Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Dean]

It's been beyond that for several years now.

Now anything and everything has to be spelled out and broke down and many dollars and man hours spent doing it so that the consumer isn't taken advantage of - even by themselves.

How timeshares get away with it still in this day and age is amazing other than they must have deep lobbying pockets and overall slimy reputations so I guess that lawmakers feel consumers are already warned. I'm not saying that Disney is being slimy but there are a lot of consumer protection laws out now that are simply aimed at protecting consumers from themselves.

You can’t spell out everything. It’s impossible!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

You can’t spell out everything. It’s impossible!

That is true but you can cover the big stuff and be careful about how things are represented. In this case with the lock-off premium it's not really being straight forward to say that total points can't change because they can in the most meaningful way - the points that are required to book studios and 1BR's.

 

[kgeary]

following

 

[Turn the Page]

I did my research. Never saw lockoff premium mentioned, and there's no obvious mention in the POS that points can be manufactured out of thin air. I'm not convinced it's permitted given some of the analysis on here.
There's also an element of trust here. I bought my timeshare from Disney, not John Palmer (Google it). With the latter, I'd expect to be taken advantage of, which is why I had no interest in any timeshare but Disney. The brand and trust is everything here.
DVC is so powerful a product simply because of the trust element and quality. Otherwise it becomes just like any other timeshare. I can buy a Marriott for $1.
The rest are tarred with that 'timeshare is a con' brush, some unfairly. DVC is elevated above that.
I don't recall anyone, in my hundreds of hours of research and reading about DVC over the years, saying anywhere that 'Watch out because subject to a 20% annual limit, DVCMC can increase all studios and 1 beds in lockoffs- (which by the way means all of them at Saratoga)- ad infinitum with no balance necessary elsewhere'.
So now I'm thinking what happens if every year going forward for the next 5,10,20 years DVCMC decide to just keep increasing the points on studios and 1 beds? Acceptable? All OK? Consumer deserves no protection?
And no, I don't see why I should sell my DVC which I enjoy greatly and have invested a lot of money in.
DVCMC have a duty to act in our interests, as the management employed by the members' club. Hopefully they are doing that, but I'm still waiting for the explanation with data to demonstrate their actions were for our benefit.

I don't mean to be snarky here, I am genuinely asking. You say in all your extensive research you never saw a lock off premium mentioned. Did you not look at a point chart? It is clearly listed in the 2019 point charts that a studio and 1 bdrm require more points than a 2 bdrm.

I guess I am just confused about what the brouhaha is. Is the central issue that the lock off premium has been increased? Because from what I can tell it has always (or at least it currently exists in the 2019 point charts) existed, it just wasn't as bad as it will be in 2020.

 

[glamdring269]

We are an adult couple so really have no reason for more than a studio. I could see a 1br maybe but either way we would never need a 2br or treehouse or bungalow.... etc.

With that said, why would a 2br person want a studio/1br instead of just booking a 2br? Perhaps that is part of the equation here I’m missing if the point is to push more 2br bookings. I book studios so am obviously not the one they’re trying to influence here but am adversely affected. Simply trying to understand it a bit better.

 

[ParkHoppers]

This is a great thread and I am grateful to all who have looked into the legality of what was done. I personally think they wouldn’t have done what they did if it wasn’t legal. Once we get to if what was done is legal than the only other question is does it benefit owners overall. Does it help as many as it hurts or is that % even close. If Disney did this more for their benefit than members I just would like to here that from them. We all know Disney would not like those optics. As impressed as I am in all the legal discussions I do feel we might get a little too far into the weeds and distracted from what will actually work to possibly change what is happening. Is this move in the best interest of a large % of DVC owners. To me that is the angle.

 

[DebbieB]

I don't mean to be snarky here, I am genuinely asking. You say in all your extensive research you never saw a lock off premium mentioned. Did you not look at a point chart? It is clearly listed in the 2019 point charts that a studio and 1 bdrm require more points than a 2 bdrm.

I guess I am just confused about what the brouhaha is. Is the central issue that the lock off premium has been increased? Because from what I can tell it has always (or at least it currently exists in the 2019 point charts) existed, it just wasn't as bad as it will be in 2020.

The issue isn't that a 2 bedroom is less than a studio + 1 bedroom. The issue is when they balance the points, they do not count lockoff studios & 1 bedrooms, only the 2 bedroom points count. So they can raise the lockoff studios & 1 bedrooms as much as they want, they don't have to be balanced. Something is wrong when every room goes up except for 2 bedrooms in a couple seasons.

 

[tjkraz]

...does it benefit owners overall. Does it help as many as it hurts or is that % even close.
...
Is this move in the best interest of a large % of DVC owners. To me that is the angle.

That’s not really the best barometer. Imagine DVC announced it was tripling nightly point rates for January - April and the offset is to halve rates in May - December. I suspect the majority of members would be ecstatic. Who wouldn’t love a BCV studio in October for 8 points per night??

The problem is there are few takers for the February Studio that’s now jumped to 50-60 points.

It’s an extreme analogy but it should help drive the point home. Trying to read what “benefits” owners or who is “hurt” by a particular move doesn’t really reflect its necessity. Anecdotally, most owners LOVED when the weekend points were so high—and thus weekdays cheap. The reallocation was very unpopular and “hurt” a lot of owners. But when you’ve got 50-60% of your points spread among weekdays, and (to pick a number) 80% of members attempting to book those weekdays, you’ve got a big problem on your hands.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

I am just finding this all a bit confusing.

How it was explained to us was that they sold /declared/created? 4,872,000ish BWV points and the points charts had to always total that. The logic to that is that is what you "own". Your points represent your portion of ownership so the points (shares) can't change So, suddenly, 20 some years later they can just create more points that belong to nobody?

 

[Dean]

That is true but you can cover the big stuff and be careful about how things are represented. In this case with the lock-off premium it's not really being straight forward to say that total points can't change because they can in the most meaningful way - the points that are required to book studios and 1BR's.

I don't agree, the points differential is in the POS which is already a premium and they list a number of places where they say reallocation can happen unilaterally, without input, unfettered, etc. You can't combat people's assumptions with a timeshare. While the exact change is not spelled out, they hit you multiple times in the POS that changes can occur and in some cases, shall occur.

 

[ParkHoppers]

That’s not really the best barometer. Imagine DVC announced it was tripling nightly point rates for January - April and the offset is to halve rates in May - December. I suspect the majority of members would be ecstatic. Who wouldn’t love a BCV studio in October for 8 points per night??

The problem is there are few takers for the February Studio that’s now jumped to 50-60 points.

It’s an extreme analogy but it should help drive the point home. Trying to read what “benefits” owners or who is “hurt” by a particular move doesn’t really reflect its necessity. Anecdotally, most owners LOVED when the weekend points were so high—and thus weekdays cheap. The reallocation was very unpopular and “hurt” a lot of owners. But when you’ve got 50-60% of your points spread among weekdays, and (to pick a number) 80% of members attempting to book those weekdays, you’ve got a big problem on your hands.

Sure but that reallocation actually seems to make sense to most people even if they didn’t like it. This one with what they did with 1 bedrooms just doesn’t make sense to me. Maybe you could elaborate on why you think the 1 bedroom move makes sense? Maybe if they only increased points on studios that would have made the gap between studio and 1 bedrooms smaller which would push more people from studios to 1 bedrooms? And that is not the push they were looking for?

 

[Dean]

I am just finding this all a bit confusing.

How it was explained to us was that they sold /declared/created? 4,872,000ish BWV points and the points charts had to always total that. The logic to that is that is what you "own". Your points represent your portion of ownership so the points (shares) can't change So, suddenly, 20 some years later they can just create more points that belong to nobody?

Again, the points are legally based on the while units ignoring the points for the smaller portions. So when you bought it already cost more to reserve it some situations than there were points available. This doesn't change that principal. It remains to be seen whether usage will adjust enough that the actual points usage will be neutral but I suspect it will be with some booking a 2BR that would have gone smaller with a larger differential. And it's 2 for 1 with every 2 BR L/O booked taking both a studio and a 1 BR off the market. My guess but I strongly suspect that's the goal. And the other question is whether this is a 2 part change like the 2010/11 reallocation, I'd say that's about 50/50.

 

[Dean]

Sure but that reallocation actually seems to make sense to most people even if they didn’t like it. This one with what they did with 1 bedrooms just doesn’t make sense to me. Maybe you could elaborate on why you think the 1 bedroom move makes sense? Maybe if they only increased points on studios that would have made the gap between studio and 1 bedrooms smaller which would push more people from studios to 1 bedrooms? And that is not the push they were looking for?

My presumption is as above, to push people to 2 BR and have less smaller villas booked at all.

 

[glamdring269]

Which of these is more likely...

1) Studio/1BR points increased in order to drive more people to 2BR+

2) Unsustainable points entered into the system due to Poly Bungalows, CCV Cabins, etc. that were primarily built on the backs of folks who will never have sufficient points to stay there. Therefore ‘manufacture’ higher cost across the entire system via lockoff premium in order to drain points from legacy resorts so that there will be more available 7 month booking options.

I hope it’s 1. Or some number 3 I’m overlooking.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

So, for a resort like BWV, I guess the sky's the limit then because all t he 2 beds are lock offs. They can just eventually have a point chart with a million more points than they sold ?

There has to be something that prevents this.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I don't agree, the points differential is in the POS which is already a premium and they list a number of places where they say reallocation can happen unilaterally, without input, unfettered, etc. You can't combat people's assumptions with a timeshare. While the exact change is not spelled out, they hit you multiple times in the POS that changes can occur and in some cases, shall occur.

We'll disagree that representing something can't change in total when there is definitely the allowance within the POS isn't being forth coming. It's exactly the type of consumer protection interest that has arisen in more recent years. If one asked a DVC representative they will state the point total can't change. MS is apparently giving out that information now. But the POS allows it with the lockoff premium so it is an incomplete answer.

 

[ParkHoppers]

My presumption is as above, to push people to 2 BR and have less smaller villas booked at all.

I think you are probably right. Less points used overall will leave more availability in the system as a whole. I do think availability of standard 2 bedrooms could become a problem though as they were already more popular than 1 bedrooms. I am a 1 bedroom person as you might be able to tell. I will adapt to the changes and 1 bedroom availability will get even better IMO because of the move.

 

[DaveNan]

Well, I just ran a bunch of numbers, and based on the numbers... Here's a specific relative impact increasing the lock-off premium. I did it for AKV Kidani...
Going into the numbers (2020 is a leap year so there is one more day and I ran the numbers with and without that day)
Given what I found
Kidani has 324 room - 60 2BR LO STD, 27 2BR dedicated STD, 109 2BR LO SAV, 112 2BR dedicated SAV, 2 GV std, 14 GV SAV (can range from 324 to 493 each night, possible 169 "premiums")
Using the point tables for 2019 and 2220
2019 2020(366 days) 2020(minus 2/29)
Maximum points available (all 2BR LO booked as studio and 1BR) 5953838 6113649 6096069
Minimum points available (all 2BR LO booked as 2BR) 5593311 5574381 5558469
Breakeven (88% S/1BR 12% 2BR) 5636574 5639093 5622981
50% S/1BR 50% 2BR 5773575 5844015 (+ 1.2%) 5827269 (+0.9%)
75% S/1BR 25% 2BR 5863706 5978832 (+2.0%) 5961669 (+1.7%)

I would guess real booking is 50-75% of the lock-offs get booked as a studio and a 1BR, so Disney "created 1.5-2%" more room with this. I believe that violates the terms

 

[4luv2cdisney]

Is anybody asking these questions on social media where DVC is advertising?

 

[tjkraz]

So, for a resort like BWV, I guess the sky's the limit then because all t he 2 beds are lock offs. They can just eventually have a point chart with a million more points than they sold ?

There has to be something that prevents this.

Boardwalk has dedicated Studio and One Bedroom villas which are part of the calculation. The point totals for Dedicated Studio + Dedicated 1B + Lockoff 2B + Grand Villa must be relatively equal from year-to-year. So no, the sky is not the limit.