Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Dean]

Doing some research via phone, so I can’t go too in depth, but the Florida statutes appear to require DVD to only reallocate based on demand.

“The rules and regulations shall also provide for periodic adjustment or amendment of the reservation system by the managing entity from time to time in order to respond to actual purchaser use patterns and changes in purchaser use demand for the accommodations and facilities existing at that time within the plan.”

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0721/Sections/0721.56.html

The POS is very consistent in wording with that info.

I’m tempted to fly out for a day to do a Dvc tour just to see how they respond to various questions.

A tour wouldn't do any good, sales are what they are. They don't have control and they don't have insight. The only way to make it a meaningful trip would be to make an appt with corporate. Given your profession you could ask someone from legal be there and that you want to see the information related to demand and the numbers on the reallocation. They might be reluctant on being forthcoming on the numbers but as I read the statutes, it is within the right to request in this situation.

 

[RobDoc]

From the SSR Master Declaration, Exhibit G, 1.18: "Two-Bedroom Vacation Home shall mean a Vacation Home containing two (2) bedrooms, two (2) bathrooms and a Full Kitchen. Certain of the Two-Bedroom Vacation Homes may be locked-off into One-Bedroom and Studio Vacation Homes as a use convenience only"

Emphasis added.​

 

[mustinjourney]

The POS is very consistent in wording with that info.

A tour wouldn't do any good, sales are what they are. They don't have control and they don't have insight. The only way to make it a meaningful trip would be to make an appt with corporate. Given your profession you could ask someone from legal be there and that you want to see the information related to demand and the numbers on the reallocation. They might be reluctant on being forthcoming on the numbers but as I read the statutes, it is within the right to request in this situation.

I really just want to see how the sales people would respond to different questions, assuming they have been trained on certain questions.

But yes, you are correct that I’d really need to speak to the higher ups to get anywhere.

Only problem is that it would be very diffficult to get a meeting with the legal department short notice, whereas the sales people are typically available day of.

 

[Dean]

I really just want to see how the sales people would respond to different questions, assuming they have been trained on certain questions.

But yes, you are correct that I’d really need to speak to the higher ups to get anywhere.

Only problem is that it would be very diffficult to get a meeting with the legal department short notice, whereas the sales people are typically available day of.

Short notice yes but it shouldn't be that difficult for 2-3 weeks out. The sales staff would be worthless unless you just want to mess with them.

 

[mustinjourney]

Short notice yes but it shouldn't be that difficult for 2-3 weeks out. The sales staff would be worthless unless you just want to mess with them.

I do like watching people squirm.

 

[Wakey]

I was trying to overcome my current DIS obsession and get some housework done. Guess not.

I was cleaning out a closet and ran across a pile of paperwork in a box..... it was stuff from an old wdw trip. Started flipping through it and there was all my info from a DVC tour of Ssr.

The explanation in the sales material is very clear... If they increase points one place, they have to decrease somewhere else to offset and the number of points to use all vacation homes in a calendar year can never increase . It mentions "normal variations which occur in a calendar from year to year" and I specifically remember them saying " leap year " which is logical.

I really just don't even want to hear about "what constitutes a vacation home" etc and even if you tell me that I signed something saying they could do this THAT IS NOT THE WAY THEY REPRESENTED IT! There
are consumer protection laws for a reason. This is from their "Product Understanding checklist". They should not be going out of their way to describe how the points charts CAN'T change it they indeed CAN change.

I get more angry about this every day.

Can you make sure you keep this and post a photo up on here? Could be very important info re a misselling legal action or even what they have done now.

 

[Dean]

I do like watching people squirm.

It's unlikely you'll do that, all that is likely to happen is you'll get upset. When it comes to people skills and manipulation, as a group, timeshares sales people are among the best and can make even the best trial lawyer look like they have Asperger's. They often won't schedule a current member for a tour anyway.

Can you make sure you keep this and post a photo up on here? Could be very important info re a misselling legal action or even what they have done now.

It really has no meaning since this is a fluid document that can and has changed. The changes are a matter of public record on the Orange County website for WDW.

 

[mab2012]

Maximum Reallocation "represents the amount that it would cost to spend a single night in the indicated resort and room size if the points were equal for every night of the year. " (Quoted from the linked article to which you refer.) This has also been published in this thread from the May, 1993 POS at the Disney Vacation Club Resort (now OKW) and for other resorts since.

Maximum Reallocation removes all 'seasons' and has no distinction regarding weekdays or weekends, as every day through the entire year has the same point requirement to make a reservation. At OKW, a Studio during Christmas week would be 15 points per night which would also be the same for the last week in September.

But is maximum reallocation meant to limit the total number of points that can be assigned to a given unit type even while per-night variations in cost do exist? ie. If the cost to book a studio under maximum reallocation is X, does that mean that the weighed average cost of a studio when variations exist must not exceed X? Or is it literally just "if we decided to give up on trying to balance demand on different nights, this is what the point chart would look like"?

If the former, @4luv2cdisney has already shown that BWV studios (at least) are in violation of the maximum allocation limit. And if the latter, then maximum reallocation really has no bearing at all on this conversation (and is rather badly named). Or maybe there's some other interpretation I haven't considered.

 

[skier_pete]

Maximum Reallocation "represents the amount that it would cost to spend a single night in the indicated resort and room size if the points were equal for every night of the year. " (Quoted from the linked article to which you refer.) This has also been published in this thread from the May, 1993 POS at the Disney Vacation Club Resort (now OKW) and for other resorts since.

Maximum Reallocation removes all 'seasons' and has no distinction regarding weekdays or weekends, as every day through the entire year has the same point requirement to make a reservation. At OKW, a Studio during Christmas week would be 15 points per night which would also be the same for the last week in September.

You may not believe it, but that is how DVC was set up from the very first POS and point chart. Maximum Reallocation would cause the Resort to be in balance for all villa types and all seasons. It is a binding rule and NOT an example. It is very doubtful (IMO) that it would ever be used, but it does exist as binding and not an example.

There are many provisions in the early POS which have been changed (Banking deadline changes, lottery for Holiday reservations, changes in BVTC fees, etc.) but the Maximum Reallocation has remained constant since it DOES show the point cost without any seasons or daily distinction which cannot be changed since the number of points sold as any resort cannot be modified except for adding additional accommodations (please note: I did not use the word "Unit").

This is good to know - so how do we find out what the numbers are from the various resorts (besides that one article from 2008). One way that we could determine breach of contract.

But is maximum reallocation meant to limit the total number of points that can be assigned to a given unit type even while per-night variations in cost do exist? ie. If the cost to book a studio under maximum reallocation is X, does that mean that the weighed average cost of a studio when variations exist must not exceed X? Or is it literally just "if we decided to give up on trying to balance demand on different nights, this is what the point chart would look like"?

If the former, @4luv2cdisney has already shown that BWV studios (at least) are in violation of the maximum allocation limit. And if the latter, then maximum reallocation really has no bearing at all on this conversation (and is rather badly named). Or maybe there's some other interpretation I haven't considered.

Well, the average at BWV seems to be around 15.1 or 15.2 - which by the math is still within the limit. I doesn't say that the maximum allocation is 15.00 it says 15. Anything from 14.50 to 15.49 counts as a value of 15 in my book.

 

[mab2012]

Well, the average at BWV seems to be around 15.1 or 15.2 - which by the math is still within the limit. I doesn't say that the maximum allocation is 15.00 it says 15. Anything from 14.50 to 15.49 counts as a value of 15 in my book.

I guess it's my turn to be pedantic. 15, written without a decimal point, is an integer. By definition, an integer has no fractional part. Therefore 15.1 is, in fact, greater than 15.

Further, if the weighted average cost is 15.1, then I might be able to book 9 nights for 135 points, but 10 nights would cost me (on average) 151 points. At least one night of the year would have to be worth more than 15 points, thus violating maximum reallocation. If, in fact, that's what maximum reallocation is meant to define.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

This is good to know - so how do we find out what the numbers are from the various resorts (besides that one article from 2008). One way that we could determine breach of contract.



Well, the average at BWV seems to be around 15.1 or 15.2 - which by the math is still within the limit. I doesn't say that the maximum allocation is 15.00 it says 15. Anything from 14.50 to 15.49 counts as a value of 15 in my book.

from the article..

"This document is part of DVD's disclosure to the Department of Business and Professional Regulation."

Guess we'd have to contact them.

I would agree that there probably is an allowance to round the number down.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

I'd really love to see the maximum reallocation chart for VGF. If they did not include studios and 1 bedrooms on the chart (technically true because there are no dedicated) they would only be limited by the 2 bedroom max reallocation number. Which I know is how someone figured they are calculating it. Thus, how they're getting away with it.

 

[zavandor]

Emphasis added.​

Sure, it's the same thing that @wdrl posted. My replies are here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...20-reallocation.3726101/page-34#post-60133377
and here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...20-reallocation.3726101/page-34#post-60133551

There are many provisions in the early POS which have been changed (Banking deadline changes, lottery for Holiday reservations, changes in BVTC fees, etc.) but the Maximum Reallocation has remained constant since it DOES show the point cost without any seasons or daily distinction which cannot be changed since the number of points sold as any resort cannot be modified except for adding additional accommodations (please note: I did not use the word "Unit").

If you believe so and you are a DVC member you should contact DVCMC and voice your concern, as the maximum reallocation value for studios for some of the resorts have already been violated.
However the SSR POS has a different spelling:

A maximum reallocation of Vacation Points reservation requirements could result in a "leveling" of all seasons, such that Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement would have no variation based upon seasonality or different times of the year. Similarly, a maximum reallocation of Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement could result in a "leveling" of differences in Vacation Point reservation requirement based upon particular Use Days in the week. [...] Therefore, in the event of maximum reallocation as described in the precedent paragraph a Club Member would be required to have annual Home Resort Vacation points of at least 224 Home resort Vacation Points (7 Use Days x 32 Vacation points per Use day)...

I do not take this as imposing a limit but just making an example. However it's possible other POS have different wording. The fact that DVC doesn't publish the POS online for members makes all this discussion much more difficult. We are all probably looking at different versions of the same document too.
Given the feedback from other members I had already included a question about this for the DVCMC management in my blog post. I do appreciate and take all feedback given here very seriously.

Exactly, under FL law (721) it'd have to specifically spell it out for lockout's to be counted as separate. One cannot back into that issue by inference of various wordings.

The POS explicitly defines the locked off rooms as vacation Homes. For me it's compliant with what the Florida Law requires. For you it's not, as I already said we have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[RobDoc]

...

If you believe so and you are a DVC member you should contact DVCMC and voice your concern, as the maximum reallocation value for studios for some of the resorts have already been violated.

I'd like to know which DVC Resort(s) have gone to Maximum Reallocation for their point chart???? There are NONE that I am aware of that are now using Maximum Reallocation where all days of the year are the same for each type of villa, but I could have missed something as I was away last week.

Please provide a link to the point chart(s) for the DVC Resorts which you claim are using Maximum Reallocation and are in violation as a result.

 

[zavandor]

I'd like to know which DVC Resort(s) have gone to Maximum Reallocation for their point chart???? There are NONE that I am aware of that are now using Maximum Reallocation where all days of the year are the same for each type of villa, but I could have missed something as I was away last week.

Please provide a link to the point chart(s) for the DVC Resorts which you claim are using Maximum Reallocation and are in violation as a result.

Studios have been increased so much (thanks to the lockoff premium), that the values in the a maximum reallocation are not valid anymore at some resorts. For example, it is not true anymore that, with the current values, in case of a maximum reallocation the studios at BWV would be 15.
If you think that this doesn't breach the contract, then you agree with me.

 

[DaveNan]

I tried to read as much of the thread as possible but don't seem to find the breakdown of "total" points. Has anyone created a chart showing current number of night within each of the use seasons per room category and multiplied that against the number of points per night to get the yearly total ? In previous re-allocations they also moved nights into and out of seasons while adding weekend points in a single particular season to balance the total. Would love to see the math in order to understand whether there is a serious problem.

I did for Kidani village.

This is good to know - so how do we find out what the numbers are from the various resorts (besides that one article from 2008). One way that we could determine breach of contract.



Well, the average at BWV seems to be around 15.1 or 15.2 - which by the math is still within the limit. I doesn't say that the maximum allocation is 15.00 it says 15. Anything from 14.50 to 15.49 counts as a value of 15 in my book.

The how about AKV?
There are 46 dedicated studios.
Maximum allocation is 15. The total of points needed for a Standard view in a year averages 15.93 points per night, for a Savannah view it averages 20.176 points. No rounding makes that equal 15.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

I'd like to know which DVC Resort(s) have gone to Maximum Reallocation for their point chart???? There are NONE that I am aware of that are now using Maximum Reallocation where all days of the year are the same for each type of villa, but I could have missed something as I was away last week.

Please provide a link to the point chart(s) for the DVC Resorts which you claim are using Maximum Reallocation and are in violation as a result.

They don't have to actually even them out (take away the seasons) but they have to remain at that average.

I have only done the math on BWV standard. Which seems to be pushing the limit at a fraction over 15 but I'd assume that variance is allowable.

The problem is I don't see where we have the charts for ALL of the resorts. But I admit I cannot quite keep up or even remember all that's on this thread.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

I did for Kidani village.

The how about AKV?
There are 46 dedicated studios.
Maximum allocation is 15. The total of points needed for a Standard view in a year averages 15.93 points per night, for a Savannah view it averages 20.176 points. No rounding makes that equal 15.

But at AKV it seems they've lumped all categories together. So you'd have to get the average of all categories combined. And probably include both Kidani and Jambo

 

[wdrl]

I know there are people who don't want to read this, but "maximum reallocation" does not set the maximum amount of points that a vacation home type can cost throughout the year. Just because the word "maximum" is used when talking about a point chart that has no seasons and no weekend/weekday differences doesn't mean that it creates "maximum" point values for the accommodations.

In a maximum reallocation, a resort's total points are equally distributed across all Use Days by vacation home type. Beach Club Villas has just over 3 million points and to fit all of those points on a flattened point chart, DVD assigned 16 points a night to studios, 36 points to one-bedrooms, and 46 points to two-bedrooms. These point assignments were arbitrary; DVD could have just as easily set a higher or lower point value for one vacation home type as long as it made a corresponding change in either or both of the other two types. DVD merely had to find places for 3.0+ million points on BCV's point chart, and by tweaking the weighted values of the three vacation home types it set these point values.

But these point values do not establish a "maximum" Use Day value for each vacation home type. They do not serve to cap the point values of the vacation home types. They do not set a "maximum" number of points that can be allotted to each vacation home type for the entire year. They do not set an "average" value for each vacation home type.

Instead, these values have been used to establish a single Use Day booking "guarantee" (my word) for each vacation home type at each resort. In each resort's master declaration is a section that states "each Club Member will always be eligible to reserve at the Condominium, subject to availability: at least one (1) Use Day in a Studio Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points; at least one (1) Use Day in a One-Bedroom Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points; at least one (1) Use Day in a Two-Bedroom Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points;" etc. The Multi-Site POS has a chart showing these values for all DVC resorts.

As I have said before, the point values set in this section do not represent a "maximum" point value. They do serve as a guarantee (my word) that a resort's point chart will always have at least one Use Day that can be booked for that number of points, or less.

If BCV's point chart was reallocated and there was not at least one day where a studio could be reserved for 16 points, then DVCMC would be in violation of the POS. However, if BCV studios go to 20 points or more for some nights during the year, there is no violation as long as there is a night at 16 points or less on the point chart.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

But at AKV it seems they've lumped all categories together. So you'd have to get the average of all categories combined. And probably include both Kidani and Jambo

And as I type that I realize there's probably nothing that makes them "weight" the categories (as in there are only a handful of value vs hundreds of other higher categories) and is probably exactly why they reduced value studios for a season.