band than them, not that I was not paid as much as them.

 

[MomToOne]

I would say wait and see what they say, if they say that you are right, but do not offer to make it retroactive, ask them to do so.

But prior to that conversation, I would check the law in you state for the following things:
How far back can you go with a gender discrimination complaint? (Apparently some states are only 6 months, most are 1-2 years though)
What does your state define gender discrimination as?
What is the average salary for your exact title and the other two titles at other companies that do the same kind of business in your state? (the closer to you, the better)
Does your state make the employer pay you penalties? (For example, in California, they would be required to pay you for 8 hours of work for everyday your check or a portion thereof is late. I think there may be awxomim dollar amount and/or number of hours, but the law is there to copensate for situations just like this and to prevent employers from paying late.)
How much interest or returns could you have earned with that money? (They should definitely be paying interest on the money, as it should have been yours)

I would also suggest asking yourself if you are willing to lose your job over it. No, they can't fire you for filing a gender discrimination complaint or lawsuit, but they could try to find ANY other reason to do so if you make too big of a stink. One of the reasons that I think you should wait until they make you an offer, they know there's a potential lawsuit here and are probably discussing with their lawyers how to avoid it. You could offer to sign an agreement that if they give you back pay and raise your salary that you won't sue. This mug help your cause, but I don't know, it could hurt it too depending on the company, so you would be the best judge of that

So bottom line is I would be kind, but firm about what I expect and I would try to make my expectations match state, federal and local laws.

Good input. I am in is California, where labor laws are a bit more favorable to the individual employee than other states. I have lots of documentation and several recruiters that will get me the current pay rates at other companies in the area. I should have no problem showing the current market rate for the various positions in question.

And while I don't relish the idea of leaving my job, the market has heated up to the point that I believe I could pretty easily get an equivalent paying job. The company would also have a hard uphill battle trying to claim they fired me for cause after some recent project assignments they've given me that clearly show I am the "go to" person (long story). Not that over time they couldn't try and break me (as a company they are very good at that), but it would take enough time that I could find another job before it happens.....

 

[tvguy]

You have a tough situation. I can see where you have a couple of problems. First being you don't work for the same supervisor and aren't doing the same job. "Equivalent" can be hard to prove.
Second, if I was the two other folks, I'd be screaming bloody murder if I found out HR had released my salary information to you. I am assuming since all are Exempt employees, that you are not covered by a union contract with public pay scale information. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I hope your company does the right thing. Another thing, I've never worked anywhere where HR had anything to do with pay levels. They just deal with labor law. Department heads handle all the salaries.

I had an age discrimnation issue come up in a past job. Two realities prevented me from taking legal action. First, a discrimination case can take 10 to 12 years to resolve in the courts. Second, filing that suit would have made be virtually unemployable in my chosen field.

 

[msmayor]

If you truly believe you are in the wrong band, then argue the merits of your position WITHOUT bringing the salaries of anyone else into the picture.

Its extremely poor judgement to use what anyone else's pay rate and pay level is as evidence that you need to be compensated more.

Stand on the merits of YOUR situation. Bring no one else into the mix.

 

[gert]

Also consider for yourself if you're willing to accept less than the full 2 years of back pay as a negotiation.

Depending on the dollar amount, I. personally, might be willing to accept less than the full amount due to avoid having to retain a lawyer and deal with the potential risk of not winning my case. You may also want to consider non-monetary benefits as a way to be paid back - extra vacation or comp time. So you could offer to accept 1 full year of back pay and an extra week worth of paid vacation days, for example. Put any offer you make to them in writing. If it does come to court or mediation, you'll be able to show that you were willing to work with them if the full 2 years would have put a financial burden on the company.

 

[Disneychix]

We have the same sorts of 'titles' which reflect your salary range where I am, but I can tell you that the developers get paid the most, followed by the BA and lastly QA. Even though the same 'scale' is used BA II, QA V etc. A QA Lead is not equivalent to a DEV Lead.

Also, if your pay was based on raises that were occurring throughout the years how can they retroactivley know what raises you should have recieved?

 

[jedijill]

I would not throw gender out there....at all. I don't think, given the facts you've stated, that gender discrimination occurred here. I have been the lone female making less than my male coworkers (idiot left the salary survey on a printer) and the company made a small adjustment "to make it right" but I ended up just finding a new job and more than made up the difference without burning serious professional bridges. Tech is a small small world...the job market may be hot now but when it cools, the people you nuked with your gender discrimination accusations will remember you....I would be especially careful as software development continues to get outsourced overseas. If HR doesn't make things as close to right as you can accept, I would just shop for a new job. You may end up farther ahead than you are now or will be after an adjustment.

Just my 2 cents as a female working in a male dominated industry.

Jill in CO

 

[Lilliputian]

If you do decide that this is the battle you want to fight, I recommend you just ask (or tell) them and politely wait to see if they'll do it. Don't play the gender discrimination card until you decide that you absolutely have to. Companies don't like having to defend themselves in that type of suit, and they don't really like having the type of employees who file them. They aren't allowed to retaliate, but you'll be on a very short leash, and every mistake you make will be documented in the future.

I would try to "catch more flies with honey than vinegar" before you escalate the issue.

 

[MrsPete]

A mistake was made. Whether it was genuinely accidental or done with foul intentions, you can never know. If you address it as, "Oh, this bad thing has happened, and I am sure you're going to make it right. Thank you so much." you're likely to be seen as a reasonable person who's willing to work with the company to see the right thing done. In contrast, if you come in with both barrels blazing, screaming discrimination, HR is likely to dig in their heels and look for ways to NOT make this happen.

If the mistake turns out to be genuine, it really was HR that did it -- not your supervisor -- so I'd try to let go of that part of the equation. She's not the one who pays you. She's really not involved. Even if she dislikes you, that's not something that you can quantify or prove, so it's best to leave that out altogether.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the word "may". If the mistake proves to be real, they HAVE TO fix it. I suspect the word "may" was simply a slip of the tounge or a way of indicating that it may not be fixed by the end of this week. Researching the mistake isn't going to be a 15-minute job.

You have a right to be upset that a mistake of this magnitude went on for so long, but you have more to gain by being nice and adopting an "Of course the problem will be fixed" attitude. You have nothing to gain by storming into HR and making demands or threats.

 

[TammyAlphabet]

The issue isn't that they made the mistake, the issue is that they are saying they only MAY correct it, not that they will. Now that the issue has been identified and they are aware of it, they have the obligation to correct it, don't they? And if they don't, and continue to pay the males on a different scale than me, isn't it at that point gender discrimination?

And if they fire me for filing a complaint and letting it go through proper process, then don't I have yet another claim I can make against them for wrongful termination?

Get a notebook and write down everything. Who said what, when and everything you can think of.

 

[MomToOne]

Second, if I was the two other folks, I'd be screaming bloody murder if I found out HR had released my salary information to you. I am assuming since all are Exempt employees, that you are not covered by a union contract with public pay scale information. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I hope your company does the right thing. Another thing, I've never worked anywhere where HR had anything to do with pay levels. They just deal with labor law. Department heads handle all the salaries.

They did not release individual salary info to me, only the band numbers. The job title-salary band mappings has been open information in most of the organizations I've worked in before. This company however seems to avoid any and all transparency.

Because of the company wide re-banding, HR was very involved in setting everyone's bands. It was the managers job to ensure they were appropriate and HR didn't make any errors but my manager is the sort that will not dispute anything. I also honestly believe that she didn't want me to be in the proper salary band because she would have seen it as a threat to her own status in the company. If only I could tell everyone all of the really messed up stuff that has gone on at this company, you'd all be floored...

 

[Anthony1971]

As some others have said approach it nicely and see where it goes and what the explinations and or offers are.
A lawyer will cost you a lot of money and you will likely not get what you think in the end even if you did win. I have seen enough people try to bring cases and dropped them quickly and the others that went on for years and ended up with under 10K settelments. Take lawyers fees out and what do you have....
If you remotly threaten a lawsuit you will be shut out from all without a lawyer and still have the same pay and will likley loss your job for other reasons... in other words if you plan on working there you better follow the handbook to a T and expect NO consideration for anything... Your hours are -- you better be there.. your lunch break is-- better show it.... late for any reason get a warning......... 3 you are out...does not matter if you worked to 10 last night to finish your work.
also remeber the vacation dates you want can be denied...
Please do not be a hot head it will get you no where.

 

[somanykids]

First off, deep breath. Secondly, HR probably used the word "may" because they have to. Anything other than that would be a hard promise that there was a mistake and it will be fixed. They can't do that without doing the research first. This is probably not going to be something that is going to get fixed in a matter of hours. I work for a very large institution where everyone's pay is public. My counterpart (also a "lead") gets paid slightly higher than I do because he supervises actual people but we are both within the same pay band, so I get what you are saying about that.

This is an opportunity for you to show the people in your company that even though a mistake was made against you, you can maintain a professional attitude and deal with it accordingly. There is no reason to assume that this was done intentionally or to assume that HR won't fix it. I would follow up with them in a week to see where they are in the process if you haven't heard anything by then.