Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

I've no problem some going down, some up if it's justified.
What I've a major problem with is points being manufactured out of thin air, full stop, but moreso if it doesn't benefit members.
I'm still waiting on the explanation and data.......
But that's just it, technically and legally they are not since the lockout's only count as the full unit. It has always cost more to reserve the components separately. It's not much different than the Disney Collection not being a good value exchanging points.
 
What do you think the sentence "unless the timeshare instrument provides that timeshare interests may be separately conveyed in such locked-off portions" means?
As I read the statute you quoted it says that all lockoff's are counted as their full component unless the POS specifically says otherwise. Put another way, the ability to lockoff doesn't make it count separately but the developer, by way of the POS could specify otherwise. They would have to do so specifically and directly, that is not the case with DVC.
 
What do you think the sentence "unless the timeshare instrument provides that timeshare interests may be separately conveyed in such locked-off portions" means?

I think that means the POS from Disney would have to explicitly state that 2 bedroom lock offs are counted as 2 separate villas which, if I understand everything correctly, would likely eliminate any lock off premium because the studio and 1 bedroom would always be counted as separate units. Evidently, Disney's literature doesn't do that because if it did there would never be a lock off premium and all of this would be moot.
 
I think that means the POS from Disney would have to explicitly state that 2 bedroom lock offs are counted as 2 separate villas which, if I understand everything correctly, would likely eliminate any lock off premium because the studio and 1 bedroom would always be counted as separate units. Evidently, Disney's literature doesn't do that because if it did there would never be a lock off premium and all of this would be moot.
There are timeshares where the smaller units add up to the total of the larger unit. All the ones that come to mind have studios, 1 BR standard and 1 BR deluxe a lot closer than DVC. Say the 2 BR is 15000 points the studio might be 6000, the 1 BR 8000 and the full unit 14000 points (thinking of a specific situation for Bluegreen). Usually they are tying sales to individual villas and weeks in that situation even for the points systems as a way to track who owns what. DVC has taken a different approach. Marriott has a system for points where just using points has a built in loss of average around 10% roughly.
 

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered or I'm missing something obvious but what is Disney really gaining by the reallocation? Aren't DVC rooms operating in the high 90% occupancy range already? They can't just create more points to sell on a property and they don't gain anything by making us spend more points for fewer nights.
 
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered or I'm missing something obvious but what is Disney really gaining by the reallocation? Aren't DVC rooms operating in the high 90% occupancy range already? They can't just create more points to sell on a property and they don't gain anything by making us spend more points for fewer nights.
Some would say their gaining breakage inventory to use and sell and some would suggest this is the main goal. My view is their trying to do what's required by the POS, manage demand. But I think we all can agree it's a little weird without an explanation.
 
There are timeshares where the smaller units add up to the total of the larger unit. All the ones that come to mind have studios, 1 BR standard and 1 BR deluxe a lot closer than DVC. Say the 2 BR is 15000 points the studio might be 6000, the 1 BR 8000 and the full unit 14000 points (thinking of a specific situation for Bluegreen). Usually they are tying sales to individual villas and weeks in that situation even for the points systems as a way to track who owns what. DVC has taken a different approach. Marriott has a system for points where just using points has a built in loss of average around 10% roughly.
Ok thanks. Have you seen in other systems reallocations that increased the lockoff premium?
 
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered or I'm missing something obvious but what is Disney really gaining by the reallocation? Aren't DVC rooms operating in the high 90% occupancy range already? They can't just create more points to sell on a property and they don't gain anything by making us spend more points for fewer nights.

The goal of a reallocation is to balance inventory throughout each resort and throughout the year. It is DVCMC's responsibility to accomplish that and reallocation is the method provided. This is spelled out in the FL Statutes as well as in the DVC POS for all resorts.

From FL Statute 721.56 (6):
(6) Prior to offering the multisite timeshare plan, the developer shall create the reservation system and shall establish rules and regulations for its operation. In establishing these rules and regulations, the developer shall take into account the location and anticipated relative use demand of each component site that he or she intends to offer as a part of the plan and shall use his or her best efforts, in good faith and based upon all reasonably available evidence under the circumstances, to further the best interests of the purchasers of the plan as a whole with respect to their opportunity to use and enjoy the accommodations and facilities of the plan. The rules and regulations shall also provide for periodic adjustment or amendment of the reservation system by the managing entity from time to time in order to respond to actual purchaser use patterns and changes in purchaser use demand for the accommodations and facilities existing at that time within the plan. The person authorized to make additions and substitutions during the term of the multisite timeshare plan shall also comply with the requirements of this subsection in ascertaining the desirability of the proposed addition, substitution, adjustment, or amendment and the impact of same upon the demand for and availability of existing plan accommodations and facilities.
History.—s. 12, ch. 93-58; s. 26, ch. 95-274; s. 910, ch. 97-102; s. 41, ch. 2000-302; s. 28, ch. 2004-279; s. 12, ch. 2015-144.
 
There are timeshares where the smaller units add up to the total of the larger unit. All the ones that come to mind have studios, 1 BR standard and 1 BR deluxe a lot closer than DVC. Say the 2 BR is 15000 points the studio might be 6000, the 1 BR 8000 and the full unit 14000 points (thinking of a specific situation for Bluegreen). Usually they are tying sales to individual villas and weeks in that situation even for the points systems as a way to track who owns what. DVC has taken a different approach. Marriott has a system for points where just using points has a built in loss of average around 10% roughly.

Sure, I understand that. It has just been my impression that DVC didn't do that in their contracts.
 
Ok thanks. Have you seen in other systems reallocations that increased the lockoff premium?
I've seen very few that have had reallocations. Most systems aren't set up to even allow it. As I noted, many of them have the points tied to a specific fixed week option so it's not possible which means they can't adjust. To me this comes under the other side of the "DVC isn't like other timeshares" argument. They knew they didn't really know how this would play out, all you have to do is look at the BWV and OKW points charts to understand that. So it's a double edged sword. But we've had several. now, 3 big ones if you could 2010/11 as one. Every time the response here was the basic response. They can't , it isn't allowed, I new it could happen but didn't think it would be like this or I didn't think they would at all, I'll sell, I'll complain, I'll sue, I'll bash them and tell everyone not to buy. In the end almost no one does anything. A few sell, a few don't buy because of the change, a few don't add on; but it's small potatoes in the big scheme of DVC. And yet the price keeps going up though it'll pull back at some point.
 
Sure, I understand that. It has just been my impression that DVC didn't do that in their contracts.
Exactly my point which is why the lockoff portion are not protected here. The reality is they could just not allow reservations for smaller units at all related to lockoffs if they wanted. Thus only the dedicated units would be available. Or they could hold them as 2 BR and release the smaller units later if they choose. That would all be legal under the rules & regulations and it would accomplish much the same thing as I suspect is the goal here.
 
Some would say their gaining breakage inventory to use and sell and some would suggest this is the main goal. My view is their trying to do what's required by the POS, manage demand. But I think we all can agree it's a little weird without an explanation.

That's my problem. After writing and talking to them, they refused to explain the reallocation to me by telling me it was proprietary. So what are they trying to hide?
 
Some would say their gaining breakage inventory to use and sell and some would suggest this is the main goal. My view is their trying to do what's required by the POS, manage demand. But I think we all can agree it's a little weird without an explanation.
I think we could further say that Disney would be gaining breakage inventory, if at all (because some percentage will be reserved as 2BR), at the resorts that are least in demand. For example, Now there are more points required to reserve VGF at 11 months for studios and 1 BRs than there are in the system. So owners at other DVC resorts can reserve these units at the 7 month mark, leaving breakage inventory ultimately at the resorts that are lowest in demand.
 
I think we could further say that Disney would be gaining breakage inventory, if at all (because some percentage will be reserved as 2BR), at the resorts that are least in demand. For example, Now there are more points required to reserve VGF at 11 months for studios and 1 BRs than there are in the system. So owners at other DVC resorts can reserve these units at the 7 month mark, leaving breakage inventory ultimately at the resorts that are lowest in demand.

This doesn't explain why the breakage income is capped at all resorts. Taking a resort like BCV or VGF the chances that a room sits empty at 90-60 days is very very low and caused only by a last minute cancellation. Whatever remains empty is often booked at 7 months or shortly after. So why in the resort budget there is a huge contribution from breakage at those resorts? Every year all resorts got the full 2.5% cap.

My theory is that there is a trickle effect from the most in demand resorts to the least in demand. Breakage inventory is rented at resorts like SSR or OKW and then the income split across all resorts according to the origin of the breakage points.
This would explain both the budget and why at OKW and SSR there are huge offers on the UK site for the summer with discount over rack rates and free dining included. It's a way to unload breakage inventory and not affect domestic market.

But others have said it's possible they can anticipate breakage inventory and reserve it at 11 months.

I intend to ask this to DVC when I'll talk with them on Saturday. I have 0 hopes to have a clear answer but I might be surprised.
 
Some would say their gaining breakage inventory to use and sell and some would suggest this is the main goal. My view is their trying to do what's required by the POS, manage demand. But I think we all can agree it's a little weird without an explanation.

It is definitely weird without an explanation. The idea that the studio + 1 BR cost more than a 2 BR is understood. The increase on both of those components implies that they must either be trying to reduce overall demand for studio + 1BR with no offset 2 BR demand increase OR a 2 BR demand increase. Where I get concerned is if it is the former over the latter and they are simply using the 20% yearly increase lever to basically get points out of the system by making a day more expensive for those who would never use anything other than a studio or 1BR. This would tie in to the theory that certain newer resorts are being sold with points that may not ever get used by the owners at a high occupancy rate (Bungalows/Cabins) AND it also ties in to the problem with there being so many smaller contracts.

Speaking of which...

Does anyone know what % of PVB/CCV contracts are large enough to reasonably assume they might be used for bungalow or cabin bookings? How does that compare to the ratio of points allocated to each? Would be interesting to see just how far off they are.
 
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It is definitely weird without an explanation. The idea that the studio + 1 BR cost more than a 2 BR is understood. The increase on both of those components implies that they must either be trying to reduce overall demand for studio + 1BR with no offset 2 BR demand increase OR a 2 BR demand increase. Where I get concerned is if it is the former over the latter and they are simply using the 20% yearly increase lever to basically get points out of the system by making a day more expensive for those who would never use anything other than a studio or 1BR. This would tie in to the theory that certain newer resorts are being sold with points that may not ever get used by the owners at a high occupancy rate (Bungalows/Cabins) AND it also ties in to the problem with there being so many smaller contracts.

Speaking of which...

Does anyone know what % of PVB/CCV contracts are large enough reasonably assume they might be used for bungalow or cabin bookings? How does that compare to the ratio of points allocated to each? Would be interesting to see just how far off they are.

I have been to many DVC events in DCL, and when they were selling Poly points, the thrust was buy Poly, use the wonderful studios that are so large and sleep 5, BUT look you can also end your stay in a wonderful bungalow. They were emphasizing a night in a bungalow. That idea did not appeal to me.

They do not say the same about cabins.
 
So, for a resort like BWV, I guess the sky's the limit then because all t he 2 beds are lock offs. They can just eventually have a point chart with a million more points than they sold ?

There has to be something that prevents this.

No it's the opposite - BWV has a lot of dedicated studios and 1-beds too, so they are limited. Resorts like SSR and VGF where there are NO dedicated studios have really no limit on what they raised the studios and 1-beds...except that they ARE still limited because you can't raise the studios higher than the 2-beds. They could in theory go to studios = 1-beds = 2-beds, but that's probably a bridge they won't cross.
 
I don't understand if the purpose is to push people to 2 bedrooms. Most people booking especially the studios would not even need a 2 bedroom, so it's not going to accomplish that. I'm at least partially not buying that theory.
 
This doesn't explain why the breakage income is capped at all resorts. Taking a resort like BCV or VGF the chances that a room sits empty at 90-60 days is very very low and caused only by a last minute cancellation. Whatever remains empty is often booked at 7 months or shortly after. So why in the resort budget there is a huge contribution from breakage at those resorts? Every year all resorts got the full 2.5% cap.

My theory is that there is a trickle effect from the most in demand resorts to the least in demand. Breakage inventory is rented at resorts like SSR or OKW and then the income split across all resorts according to the origin of the breakage points.
This would explain both the budget and why at OKW and SSR there are huge offers on the UK site for the summer with discount over rack rates and free dining included. It's a way to unload breakage inventory and not affect domestic market.

But others have said it's possible they can anticipate breakage inventory and reserve it at 11 months.

I intend to ask this to DVC when I'll talk with them on Saturday. I have 0 hopes to have a clear answer but I might be surprised.

In 2016 in the UK I booked an OKW cash reservation, 2 bed, 6 people, free dining for August. Cost me £2800 or around $4400 with the exchange rate as it was then, for a week. That included adult table service dining for 6 and they also gave me a $200 gift card back.
Must have been breakage. I was delighted with that value.
 
The goal of a reallocation is to balance inventory throughout each resort and throughout the year. It is DVCMC's responsibility to accomplish that and reallocation is the method provided. This is spelled out in the FL Statutes as well as in the DVC POS for all resorts.

From FL Statute 721.56 (6):
(6) Prior to offering the multisite timeshare plan, the developer shall create the reservation system and shall establish rules and regulations for its operation. In establishing these rules and regulations, the developer shall take into account the location and anticipated relative use demand of each component site that he or she intends to offer as a part of the plan and shall use his or her best efforts, in good faith and based upon all reasonably available evidence under the circumstances, to further the best interests of the purchasers of the plan as a whole with respect to their opportunity to use and enjoy the accommodations and facilities of the plan. The rules and regulations shall also provide for periodic adjustment or amendment of the reservation system by the managing entity from time to time in order to respond to actual purchaser use patterns and changes in purchaser use demand for the accommodations and facilities existing at that time within the plan. The person authorized to make additions and substitutions during the term of the multisite timeshare plan shall also comply with the requirements of this subsection in ascertaining the desirability of the proposed addition, substitution, adjustment, or amendment and the impact of same upon the demand for and availability of existing plan accommodations and facilities.
History.—s. 12, ch. 93-58; s. 26, ch. 95-274; s. 910, ch. 97-102; s. 41, ch. 2000-302; s. 28, ch. 2004-279; s. 12, ch. 2015-144.

So does 'good faith' mean we just trust the timeshare company with no explanation required.
 


















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