WWYD? Concerned

[mmackeymouse]

But, I actually thought Firedancer was talking more about the 28 year old who many of us now agree is emotionally in the same place as a 16 year old. I thought he was sort of referring to a DIS poster who was also very sheltered and now struggles to have a relationship with someone her age (or at all). Maybe I am reading too much between the lines though.

No, I caught it too.

Be that as it may...

I am on the record in this thread multiple times at saying I find it completely weird and completely inappropriate.

In my wildest dreams, I cannot imagine hanging out with a teenager who I'm not related to, ever so often in a PUBLIC setting, much less frequently and in a private one.

I'm pretty lax when it comes to age differences, but when one party has a job and establishing their life and the other is in their teens...I don't think "Age is just a number" is so simple.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I haven't been following the latest comments....

I do know that the OP more recently posted that her son was now very much at odds with her/his family, and their religious viewpoints, while this woman seems very, very, strict and controlled.



I am not quite sure whether this woman meets the criteria to acceptable as a 'Gothard Girl' or not.
But, it sounds like she is much closer than other girls he has had the opportunity to meet.
He seems happy with their 'religious connection'.
While becoming less so with his mother/family.

If it has not been discussed that this adult woman's influence could be a big factor in this, and the fact that this seems to have become an issue between this 14-15-16 year old child and his mother and family, then I think something major is being missed here.

Look, I am not totally defending the adult here or thinking everything is perfectly fine with the relationship, but I am also not seeing the gloom doom "pedophile" you are seeing.

I see nothing in the OPs posts to indicate that her son is upset over being stuck between two worlds BECAUSE of this woman. From the outside looking in I could catch that, before OP mentioned it, just by reading his situation with the churches and school OUTSIDE of ANYTHING to do with the 28 year old.

I can imagine that the OP and her husband ended up putting their son in this position totally inadvertently, but it happened none the less and I can imagine that at times a teen boy would feel resentful about that but still not be "at odds with his family and their religious viewpoint"

I think you are adding a LOT of drama in your tone and thoughts that is simply not there in the OPs posts and probably not in reality either.

 

[NHdisneylover]

No, I caught it too.

Be that as it may...

I am on the record in this thread multiple times at saying I find it completely weird and completely inappropriate.

In my wildest dreams, I cannot imagine hanging out with a teenager who I'm not related to, ever so often in a PUBLIC setting, much less frequently and in a private one.

I'm pretty lax when it comes to age differences, but when one party has a job and establishing their life and the other is in their teens...I don't think "Age is just a number" is so simple.

To be fair, the OP did not post anything to indicate that her son and this woman are spending time together in a private setting (other than when the woman came over for dinner WITH the family at the OP's invitation, I guess). She said they go to museums, out to lunch, etc.

and to be fair again, the 28 year old woman in this case does not really "have a job" and is not really "establish(ing) their life" She is only permitted to work part time and only for a relative and is not permitted to live outside the home, etc. She is basically treated like a child even at 28 and has always been treated as such.


That said, at this point I think the thing I am most confused about is how it is happening that this woman's family is okay with her spending all of this time alone with a young male

As I understand the Gothard teachings, that would be highly inappropriate and no one would allow a daughter to spend unchaperoned time with a young man, and even as an adult she is subject to her parent's rules until she moves out (ie gets married).

Maybe OP's son had not nit puberty yet when he did the volunteer work and looked like a little kid to them when they met him and they are still visualizing a "kid" and seeing their daughter as a mentor to a child and not seeing peer relationship (though clearly the woman and OPs son are treating it as such)?

Maybe the woman is not being truthful with her family about where she goes? But it seems like it would get back to them pretty easily.

Or, I think it is possible the family is worried this daughter will never be married off and are seeing this as a last chance for that and would rather have a dicey start and a married daughter than one who remains unwed forever, so they are turning a blind eye in the hopes that once he is 18 OPs son does indeed decide to marry her.

I think it could be any of those and yet the two participant could still just be two lonely people who bond over that loneliness and a shared faith and are not doing anything truly inappropriate. I am just chocked, given how many people out in the less sheltered and less religious world would view this relationship with a lot of suspicion (just read the posts on this thread!) and how that would normally be 10 times more the case with in the very conservative religious group, that the two are not seeing it more and not being pressured to end this, or be chaperoned, or anything from every possible side.

 

[ronandannette]

Look, I am not totally defending the adult here or thinking everything is perfectly fine with the relationship, but I am also not seeing the gloom doom "pedophile" you are seeing.

I see nothing in the OPs posts to indicate that her son is upset over being stuck between two worlds BECAUSE of this woman. From the outside looking in I could catch that, before OP mentioned it, just by reading his situation with the churches and school OUTSIDE of ANYTHING to do with the 28 year old.

I can imagine that the OP and her husband ended up putting their son in this position totally inadvertently, but it happened none the less and I can imagine that at times a teen boy would feel resentful about that but still not be "at odds with his family and their religious viewpoint"

I think you are adding a LOT of drama in your tone and thoughts that is simply not there in the OPs posts and probably not in reality either.

I do agree with Wishing (and this might be a first!!) that any influence that undermines parental authority of a young person is problematic and bears closer monitoring. But I also see your points Hadley, and the whole Gothard thing brings this situation into an entirely different dimension. It is possible that regardless of their ages, both of them see THE BOY as the "authority and leader" in the relationship. That dramatically shifts the balance of power doesn't it? Now, of course, who among us would want to be "led" by and submitted to a child? Certainly not me but then I'm not a Gothardite. It would be consistent with their beliefs though (and definitely would be the expectation of the OP's DS for any relationship he would want to have).

 

[Wishing on a star]

Sorry, NHDisneylover, but I never posted anything even remotely close to gloom-and-doom or pedophile....

And, I also will not apologize for posting my thoughts....

There is absolutely NO doubt that this whole thing is inappropriate.
No doubt, at all, whatsoever....

I don't care if this woman is personally and socially behind, stunted, immature, or whatever...

The fact is that, the OP's son has been seeing this woman for years, texting, phone calls, personal meetings, etc... And there has been absolutely no mention of a group, work, church, etc... There has been no mention of any other mutual friends... They do not seem to have visited each others churches, homes, etc...

It sounds as if this boy has known this woman for a number of years now, and the OP is just now even meeting her, getting to know her, etc....

It has all been about a one-on-one intimate relationship between someone well into adulthood (no matter what the other circumstances) and a child.

Not Okay....
Not Appropriate....

And, the only justification that I am seeing posted here, on the part of this boy and the OP, (and even others) well, since it is religious, then it must be okay. Using religion as a justification is just one more thing that I see as a concern here. Not a positive.

Again, to anyone else here who does not share these views and concerns.
I will try to respectfully disagree.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I do agree with Wishing (and this might be a first!!) that any influence that undermines parental authority of a young person is problematic and bears closer monitoring. But I also see your points Hadley, and the whole Gothard thing brings this situation into an entirely different dimension. It is possible that regardless of their ages, both of them see THE BOY as the "authority and leader" in the relationship. That dramatically shifts the balance of power doesn't it? Now, of course, who among us would want to be "led" by and submitted to a child? Certainly not me but then I'm not a Gothardite. It would be consistent with their beliefs though (and definitely would be the expectation of the OP's DS for any relationship he would want to have).

Oh wow, that is an EXCELLENT point.

It is so hard to think out of our "norm" and see things from the perspectives of those raised so differently, isn't it?

 

[luvsJack]

Sorry, NHDisneylover, but I never posted anything even remotely close to gloom-and-doom or pedophile....

And, I also will not apologize for posting my thoughts....

There is absolutely NO doubt that this whole thing is inappropriate.
No doubt, at all, whatsoever....

I don't care if this woman is personally and socially behind, stunted, immature, or whatever...

The fact is that, the OP's son has been seeing this woman for years, texting, phone calls, personal meetings, etc... And there has been absolutely no mention of a group, work, church, etc... There has been no mention of any other mutual friends... They do not seem to have visited each others churches, homes, etc...

It sounds as if this boy has known this woman for a number of years now, and the OP is just now even meeting her, getting to know her, etc....

It has all been about a one-on-one intimate relationship between someone well into adulthood (no matter what the other circumstances) and a child.

Not Okay....
Not Appropriate....

And, the only justification that I am seeing posted here, on the part of this boy and the OP, (and even others) well, since it is religious, then it must be okay. Using religion as a justification is just one more thing that I see as a concern here. Not a positive.

Again, to anyone else here who does not share these views and concerns.
I will try to respectfully disagree.

What is your definition of a an "intimate" relationship?

 

[Tiggeroo]

What is your definition of a an "intimate" relationship?

intimate relationships don't have to be physical. They also may progress to physical in a weak moment. There is a reason why women often feel emotional affairs are more threatening then physical ones.

 

[luvsJack]

intimate relationships don't have to be physical. They also may progress to physical in a weak moment. There is a reason why women often feel emotional affairs are more threatening then physical ones.

I understand that but I haven't seen anything about this relationship to describe as "intimate". Which is why I asked WOAS for her definition. I just wondered why she kept calling it that.

DD has lots of friends. Friends that she may go out to the movies with or to the mall with; none of them would be described as "intimate" in any sense of the word. Simply spending time together does not fit that definition.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I understand that but I haven't seen anything about this relationship to describe as "intimate". Which is why I asked WOAS for her definition. I just wondered why she kept calling it that.

I would say it is an intimate relationship

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/intimate

especially if we go by something like that which was suggested over the last couple of pages, i.e. the sharing of the commonality of their religion that few others understand or can relate to, etc.

 

[mousears123]

I would not attribute his Gothardism to her, actually. Since he was about 11-12 he has been very much a Gothardite. He has always been religious but at that point seemed to "make a decision" in his spiritual life. I will say it is a bit odd to have your child become more strict about their convictions than their parent is! He, along with a group of other boys, back when they were 11-12 all began saving money towards the purchases of their own homes once they became adults. A big thing in Gothard culture is that you should be able to buy your first home (or build) with absolutely no debt. Boys are encouraged to start working toard this goal when they are young. The point of it is that when you marry, you need to have an already prepared house to give to your bride.
I would also not say he is at odds with us. There IS a spirit of resentment there, but I do not think it is unfounded- the fact is, due to our choices, he WILL have a harder time being approved of by a Gothard girls' family due to our less strict upbringing.
We are talking through this.
He is very repentent of the resentful attitude, he knows that attidtude is not what it should be, but he is having a hard time with quelling it.
We are also communicating better to try to do what we need to do to help him. As he is fast approaching the courting age, if he wishes to stay in the Gothard belief system, he will need to make some decisions about his future, have an internship, train for a business, etc. He will also have to have a house of his own ready before he can marry.
So all in all these decisions were made a few years before he ever met the young lady in question.
If he had only recently made these decisions, then yes, I would question what amount of influence she had over him. Not that she is a bad influence, but simply the AMOUNT of influence.
I do not think it is a bad influence neccessarily- I wouldn't say if she had influenced him toward Gothardism that that was bad. We are proud of his commitment, although it is a little different than how we raised him, we feel he is just showing that he is more faithful than we were at that age.

 

[disney4us2002]

I would say it is an intimate relationship

especially if we go by something like that which was suggested over the last couple of pages, i.e. the sharing of the commonality of their religion that few others understand or can relate to, etc.

I also would call what they have an intimate relationship.

 

[mousears123]

I do agree with Wishing (and this might be a first!!) that any influence that undermines parental authority of a young person is problematic and bears closer monitoring. But I also see your points Hadley, and the whole Gothard thing brings this situation into an entirely different dimension. It is possible that regardless of their ages, both of them see THE BOY as the "authority and leader" in the relationship. That dramatically shifts the balance of power doesn't it? Now, of course, who among us would want to be "led" by and submitted to a child? Certainly not me but then I'm not a Gothardite. It would be consistent with their beliefs though (and definitely would be the expectation of the OP's DS for any relationship he would want to have).

Re-posted yesterday's post. Above, post 191. To reiterate that she is not the one who has been leading him spiritually. He made decisions in the couple years prior to meeting her. I would definitely have a real problem if I thought she was leading him spiritually. They can be close due to sharing their faith but in Gothardism (and I'm sorry if this is offensive to some) women are not meant to be spiritual leaders in relationships. I'm sorry to be so blunt and hope others are not hurt by this.

 

[sbtrfly74]

Just out of curiosity but what do your close friends or family think about the situation? (If you've spoken to them about it)


Just wondering what someone that is more familiar with your son and your religion thinks.

 

[mousears123]

Just out of curiosity but what do your close friends or family think about the situation? (If you've spoken to them about it)


Just wondering what someone that is more familiar with your son and your religion thinks.

None had approached me with it concerned, but in the last few days I've been seeking their counsel. They are not exactly bothered by it, but do think we need to be more closely monitoring them. As others here have suggested, go back to reading his emails etc. Most do group texts with their children's friends so that they receive every text heir child receives.
It is interesting that feelings have changed, many of them said that if he was 14 no one saw any problem with an adult being a friend to him and being a positive influence. But now that he is 16, approaching a courting age, our friends feel that we should treat them as courting (meaning chaperones for every outing!) whether or not they are actually courting. Just to have the supervision. Simply because of the age he has reached.

 

[Disney Doll]

So the kid is 16-18 and somewhat resentful of/at odds with his parents.

This is abnormal how?

He has a 28 female friend who he sees once a week and texts during the week. But he's also spending time with people his own age. Mom and dad met the woman, threw out some statements designed to get a reaction. Son didnt react with jealousy at the thought of 28 year old meeting other males. 28 year old was receptive to meeting other males.

Other than her chronological age, there wouldn't be a problem with this relationship. Her actual level of maturity may be closer to the 17 year old than a 28 year old. She sounds as if shes been, and continues to be, quite sheltered. It sounds like men practicing their religion mature kind of quickly, marry young, have a house and be prepared to be the head of a household.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Sorry, NHDisneylover, but I never posted anything even remotely close to gloom-and-doom or pedophile....

.

I am sorry. Apparently I am not as good as interpreting what you mean as I am at interpreting Fire Dancer in this thread

Can you please tell me what you meant to imply by the bolded statement below?

What laws would you have been referring to other than those against pedophilia (sexual relationships with a minor by an adult) or statutory rape?

Being so-called 'friends' with a minor child, and an adult having their needs met by a minor child, even if this begins as a need for non-physical companionship, even, and especially if this is 'emotional' and/or psychological need and desires, is not an acceptable explanation.

Wrong, Wrong, WRONG on every level.

That is why there are laws....

I believe that it is actually very typical, in situations when it is an older female with a minor boy, for the female, usually upper 20's thru their 30's the whole 'being a teen again, reliving one's youth, etc...' is most often a huge factor.

I have a teen son, and these views def. apply to him as much as they would a teen girl.

And, IMHO, any mention of religion means absolutely NOTHING.
There is no justification here at all.
Two people can share religious views and religious organizations, and religious groups/friends without engaging in an inappropriate one-on-one personal relationship.

 

[NHdisneylover]

So the kid is 16-18 and somewhat resentful of/at odds with his parents.

This is abnormal how?

He has a 28 female friend who he sees once a week and texts during the week. But he's also spending time with people his own age. Mom and dad met the woman, threw out some statements designed to get a reaction. Son didnt react with jealousy at the thought of 28 year old meeting other males. 28 year old was receptive to meeting other males.

Other than her chronological age, there wouldn't be a problem with this relationship. Her actual level of maturity may be closer to the 17 year old than a 28 year old. She sounds as if shes been, and continues to be, quite sheltered. It sounds like men practicing their religion mature kind of quickly, marry young, have a house and be prepared to be the head of a household.

My thought exactly!

I have two teens and I love them dearly and we get along very well the vast majority of the time, and I STILL thought that. It is developmentally appropriate for teens to be forming their own thoughts and values and have a bit of conflict with parents from time to time.

 

[luvsJack]

I would say it is an intimate relationship

especially if we go by something like that which was suggested over the last couple of pages, i.e. the sharing of the commonality of their religion that few others understand or can relate to, etc.

"an intimate friend is someone who you know very well and like very much"

That would describe most sets of friends. If I don't know someone very well or like them very much I wouldn't even call them "friend".

Using that definition, ok, I concede that we can call it "intimate". Still don't think that makes it necessarily inappropriate.

Being that this girl has been raised very differently than most of us, I don't really think we are in a position to say.

 

[roseaster]

OP, and everyone else:

How would you feel if this were your 16 year old daughter and a 28 year old man?