Would you let a principal know if one of her teachers told the kids...

[WeLoveLilo05]

There's nothing wrong with it being incorporated into the ELA curriculum once in a while, however every month my dd has more art project and less writing project due for ELA, and thats too much for her grade level. They need to learn how to write creatively using proper grammar and sharpen their writing skills as the year progresses, they do not need to know how to make a model of a Greek Goddess, that can be done in art. You also mentioned something about testing, and arts and crafts has no business being incorporated into an English Language Arts test for 6th grade students who are trying to prepare for junior high. If you are a student who does better at that kind of "test" or you can't do the expected written work in that class then I would argue that you do not belong in a class where that is (or in our school's case, should) be expected of you, you would do much better in a lower level with an IEP.

But many students with IEPs are mainstreamed into a "regular" class.

I am a firm believer in Gardner's Multiple intelligences, I for one, am awful in math, but I recall in H.S. having to create a board game using algebraic terms with poster board, markers, etc. I got an A, I was expected to know X amount of terms and solve X amount of equations, like what would be on a test, but in a board game, had it been on a test, I would have failed. People just LEARN differently and instruction should be differentiated for all students, not just those with IEPs.

Gardner's Multiple Intelligences

"Visual-Spatial - think in terms of physical space, as do architects and sailors. Very aware of their environments. They like to draw, do jigsaw puzzles, read maps, daydream. They can be taught through drawings, verbal and physical imagery. Tools include models, graphics, charts, photographs, drawings, 3-D modeling, video, videoconferencing, television, multimedia, texts with pictures/charts/graphs.

Bodily-kinesthetic - use the body effectively, like a dancer or a surgeon. Keen sense of body awareness. They like movement, making things, touching. They communicate well through body language and be taught through physical activity, hands-on learning, acting out, role playing. Tools include equipment and real objects.

Musical - show sensitivity to rhythm and sound. They love music, but they are also sensitive to sounds in their environments. They may study better with music in the background. They can be taught by turning lessons into lyrics, speaking rhythmically, tapping out time. Tools include musical instruments, music, radio, stereo, CD-ROM, multimedia.

Interpersonal - understanding, interacting with others. These students learn through interaction. They have many friends, empathy for others, street smarts. They can be taught through group activities, seminars, dialogues. Tools include the telephone, audio conferencing, time and attention from the instructor, video conferencing, writing, computer conferencing, E-mail.

Intrapersonal - understanding one's own interests, goals. These learners tend to shy away from others. They're in tune with their inner feelings; they have wisdom, intuition and motivation, as well as a strong will, confidence and opinions. They can be taught through independent study and introspection. Tools include books, creative materials, diaries, privacy and time. They are the most independent of the learners.

Linguistic - using words effectively. These learners have highly developed auditory skills and often think in words. They like reading, playing word games, making up poetry or stories. They can be taught by encouraging them to say and see words, read books together. Tools include computers, games, multimedia, books, tape recorders, and lecture.

Logical -Mathematical - reasoning, calculating. Think conceptually, abstractly and are able to see and explore patterns and relationships. They like to experiment, solve puzzles, ask cosmic questions. They can be taught through logic games, investigations, mysteries. They need to learn and form concepts before they can deal with details."
taken from "The Distance Learning Technology Resource Guide," by Carla Lane

 

[luvmy3]

I would say, "what do you think". If a child is not ready to hear the truth, they will usually say "I think he is real". If they really are confused, you can usually head them in the way they wanted to go in the first place. It really should be up to the child when to let go of this particular fantasy.




Why is it that every time this subject it is some kind of huge debate? Why does there have to be all this "teacher's don't have to help with the lie" type of attitude?

The OP wasn't even asking about the teacher telling HER child, she said she was concerned about younger kids. And she wasn't complaining to the principal, just going to comment or shoot a "might want to head this off" kind of thing to a friend. And I would say it depends on just how friendly the OP is with the principal. If you and she have lunch togther and are real buddies and you can say "hey, just wanted to give you a head's up. . ."; then there is nothing wrong with that.

As for what is and is not a teacher's responsiblity, you know what? Teachers do have a responsiblity to the kids, it is just part of the job. And part of that is allowing them to BE kids. If you teach under a certain age, you will have kids that believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Mickey Mouse and rather than causing undue stress or upset for the child, they should find a way to leave all of these out of any discussion or a way around it so that its not sqaushing their belief. It can be done, I know because I have done it.

When a teacher becomes a teacher he/she will just have to accept that there are some things that WILL become within the scope of their responsiblity that may or may not be exactly about educating. Just like any other job is going to, at some point, include things that are not exactly part of a person's job description. IMHO, when you choose to work with children you choose to take on these responsiblities.

Oh, and coloring? We have a college A & P class that uses a color book. And there are reasons for using colors and drawing to express something, the written word is not the only way.

Response to first bolded section:
Teachers 1st responsibility is the education of children, not making sure kids remain kids, not making sure that a lie is protected for the sake of kids being kids. If a 4th grader asked a teacher "Is Santa a myth" do you expect him/her to say "no, he's real" If they asked if unicorns were real would you want them to say "yes" If a student asks if martians are going take over the world, would you expect them to say "yes" all because somewhere there are people who believe such things I'm guessing not, and there is no difference between those myths and Santa. However, a teacher could use their own judgement and answer according to the age and maturity level of their students are, this teacher did this. 10 years old is too old for a teacher to have to "lie" to. I didn't see where the OP said that the teacher did tell a bunch of K students, and I think its pretty insulting to that teacher that someone would just assume that they would need to be warned not to.
Of course the "dense" man comment was just as insulting so I guess when one doesn't think to highly of teacher anyway they would just assume that they don't know how to do their job appropriately and feel the need to warn their friend the principal
Second section:
Did you read any of the subsequence posts, I'm not against crayons, coloring or any other type of artistic expression used in ELA. However, I am against it ALWAYS being used INSTEAD of writing

 

[luvmy3]

But many students with IEPs are mainstreamed into a "regular" class.
I am a firm believer in Gardner's Multiple intelligences, I for one, am awful in math, but I recall in H.S. having to create a board game using algebraic terms with poster board, markers, etc. I got an A, I was expected to know X amount of terms and solve X amount of equations, like what would be on a test, but in a board game, had it been on a test, I would have failed. People just LEARN differently and instruction should be differentiated for all students, not just those with IEPs.

So if the test was made to suit your learning, how is that effective for all the students Why is it okay to "mainstream" your method to fit students with IEPs yet its not okay to expect those students to be able to learn and test like all the rest I do see your point and you are only cementing my own, that students need to be grouped by how they learn, its not fair to ANY of them if the aren't. Unfortunatley budget constraints make that impossible and in my children's school the ones at a disadvantage are the students who need to learn and test in the traditional sense because they aren't being taught and challenged to their full potential. I have taken this thread OT enough and that is why I didn't want to continue the discussion here, its not a simple answer and it certainly doesn't fit into the OP.

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

So if the test was made to suit your learning, how is that effective for all the students Why is it okay to "mainstream" your method to fit students with IEPs yet its not okay to expect those students to be able to learn and test like all the rest I do see your point and you are only cementing my own, that students need to be grouped by how they learn, its not fair to ANY of them if the aren't. Unfortunatley budget constraints make that impossible and in my children's school the ones at a disadvantage are the students who need to learn and test in the traditional sense because they aren't being taught and challenged to their full potential. I have taken this thread OT enough and that is why I didn't want to continue the discussion here, its not a simple answer and it certainly doesn't fit into the OP.

But why set a child up for failure? If you know that a child could get an A say doing a board game but would fail the test (same material just different presentation of the material) then why set the child up for failure? This child who constantly fails is going to fall into the learned helplessness trap, of no matter what I do, I am going to fail so let me just give up now. Maybe giving the kids options say you have to do 4 tests this year but you also have 4 areas of projects to express yourself and to help boost your grade. Why not help kids out that need it?

 

[luvsJack]

Response to first bolded section:
Teachers 1st responsibility is the education of children, not making sure kids remain kids, not making sure that a lie is protected for the sake of kids being kids. If a 4th grader asked a teacher "Is Santa a myth" do you expect him/her to say "no, he's real" If they asked if unicorns were real would you want them to say "yes" If a student asks if martians are going take over the world, would you expect them to say "yes" all because somewhere there are people who believe such things I'm guessing not, and there is no difference between those myths and Santa. However, a teacher could use their own judgement and answer according to the age and maturity level of their students are, this teacher did this. 10 years old is too old for a teacher to have to "lie" to. I didn't see where the OP said that the teacher did tell a bunch of K students, and I think its pretty insulting to that teacher that someone would just assume that they would need to be warned not to.
Of course the "dense" man comment was just as insulting so I guess when one doesn't think to highly of teacher anyway they would just assume that they don't know how to do their job appropriately and feel the need to warn their friend the principal
Second section:
Did you read any of the subsequence posts, I'm not against crayons, coloring or any other type of artistic expression used in ELA. However, I am against it ALWAYS being used INSTEAD of writing

Why take everything to the impossible extreme?? Again, the OP said she was worried about the YOUNGER children, not the 4th graders that included her kid. She said that she knew this teacher and his quirkiness and that it is possible. Its not like she doesn't know the man. Its not that big of a deal and I certainly do not think the man should get into any kind of trouble for it. Again: It would depend on the extent of her "friendliness" with the principal.

I am in the process of becoming a teacher, have a sister and a sil who are teachers and have worked in some level of education for many years. I think very highly of teachers and the job they do. But I also am well aware that when a person decides to be a teacher, especially of younger children, they are taking on much more responsiblity than just educating. Of course educating is their #1 responsibility, I never said it wasn't but it is possible to have more than one responsiblity in a job. I WISH my position only included the responsiblities within my job description.

If a person is asked if something is real by a child and is not sure which way to go, there are easy enough ways to answer them or to lead them into (GASP!! ) thinking for themselves without every actually answering the question. It doesn't have to be a yes or no answer.

I don't put Santa on any level of importance, but just to give another example; many people do not believe in a higher power (God, Allah, whatever). If a teacher does not and her student's family does, what should she say in answer to the same question about that? If a person truly does not believe, would they not think that is a lie/myth too?

Again, the answer would need to steer the child in the direction of thinking for him/herself. This isn't that hard, as long as you continually think toward getting a child to think for themselves, to reason things out and with the realization that all families are different and the beliefs and traditions of those families are going to be of different importance levels. And yes, to some familes the belief of Santa is a very important tradition; maybe not to you or me but again, familes are all different.

To be honest, for the teacher to feel the need to add, "you do know Santa isn't real, don't you" tells me that he had second thoughts of saying it anyway.

If you have such an issue with your child's assignments, why do you not voice your concerns to the teacher? There have been times when I thought a certain grade level needed to be learning "A" but they seemed to be doing too much "B". When I approaced the teacher, I found out that they were learning "A" by using "B' and the students were exactly where they should be. I think using different methods of teaching and using different methods to get the students to the same goal are wonderful. Maybe your child's teacher is teaching outside the box.

 

[jog58]

I don't put Santa on any level of importance, but just to give another example; many people do not believe in a higher power (God, Allah, whatever). If a teacher does not and her student's family does, what should she say in answer to the same question about that? If a person truly does not believe, would they not think that is a lie/myth too?

Again, the answer would need to steer the child in the direction of thinking for him/herself. This isn't that hard, as long as you continually think toward getting a child to think for themselves, to reason things out and with the realization that all families are different and the beliefs and traditions of those families are going to be of different importance levels. And yes, to some familes the belief of Santa is a very important tradition; maybe not to you or me but again, familes are all different.

Well said.

 

[castleview]

So, what are you going to do about it?

Probably nothing. I asked a question and semi-vented. But if he does something stupid like set himself up with a ton of instruments during one of
The after school programs I'm running, I'm probably no longer going to be diplomatic when I tell him to can it.

 

[luvmy3]

Why take everything to the impossible extreme?? Again, the OP said she was worried about the YOUNGER children, not the 4th graders that included her kid. She said that she knew this teacher and his quirkiness and that it is possible. Its not like she doesn't know the man. Its not that big of a deal and I certainly do not think the man should get into any kind of trouble for it. Again: It would depend on the extent of her "friendliness" with the principal.

I am in the process of becoming a teacher, have a sister and a sil who are teachers and have worked in some level of education for many years. I think very highly of teachers and the job they do. But I also am well aware that when a person decides to be a teacher, especially of younger children, they are taking on much more responsiblity than just educating. Of course educating is their #1 responsibility, I never said it wasn't but it is possible to have more than one responsiblity in a job. I WISH my position only included the responsiblities within my job description.

If a person is asked if something is real by a child and is not sure which way to go, there are easy enough ways to answer them or to lead them into (GASP!! ) thinking for themselves without every actually answering the question. It doesn't have to be a yes or no answer.

I don't put Santa on any level of importance, but just to give another example; many people do not believe in a higher power (God, Allah, whatever). If a teacher does not and her student's family does, what should she say in answer to the same question about that? If a person truly does not believe, would they not think that is a lie/myth too?

Again, the answer would need to steer the child in the direction of thinking for him/herself. This isn't that hard, as long as you continually think toward getting a child to think for themselves, to reason things out and with the realization that all families are different and the beliefs and traditions of those families are going to be of different importance levels. And yes, to some familes the belief of Santa is a very important tradition; maybe not to you or me but again, familes are all different.

To be honest, for the teacher to feel the need to add, "you do know Santa isn't real, don't you" tells me that he had second thoughts of saying it anyway.

If you have such an issue with your child's assignments, why do you not voice your concerns to the teacher? There have been times when I thought a certain grade level needed to be learning "A" but they seemed to be doing too much "B". When I approaced the teacher, I found out that they were learning "A" by using "B' and the students were exactly where they should be. I think using different methods of teaching and using different methods to get the students to the same goal are wonderful. Maybe your child's teacher is teaching outside the box.

To put it bluntly, its not the OP's responsibility to be concerned about what her child's teacher MAY say while teaching the younger kids. If you look at her posts talking about this teacher, its obvious she has issues with him, and while she says she's concerned about the kids its hard to imagine its not really just about the teacher. (Again, this is judging by what she has said about him personally). I don't disagree that there are a number of things this teacher could have said, however I don't think he did anything wrong by educating the 4th grade students on the truth. Who knows what he would have said to a bunch of K students, maybe he wouldn't have said anything however for the OP to just assume that he would because he's "dense" (or whatever else she aid) is extremely unfair and judgemental.

 

[peyjax]

And I feel sorry for kids that have parents that think nothing of teachers telling kids that Santa isn't real, It isn't their place to do that.

While I may not go to the principle I would have a problem with it.

Why oh Why do people never see the flip side of this??

It also is not your place to lie to my kid and tell them there is such a thing as Santa. Lets face this and realize this happens more than someone spilling the beans on the truth about Santa. Why do so many people assume that we all lie to our kids? We all don't see it as some cute innocent lie.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

Why oh Why do people never see the flip side of this??

It also is not your place to lie to my kid and tell them there is such a thing as Santa. Lets face this and realize this happens more than someone spilling the beans on the truth about Santa. Why do so many people assume that we all lie to our kids? We all don't see it as some cute innocent lie.

How is Santa not cute or innocent? I understand people of various religions celebrate different things, so I would never push a Pro-Santa Agenda (words I never thought I'd say!), but I don't understand a push for an Anti-Santa Agenda, either? Why bring it up at all?

 

[luvsJack]

To put it bluntly, its not the OP's responsibility to be concerned about what her child's teacher MAY say while teaching the younger kids. If you look at her posts talking about this teacher, its obvious she has issues with him, and while she says she's concerned about the kids its hard to imagine its not really just about the teacher. (Again, this is judging by what she has said about him personally). I don't disagree that there are a number of things this teacher could have said, however I don't think he did anything wrong by educating the 4th grade students on the truth. Who knows what he would have said to a bunch of K students, maybe he wouldn't have said anything however for the OP to just assume that he would because he's "dense" (or whatever else she aid) is extremely unfair and judgemental.

You may not think it was wrong of him to "educate" 4th graders about the truth of Santa, but some parents would think it was very wrong. He is working with a large number of students from just as many families so he needs to be aware of that. He should think before he speaks. It is not the music teacher's place to "educate" about this particular subject. He was talking about leperchauns and should have left the discussion at that. Anyone working with this age kid should be aware that they are all at different places developmentally and some may still be hanging on to what some believe to be childish things (they are, afterall, children). He should respect that. Its not like the belief or nonbelief of Santa is a required skill in 4th grade music.

 

[castleview]

To put it bluntly, its not the OP's responsibility to be concerned about what her child's teacher MAY say while teaching the younger kids. If you look at her posts talking about this teacher, its obvious she has issues with him, and while she says she's concerned about the kids its hard to imagine its not really just about the teacher. (Again, this is judging by what she has said about him personally). I don't disagree that there are a number of things this teacher could have said, however I don't think he did anything wrong by educating the 4th grade students on the truth. Who knows what he would have said to a bunch of K students, maybe he wouldn't have said anything however for the OP to just assume that he would because he's "dense" (or whatever else she aid) is extremely unfair and judgemental.

I will take you along to meet or watch him and you'll get it in just a few minutes.

Regarding the first bolded part - I also have two younger kids in the school so my concerns are personal.

As far as my relationship with the principal goes, I have known her since we were college age. We eventually went our own ways and it was quite amusing that we've caught up again. Currently I'm the P&R director in our town and the school is considered the community building (after hours of course). But since school functions take priority and afterschool programs are part of our offerings, I meet with her once a week to discuss room availability, transporting the kids, procedures, etc. While I'm there, we also talk about the school since I'm a parent of three there. She has done a great job turning the school around and is very adamant about a home-parent-school connection. She often asks if I've heard of any concerns or wants amongst parents she usually doesn't see or wishes would be more involved. She asks because she wants to address it and keep the place moving forward. There are many people besides myself that she speaks to about this. Basically, she's a communicator. I've never complained about a teacher to her, which should tell you a lot regarding my feelings toward the music teacher.

Regarding the second bolded part, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I've said it many times that I don't believe it is his job to educate my kids on certain things - this is one of them. Do I think he did it because he's mean? No. I think he did it because he wasn't thinking...which is a recurring theme with this man. I guarantee if I mentioned it to any of my kid's classroom teachers, they would roll their eyes and not be surprised.

Either way, I'm probably going to do nothing. But my patience and confidence with this guy have worn very thin.

 

[luvsJack]

How is Santa not cute or innocent? I understand people of various religions celebrate different things, so I would never push a Pro-Santa Agenda (words I never thought I'd say!), but I don't understand a push for an Anti-Santa Agenda, either? Why bring it up at all?

My question, too! There are so many different beliefs/traditions/thoughts on something like this that it seems the safest thing to do is not bring it up in the classroom setting.

 

[aprilgail2]

I missed this before and no offense but if my 9 year old (and I have one so I say this with all sincerety) really thought that those charcters we saw at WDW were real, I'd be taking him in for an evaluation

I agree- I can't believe that a 9 year old child would think that any disney character walking around in one of those costumes were real!

 

[MM27]

Teachers are NOT allowed to use behavior in factoring grades. Grades must be based on achievement alone. It is illegal to use behavior when computing grades.

Oh yeah, that's a big one in my school. The kid can be a total you know what and it has nothing to do with their grade at all. We have a behavioral section of the report card where they get S for Satisfactory or N for Needs Improvement and that is the only place where behavior is mentioned. If a child earns an A based on their work, that is what they should be getting.
We have had problems with some of the specials teachers in my school that do base grades on how the kids act and my principal has changed grades when parents have come in to complain because the teacher couldn't back up the grade they put on the report card.

Yes, I would say something to the teacher. I emailed the librarian when she told my 9yr old DD that nothing at Disney world is real, just people in costumes. And I posted on here about it and people thought I was crazy!

I would be more concerned that a nine year old couldn't identify that mice with plastic faces are make believe.

 

[princessmom29]

But why set a child up for failure? If you know that a child could get an A say doing a board game but would fail the test (same material just different presentation of the material) then why set the child up for failure? This child who constantly fails is going to fall into the learned helplessness trap, of no matter what I do, I am going to fail so let me just give up now. Maybe giving the kids options say you have to do 4 tests this year but you also have 4 areas of projects to express yourself and to help boost your grade. Why not help kids out that need it?

Eventually, if they choose to go to college, those kids are going to HAVE to perform on a traditional test in a traditional setting. I am all for teaching to multiple intelligences, and use many different presentation methods in my classroom. I teach college prep courses, and as such part of my responsibility is to prepare these students for college. As such, most of my assessments are traditional pen and paper with different types of responses expected like essay, short answer, and problems to solve.

How is Santa not cute or innocent? I understand people of various religions celebrate different things, so I would never push a Pro-Santa Agenda (words I never thought I'd say!), but I don't understand a push for an Anti-Santa Agenda, either? Why bring it up at all?

I for one don't relish lying to my kid about anything. It makes the whole Santa thing a lot less attractive to me. I really hated to give in and do it, but my I let my Mothe convince me I was scarring her if I didn't.

I agree- I can't believe that a 9 year old child would think that any disney character walking around in one of those costumes were real!

Agreed, for a typical nin year old that is a little much.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Why take everything to the impossible extreme?? Again, the OP said she was worried about the YOUNGER children, not the 4th graders that included her kid.

Where's the indication that the teacher had - or has EVER had - a similar lesson with students in earlier grades?

The OP obviously has a bias against this teacher - he's dense, he's in his own world, he speaks without thinking, and in a lesson/discussion about mythical characters he had the audacity to compare leprechauns to Santa. Yet he can apparently transmit thoughts and ideas clearly, and he has the intelligence to have obtained a college degree - and to continue whatever education is necessary to maintain his teaching certification.

No, I don't think she should 'mention' it to her friend the principal as part of a friendly converstation. That's taking advantage, and it's vindictive and frankly, childish. I don't think it should be addressed to school officials AT ALL. If she feels truly compelled to say anything to him in the course of normal encounters, it should be nonaccusatory.

 

[kaytieeldr]

How is Santa not cute or innocent? I understand people of various religions celebrate different things, so I would never push a Pro-Santa Agenda (words I never thought I'd say!), but I don't understand a push for an Anti-Santa Agenda, either? Why bring it up at all?

Seriously?

• Virtually enslaves elves, contributes to low self-esteem making them feel that because of their sizes they can't get other jobs; forces them to work around the clock, 364 days a year, for just room and board and uniforms... and keeps them stuck up there at the north pole with no entertainment, no alternatives.
• Abuses animals AND shows extreme favoritism.
• Works one night a year.
• Extortion - recipients of purported 'generosity' are expected to behave a certain way
• Bribery - same recipients traditional expected to provide Santa Claus with refreshment in exchange for so-called 'gifts' (etiquette note: "gift", by definition, is freely given with no expectation of getting anything in return)
• Breaking and entering - obtains entry to residences via extremely atypical methods.
• Discriminates based on religion in direct violation of United States (and, likely, many other countries') laws.
• Violates speed limits regularly.

THIS is your "cute and innocent" figure?

 

[ilovejack02]

Seriously?

• Virtually enslaves elves, contributes to low self-esteem making them feel that because of their sizes they can't get other jobs; forces them to work around the clock, 364 days a year, for just room and board and uniforms... and keeps them stuck up there at the north pole with no entertainment, no alternatives.
• Abuses animals AND shows extreme favoritism.
• Works one night a year.
• Extortion - recipients of purported 'generosity' are expected to behave a certain way
• Bribery - same recipients traditional expected to provide Santa Claus with refreshment in exchange for so-called 'gifts' (etiquette note: "gift", by definition, is freely given with no expectation of getting anything in return)
• Breaking and entering - obtains entry to residences via extremely atypical methods.
• Discriminates based on religion in direct violation of United States (and, likely, many other countries') laws.
• Violates speed limits regularly.

THIS is your "cute and innocent" figure?

You have put quite a bit of thought into this .

 

[LaurenLC]

Seriously?

• Virtually enslaves elves, contributes to low self-esteem making them feel that because of their sizes they can't get other jobs; forces them to work around the clock, 364 days a year, for just room and board and uniforms... and keeps them stuck up there at the north pole with no entertainment, no alternatives.
• Abuses animals AND shows extreme favoritism.
• Works one night a year.
• Extortion - recipients of purported 'generosity' are expected to behave a certain way
• Bribery - same recipients traditional expected to provide Santa Claus with refreshment in exchange for so-called 'gifts' (etiquette note: "gift", by definition, is freely given with no expectation of getting anything in return)
• Breaking and entering - obtains entry to residences via extremely atypical methods.
• Discriminates based on religion in direct violation of United States (and, likely, many other countries') laws.
• Violates speed limits regularly.

THIS is your "cute and innocent" figure?

You have made my night!