Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[GrnMtnMan]

2BR demand is not lower than 1BR demand; that in fact 1BR is consistently the among the last rooms to book up

I haven't read through the 20+ pages of posts, but I'm curious how this is known to be fact? Is this just assumed to be true based on anecdotes here on the Dis, or is there data somewhere that shows the nightly occupancy rates of units/resorts/unit types.

 

[Madame]

Then i suggest you design and build a vacation club and run it the way you want to run. Disney answers to share holders...not vacation club owners.

sorry...not trying to be a jerk...just the facts here

I’m not trying to be a jerk either, but do you understand that there is a difference between Disney, DVC & DVD. Seriously, no snark.

ETA nevermind, I don’t really care to educate any more members on the difference & am tired of trying to get people to care. Too much like my job.

 

[Jerry5788]

But now a studio can get (91) families with 4-day stays vs (72) families making 5 day stays per studio. The 5th day is a cheaper, less profitable ticket.
At Disneyland, they stopped selling 6+ day tickets, they want a new family in the parks vs a longer stay.

I like this idea - still don’t get where the breakage points materialize from but I like it

 

[hakepb]

I haven't read through the 20+ pages of posts, but I'm curious how this is known to be fact? Is this just assumed to be true based on anecdotes here on the Dis, or is there data somewhere that shows the nightly occupancy rates of units/resorts/unit types.

The only hard data we have is VGF 2BR..and it seems VGF has better 2BR booking availability than studios and 1BR:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/p...-studios-1-bedrooms-june-2018-update.3689931/

 

[DSLRuser]

I’m not trying to be a jerk either, but do you understand that there is a difference between Disney, DVC & DVD. Seriously, no snark.

ETA nevermind, I don’t really care to educate any more members on the difference & am tired of trying to get people to care. Too much like my job.

yes i know the difference......in the long run....it all rolls up hill to the big stock ticker.

I have a model of the points in my own spreadsheet.....they can manipulate the points all they want......most people dont realize......we are dealing with millions of points at a single property. unless you look at it on that scale...yes...it does appear they create points out of thin air. but I assure you...they are not.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I like this idea - still don’t get where the breakage points materialize from but I like it

They come from you and from me and everyone else who might book a studio or 1BR at resorts that have lockoffs.

yes i know the difference......in the long run....it all rolls up hill to the big stock ticker.

I have a model of the points in my own spreadsheet.....they can manipulate the points all they want......most people dont realize......we are dealing with millions of points at a single property. unless you look at it on that scale...yes...it does appear they create points out of thin air. but I assure you...they are not.

Then I don't think you understand the lockoff premium if "create points" refers to what it takes to book the entire resort. They are creating points out of thin air and to quite a handsome amount for 2020. The only way they are not is if all of the lockoffs book as 2BR's. But since several of the resorts only get studios and 1BR's from lockoffs that is not what happens. They always have done this but they are increasing that premium which for the most part is not what they did in 2010/2011.

 

[wdrl]

Just a couple of comments:

First Comment: As others have stated, the lock off premium has been part of DVC since Day 1. The original OKW documents from January 6, 1992, show that studios and one-bedrooms, when booked separately, always cost more than the two-bedroom vacation homes.

Some want to argue about the validity of the lock off premium. But maybe the real issue should be the amount of the lock off premium. Should the premium be 1%? 2%? 20%? 25%? Does anyone know what the historical lock off premiums have been at the DVC resorts? For example, does anyone know what the lock off premium was for the Dream Season at Beach Club Villas in 2010, and what the lock off premium will be for BCV's Dream Season in 2020? Its interesting to view the data over time.

Second Comment: Be careful when trying to interpret Florida Statute 721. Keep in mind that even though the Statute is the foundation for how timeshares are governed, there are usually rulings and guidance offered by State regulators that interpret and explain how the Statute is applied.

As @Dean stated in his Post #370, much of Florida's timeshare statute was written initially for timeshares that offer fixed week accommodations. The statute hasn't really been rewritten to specifically address the differences in how a variable point timeshare system operates. But still, Statute 721 guides regulators in overseeing variable point timeshare systems.

Case in point, the part of Statute 721.05 that states "(41) Timeshare unit' means an accommodation of a timeshare plan which is divided into timeshare periods." cannot be applied literally to DVC's variable point system. In the DVC system, the term "Unit" has a different meaning and a different purpose than in a traditional fixed week timeshare system. Also, a variable point system really doesn't have "timeshare periods" in the same manner as a fixed week timeshare system. Don't misconstrue that to mean that DVC is absolved from following the Statute regarding the concepts of "Unit" and "timeshare period" in its system. All I am saying that there are different ways that variable point timeshare systems operate compared to the traditional fixed week systems.

Florida Statute 721 isn't the only instrument that is more at home with fixed week timeshare systems than DVC's variable point system. The Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulations issues licenses for the timeshares in the State of Florida. When it issued licenses to Disney for its DVC resorts, the licenses are not issued in terms of variable points. They are the number of timeshare weeks. The number of timeshare weeks is determined by the number of vacation homes multiplied by 51. For example, since Copper Creek Villas & Cabins has 184 vacation homes, it has a license for 9,384 timeshare weeks, not for 3,321,966. BTW, a lock off two-bedroom is counted as a single vacation home by DB&PR. Somehow, some way, those 9,384 timeshare weeks become 3,321,966 points in the DVC system. Somehow, some way, Florida's regulators make DVC's variable point system fit the regulations.

If we want to play at being legal analysts, then we need to know more, a lot more, than by just reading Florida Statute 721.

 

[Jerry5788]

They come from you and from me and everyone else who might book a studio or 1BR at resorts that have lockoffs.



Then I don't think you understand the lockoff premium if "create points" refers to what it takes to book the entire resort. They are creating points out of thin air and to quite a handsome amount for 2020. The only way they are not is if all of the lockoffs book as 2BR's. But since several of the resorts only get studios and 1BR's from lockoffs that is not what happens. They always have done this but they are increasing that premium which for the most part is not what they did in 2010/2011.

To my knowledge Disney can only book rooms with the residual interest that they own. They can rent beyond this but have not read about the % limited that creates. The popular resorts are 100% meaning people at other resorts book at 7 month mark or other people are borrowing.

I imagine Disney can not go beyond their % of points until An unknown X number of days. What that is I am not sure but I’d have to speculate it’s at least a month or two after the 7 month mark. Could be wrong but I’d be shocked if they could grab rooms sooner.

In this scenario they are renting points out at less desireable resorts such as SSR or Poly bungalows. Having said that they would only be creating points out of thin air at these resorts and increasing availability at 7 month mark so you can actually use other premium resorts.

I would thereby argue that is in the best interest of DVC as these rooms wouldly likely go unrented and creates income to give back to resorts. Disney also consistently raising the rack rate at these resorts despite getting these “free points” which increases the economics and resale values of DVC.

The one issue I have on this is they announced this info right after moving maintenance a lot. I will only be annoyed if they don’t raise rack rates when SWGA launches by as much as I anticipate

 

[RobDoc]

To my knowledge Disney can only book rooms with the residual interest that they own. They can rent beyond this but have not read about the % limited that creates. The popular resorts are 100% meaning people at other resorts book at 7 month mark or other people are borrowing.

I imagine Disney can not go beyond their % of points until An unknown X number of days. What that is I am not sure but I’d have to speculate it’s at least a month or two after the 7 month mark. Could be wrong but I’d be shocked if they could grab rooms sooner.

In this scenario they are renting points out at less desireable resorts such as SSR or Poly bungalows. Having said that they would only be creating points out of thin air at these resorts.

I would thereby argue that is in the best interest of DVC as these rooms wouldly likely go unrented and creates income to give back to resorts. Disney also consistently raising the rack rate at these resorts despite getting these “free points” which increases the economics and resale values of DVC.

DVCMC can also rent DVC Resort accommodations using points already used by DVC Members for non-DVC rental options (DCL, Concierge Collection, Disney Collection). The income from those rentals is used to 'pay' for the non-DVC rental option used.

Most of the 2-4% of points owned by DVC is used for accommodations taken out of service for maintenance, renovation, etc. but they can also certainly use undeclared sales inventory, points from foreclosed, and ROFR'ed contracts.

 

[ericar]

I have to say I've really enjoyed this thread - while I myself still red flag the (mostly) raising of 1-bedroom point requirements via the lock-off premium that make me want to call "Shenanigans" on Disney, I can now see the other side of the argument that they are trying to rebalance to more 2-bedrooms and lower costs in magic season. Perhaps the feel was this could not be done by simply shifting points from 2-beds to studios, and therefore they had to shift some to 1-beds.

I still say that raising lock-off premiums is shady business.

Agreed. "Shady Business" is exactly right no matter if it is legal or not this is not the way I would expect Disney to act.
As a new DVC member this year I am disappointed with the large jump in yearly dues and this sneaky point reallocation.
Not a good start to my membership.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

To my knowledge Disney can only book rooms with the residual interest that they own. They can rent beyond this but have not read about the % limited that creates. The popular resorts are 100% meaning people at other resorts book at 7 month mark or other people are borrowing.

I imagine Disney can not go beyond their % of points until An unknown X number of days. What that is I am not sure but I’d have to speculate it’s at least a month or two after the 7 month mark. Could be wrong but I’d be shocked if they could grab rooms sooner.

In this scenario they are renting points out at less desireable resorts such as SSR or Poly bungalows. Having said that they would only be creating points out of thin air at these resorts and increasing availability at 7 month mark so you can actually use other premium resorts.

I would thereby argue that is in the best interest of DVC as these rooms wouldly likely go unrented and creates income to give back to resorts. Disney also consistently raising the rack rate at these resorts despite getting these “free points” which increases the economics and resale values of DVC.

The one issue I have on this is they announced this info right after moving maintenance a lot. I will only be annoyed if they don’t raise rack rates when SWGA launches by as much as I anticipate

Doc mentioned other reasons why DVC can rent out Villas (ie, points). The part I highlighted is what would be known as breakage and income from that is limited as to how much is credited back to the associations. That budget line has maxed out for quite some time so there's no more for the associations to gain from having more breakage. The remainder of the income all goes back as revenue to the DVC management. So they would be the ones to gain from it. This revenue is pretty free and clear other than covering the booking cost because owners have paid for the maintenance on those points. So, no monetary benefit to owners for there to be more breakage.



@Dean - in more than one location the POS mentions that to the extent permitted each DVC resort has the right to forecast anticipated reservation and use of the accommodations....and is authorized to reasonably reserve, deposit or rent the accommodation of each DVC resort for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use etc...... This may have been what you had referenced before? If so, it still exists and once is listed before explaining breakage and once after. I think I saw another spot where it was within the same paragraph as breakage but would have to search for that again.

 

[Jerry5788]

Doc mentioned other reasons why DVC can rent out Villas (ie, points). The part I highlighted is what would be known as breakage and income from that is limited as to how much is credited back to the associations. That budget line has maxed out for quite some time so there's no more for the associations to gain from having more breakage. The remainder of the income all goes back as revenue to the DVC management. So they would be the ones to gain from it. This revenue is pretty free and clear other than covering the booking cost because owners have paid for the maintenance on those points. So, no monetary benefit to owners for there to be more breakage.

Correct but the breakage of points directly creates benefits other resort holders at 7 months then it does Disney directly st your resort. The money they are making are at Ssr which I imagine are non premier season as those book up. Which likely wouldn’t be rented anyway.

I’m saying breakage creates more opportunities at 7 months to cross stay at other resorts. Unless you tell me Disney can rerent breakage points in the 7-11 month window.

As I’ve mentioned I think breakage is good creates more studio units then would otherwise be available if we only had dedicated units.

 

[mjr0483]

So does it appear that DVC is within their rights to do what they did or are they in breach of contract?

Or does it need to be litigated to determine?

 

[glamdring269]

But now a studio can get (91) families with 4-day stays vs (72) families making 5 day stays per studio. The 5th day is a cheaper, less profitable ticket.
At Disneyland, they stopped selling 6+ day tickets, they want a new family in the parks vs a longer stay.

What you’re saying makes complete sense if it actually works out where every day not utilized by the original family is definitely consumed in another way. Which really begs the question: Are those extra 19 families DVC or Cash?

 

[Jerry5788]

What you’re saying makes complete sense if it actually works out where every day not utilized by the original family is definitely consumed in another way. Which really begs the question: Are those extra 19 families DVC or Cash?

DVC at popular resorts and cash at others

 

[Matty B13]

As someone who is a newer owner, bought in 2016 right after the new resale restrictions , and only stayed at DVC resorts during magic season (only in 2 bedroom units). I would say the resorts don't feel very busy during this time of year, and we had no problem getting a 2 bedroom unit at BCV in April in 2018 but had problem getting a 1 bedroom or studio for my sister family at the 7 month booking mark. So I wonder if the data on the ease of booking 1 bedroom units is a little off, or if it is only during magic season, especially over 2 bedroom units.

Maybe we aren't seeing the demand data for the studios and 1 bedroom units that DVC is seeing....... or they just want to sell more points.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

As someone who is a newer owner, bought in 2016 right after the new resale restrictions , and only stayed at DVC resorts during magic season (only in 2 bedroom units). I would say the resorts don't feel very busy during this time of year, and we had no problem getting a 2 bedroom unit at BCV in April in 2018 but had problem getting a 1 bedroom or studio for my sister family at the 7 month booking mark. So I wonder if the data on the ease of booking 1 bedroom units is a little off, or if it is only during magic season, especially over 2 bedroom units.

Maybe we aren't seeing the demand data for the studios and 1 bedroom units that DVC is seeing....... or they just want to sell more points.

I've said this elsewhere but from my observations in the newer, high point requirement resorts the 1BR's do book faster leaving 2BR's vs older resorts. 1 - they have 5 actual sleeping spaces so it fits a certain group that would like more sleeping spaces and more amenities for a lower cost than the 2BR's. Also, if studios are booked up and you'd otherwise want the studio it's next in line vs going up to what were quite expensive 2BR's. And 50 points just isn't getting you into a 2BR at those resorts. If you can't get a studio then the 1BR's were your next best option albeit cutting your stay in half.

But older resorts where there are only 4 sleeping spaces and the point requirements are not so steep - that's where the 1BR's seem to last. Contracts were probably bigger at those resorts because minimums were in the 150-160 range, not 50 pts so there's more points that owners have to play around with.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

A little OT - I went back to the 2010 charts thread and was quickly reminded of the 100% annoying marketing spin that accompanied any and all changes back then. Though DVC just did a tiny blurb on the charts with this one and would probably do better to explain more, what accompanied the 2010 charts said that if demand was high they lowered the point requirements. Of course weekends were sitting there available because of the high point requirements which is why they reduced the points for them and no weekdays would be available because people were really working the lower point requirements so they increased them.

"Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

To help address a growing Member interest in weekend stays at Disney Vacation Club Resorts, Disney Vacation Club has adjusted 2010 Vacation Points charts, reducing Vacation Point requirements for Friday and Saturday nights.

In addition to better reflecting the changes in Members' vacationing patterns, the adjusted charts make accommodations more affordable during many popular Walt Disney World® events, such as Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party and ESPN The Weekend.

To make this change possible, Vacation Point requirements for some instances of Sunday-Thursday stays are now higher. However, a full week's stay will essentially cost the same amount of Vacation Points as before.

To view the adjusted Vacation Points charts, click on the "View Vacation Points Charts" link in the "Plan My Vacation" section of this Web site (located on the right side of the page)."

 

[bobbiwoz]

A little OT - I went back to the 2010 charts thread and was quickly reminded of the 100% annoying marketing spin that accompanied any and all changes back then. Though DVC just did a tiny blurb on the charts with this one and would probably do better to explain more, what accompanied the 2010 charts said that if demand was high they lowered the point requirements. Of course weekends were sitting there available because of the high point requirements which is why they reduced the points for them and no weekdays would be available because people were really working the lower point requirements so they increased them.

"Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

To help address a growing Member interest in weekend stays at Disney Vacation Club Resorts, Disney Vacation Club has adjusted 2010 Vacation Points charts, reducing Vacation Point requirements for Friday and Saturday nights.

In addition to better reflecting the changes in Members' vacationing patterns, the adjusted charts make accommodations more affordable during many popular Walt Disney World® events, such as Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party and ESPN The Weekend.

To make this change possible, Vacation Point requirements for some instances of Sunday-Thursday stays are now higher. However, a full week's stay will essentially cost the same amount of Vacation Points as before.

To view the adjusted Vacation Points charts, click on the "View Vacation Points Charts" link in the "Plan My Vacation" section of this Web site (located on the right side of the page)."

We were definitely helped by the lowering of weekend points. I worked part time and generally we booked 3-4 night long weekends. We had bought planning weekend stays. I remember the outcry from those who bought for 5 weekday night stays.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

We were definitely helped by the lowering of weekend points. I worked part time and generally we booked 3-4 night long weekends. We had bought planning weekend stays. I remember the outcry from those who bought for 5 weekday night stays.

We were pretty neutral with it since we tend to go 6-7 nights.